What constitutes a good Stroke?

[Bob Jewett]

There is nothing wrong with dropping your elbow, because every professional does it..

Well, yes and no. Most top players drop their elbows about 3 to 4 inches on power shots. One exception to this is Tony Robles who drops his elbow almost not at all even on power shots. Another is Nick vdBerg who drops his elbow so much he often clangs his stick on the rail. I wonder if his knuckles are scarred like mine?

But on soft shots, I think you will find that many top players do not drop their elbows at all. Of course, nine ball is not the best game to look for soft shots.

For more observations, see the February and March 2004 issues of Billiards Digest.

 

[henho]

I love threads like these, I feel that a good stroke is the key point in making someone's game come together.

Let me relate my experience. I used to have a stroke that was almost universally praised as beautiful. The cue moved smooth as butter, not a muscle was tense in my arm, my wrist was looser then you could believe. I did nothing to control the cue, I let it go through the ball. People envied my finesse. However, I couldn't make a damn ball and had no action on the cueball.

Somehow by accident I began using what felt like a highly controlled stroke. The thought kept popping into my head that a good stroke doesnt have to be beautiful, and that they best players in the world are those that control every little thing the cue does down to the finest increment. This more controlled stroke gave me the game I lack and a good amount of action on the cb with ease. Its not as pretty as what I started out with but game is a whole lot better.

It is very difficult to describe the differences between the two strokes, since they are laden with intangibles. However, the main difference is a feeling of controlling everything the cue does versus letting the cue go through the ball on its own (the controlled stroke being the better one). The better stroke feels a little less loose and much more controlled. However, getting large amounts of spin on the ball is as easy as putting more stroke on the cue. Recently I have come to the realization that the main difference between the strokes is the mechanics of the arm and shoulder. With my loose, inefficient stroke, I would allow little pivoting motions of my shoulder joint that were not very visible. It felt like these motions, along with my wrist, ate the power of the cue. With the more controlled stroke my shoulder and upper arm is steady as a rock and my wrist is almost locked (however my grip is still very loose). It feels like by focusing on moving only my arm I am able to transfer more energy to the cueball. I find that when I am out of stroke it is because I am reverting to my old stroke, since it requires less coordinated motion.

 

[Rod]

Another is Nick vdBerg who drops his elbow so much he often clangs his stick on the rail. I wonder if his knuckles are scarred like mine?

I'm an example of that except it's very rare I hit my knuckles. I'm a quick learner. ha ha The forearm of my cue however has some paint chips. If I send it off to get refinished I'll have to start using my break cue again.

Rod

 

[Pelican]

Some folks have a stroke like a sidewinder baseball pitcher. Earthquake comes to mind. He seems to win a fair amount of the time. Anybody on this thread want to play him for money? I'll sit on the rail and take Keith bad stoke and all .

Later, Pel

 

[LastTwo]

Well, yes and no. Most top players drop their elbows about 3 to 4 inches on power shots. One exception to this is Tony Robles who drops his elbow almost not at all even on power shots. Another is Nick vdBerg who drops his elbow so much he often clangs his stick on the rail. I wonder if his knuckles are scarred like mine?

But on soft shots, I think you will find that many top players do not drop their elbows at all. Of course, nine ball is not the best game to look for soft shots.

For more observations, see the February and March 2004 issues of Billiards Digest.

I would have to say Tony Robles is one of the few who doesn't. I've studied this for a long time, wached hundreds of pro players, and 95% of them drop their elbows, at least a few inches on 90% of their shots, with the exception of short distance shots and when they roll the cueball. I was taught by the great Ernesto Dominguez that you should drop your elbow slightly- for every shot, but the trick is to do it right as you make contact. When I drop it too early, I don't get good results. When you keep your elbow in place, and the butt of the cue does not slap your palm, your tip dives down, which gives you a tendency to skid the cueball. I know a few players who do this, and they still shoot very good, and I think it is because of timing. Their timing is so good that their tip is at the spot they are aiming when they make contact, instead of diving down and hitting below the spot they are aiming at on the cueball.

 

[Macint0sh]

I was just wondering wheter you 'no elbow drop' guys, do - or rather did - make a conscious effort to only use the biceps/tricpes when stroking? I'm wondering because I'm working on my stroke, and I have a lot of movement. It's almost so that my cue smacks against the rail on every backstroke. I'm been experimenting with trying to consciously keep my arm still and let the biceps/triceps do the work, but I'm not sure if it's worth the effort to work on it so that it becomes natural. Any thoughts?

 

[drivermaker]

Great thread so far, but i feel like it focuses more on the ingredients of a great stroke rather than the most defining characteristic of a great stroke, and that would be efficiency.

When you watch a player with a very efficient stroke, the odds are you are watching a player with a great stroke.

And in my opinion you can add one more factor to this and that it's repeatable. If you can do the same thing over and over again exactly the same way and you KNOW what kind of result will be produced from your stroke, that's really the key, along with making it perform under pressure. I've seen some beautiful perfect strokes over the years, but I've also seen them fold like paper in nerve racking situations. Regardless of how perfect the stroke looks, it has to be repeatable and hold up under pressure.

 

[CaptainJR]

I sort of thought this thread might take off. Isn't anyone going to congratulate me for starting this one?

I really like how everyone has really tried to help define this thing we call a 'stroke'. To help you folks out that are not quite agreeing, I'll say, when I started this thread I had a pretty good idea that there are more than two or three ways to accomplish a great stroke. So I don't think there is anything anyone is saying here that is wrong.

I've been told I have a good stoke and I guess I knew it because of some of the things I can do with the cue ball. The reason I started this is, I also know that there are two or three different ways I accomplish a good stroke and I think one of the problems I have is I need to reduce that number to ONE. Just one good stroke, rather than switching back and forth to different strokes for different shots. I guess there are occasions that require something a little different, but I do it too much. I think if I can get this under control I'll be able to be more accurate with my position.

 

[LastTwo]

Hello,

The best stoke is the one that puts the money balls down. Nothing else really matters!

"I don't give lessons because I don't know anything" by Luther Lassiter

Chees,

"Gremlin"

There's nothing wrong with learning different variations of the stroke, mechanics is a huge part of the game.

 

[Williebetmore]

Those who would blindly imitate professionals would do well to pick up the Accu-Stats player review tape with Efren Reyes. Bill Staton asks him if the long bridge and elbow drop give the Filipino players an advantage. Efren replies that he plays that way just because he grew up playing that way, and that he thinks he would play better if he had grown up using a more traditional stroke (but, too old to change now).

For newer players, I would recommend getting a good stroke instructor; learn the easiest way. The fewer moving parts in your stroke, the better - anything else and you are fighting entropy. You will not find my elbow dropping - what's the advantage? Any one can, with enough practice time, play expertly (yes, better than me) with an unusual stroke (see Allen Hopkins, Keith McCready, Willie Hoppe), but that doesn't mean we should imitate them. Perhaps we don't have as much time to spend at the table as they do, and perhaps we should find an easier, quicker way to learn the stroke (perhaps getting more enjoyment from the game in the process). Perhaps large numbers of pro's drop their elbow because it is natural for beginners to do this. Perhaps there is not enough widespread teaching of proper mechanics (or at least mechanics that require fewer moving parts). Perhaps there would be more proficient players and fewer bangers if this type of knowledge was widely disseminated. I, like Luther Lassiter, don't know (WOW, I finally got to compare myself to Luther Lassiter, I'm pretty sure that will never happen again).

 

[JoeyInCali]

What's the difference between snooker and pool?
In snooker you don't drop your elbow.
I believe Allison Fisher said that.
If someone here has better mechanics than Buddy Hall, Jose Parica, Ernesto Dominguez and Kim Davenport, I sure would love to see how you get the cueball around the table without a hint of an elbow drop and not slipping the cue.

 

[biGhuK]

Those who would blindly imitate professionals would do well to pick up the Accu-Stats player review tape with Efren Reyes. Bill Staton asks him if the long bridge and elbow drop give the Filipino players an advantage. Efren replies that he plays that way just because he grew up playing that way, and that he thinks he would play better if he had grown up using a more traditional stroke (but, too old to change now).

For newer players, I would recommend getting a good stroke instructor; learn the easiest way. The fewer moving parts in your stroke, the better - anything else and you are fighting entropy. You will not find my elbow dropping - what's the advantage? Any one can, with enough practice time, play expertly (yes, better than me) with an unusual stroke (see Allen Hopkins, Keith McCready, Willie Hoppe), but that doesn't mean we should imitate them. Perhaps we don't have as much time to spend at the table as they do, and perhaps we should find an easier, quicker way to learn the stroke (perhaps getting more enjoyment from the game in the process). Perhaps large numbers of pro's drop their elbow because it is natural for beginners to do this. Perhaps there is not enough widespread teaching of proper mechanics (or at least mechanics that require fewer moving parts). Perhaps there would be more proficient players and fewer bangers if this type of knowledge was widely disseminated. I, like Luther Lassiter, don't know (WOW, I finally got to compare myself to Luther Lassiter, I'm pretty sure that will never happen again).

AMEN Willie!

 

[Rickw]

Willie,

I don't want to pick a fight with you but how does someone "blindly" imitate someone? Read "The Inner Game of Tennis" and you'll see why this may indeed be the best way to learn. I learned my stroke by watching the better players and ultimately the pros. I learned my game the hard way, I racked a lot of balls and paid a lot of pool time and watched, watched some more and now I got people watching me. I'm not saying don't go to an instructor, I just don't see how an instructor can really help your stroke that much. The people with the best stroke in the world can't explain how or why they stroke the way they do. The ones that are teaching it, probably wished they could do what the top pros do or they'd be doing it instead of teaching it.

I read somewhere about how to properly execute a power draw shot from one of these instructors and they suggested that at the end of the stroke, you should hit your chest with your stroke hand which means jerking the butt of your cue up and into your chest. That is just not going to work for me. If I don't see the pros do that, I'm not doing it. You have to validate your technique by either being able to execute it at a very high level or witness that the best players of the world are doing it. If neither of those situations exist then you're wasting your time and money. Plus, as most of you players know, the last thing you want to do to your game is to introduce another bad habit! Just my opinion. Sorry all you instructors out there.

Those who would blindly imitate professionals would do well to pick up the Accu-Stats player review tape with Efren Reyes. Bill Staton asks him if the long bridge and elbow drop give the Filipino players an advantage. Efren replies that he plays that way just because he grew up playing that way, and that he thinks he would play better if he had grown up using a more traditional stroke (but, too old to change now).

For newer players, I would recommend getting a good stroke instructor; learn the easiest way. The fewer moving parts in your stroke, the better - anything else and you are fighting entropy. You will not find my elbow dropping - what's the advantage? Any one can, with enough practice time, play expertly (yes, better than me) with an unusual stroke (see Allen Hopkins, Keith McCready, Willie Hoppe), but that doesn't mean we should imitate them. Perhaps we don't have as much time to spend at the table as they do, and perhaps we should find an easier, quicker way to learn the stroke (perhaps getting more enjoyment from the game in the process). Perhaps large numbers of pro's drop their elbow because it is natural for beginners to do this. Perhaps there is not enough widespread teaching of proper mechanics (or at least mechanics that require fewer moving parts). Perhaps there would be more proficient players and fewer bangers if this type of knowledge was widely disseminated. I, like Luther Lassiter, don't know (WOW, I finally got to compare myself to Luther Lassiter, I'm pretty sure that will never happen again).

 

[CaptainJR]

Willie,

I don't want to pick a fight with you but how does someone "blindly" imitate someone? Read "The Inner Game of Tennis" and you'll see why this may indeed be the best way to learn. I learned my stroke by watching the better players and ultimately the pros. I learned my game the hard way, I racked a lot of balls and paid a lot of pool time and watched, watched some more and now I got people watching me. I'm not saying don't go to an instructor, I just don't see how an instructor can really help your stroke that much. The people with the best stroke in the world can't explain how or why they stroke the way they do. The ones that are teaching it, probably wished they could do what the top pros do or they'd be doing it instead of teaching it.

I read somewhere about how to properly execute a power draw shot from one of these instructors and they suggested that at the end of the stroke, you should hit your chest with your stroke hand which means jerking the butt of your cue up and into your chest. That is just not going to work for me. If I don't see the pros do that, I'm not doing it. You have to validate your technique by either being able to execute it at a very high level or witness that the best players of the world are doing it. If neither of those situations exist then you're wasting your time and money. Plus, as most of you players know, the last thing you want to do to your game is to introduce another bad habit! Just my opinion. Sorry all you instructors out there.

Rickw
You can learn to some degree by watching the pros, but that is no substitute for taking lessons from a teacher. I've talked teaching on here before. I have a lot of posts in this thread regarding teaching technique and my experience in teaching. (not pool by the way)

http://www.azbilliards.com/vbulletin/upload/showthread.php?t=6717

You mention the little somewhat silly sounding draw stroke. I'm thinking your taking this example completely out of context. Teachers often go to the opposite extreme to get a particular student to change something. I would imagine that particular student wasn't finishing there stroke at all. The teacher had to say something drastic to get them started toward finishing there stroke. Once they got them to come up to there chest then they would back it off a bit. That is a good teaching technique.

Playing pros and teaching pros are two different types of people. You have probably heard somewhere along the way, someone saying, 'I know more about it than I can do about it'. People generally write this off as an excuse and in fact sometimes it is. Other times it is vary true and if that person that 'knows more about it than they can do about it' also happens to be the type of person that can convey this information in layman's terms to a student. That person is the one you want to take lessons from.

Unless your that one in a million prodigy, your not going to become a pro without lessons from a great teacher. And a great teacher would be able to work on your stroke.


-this part edited in after original post-

I was just reading the above linked thread and you and I had this same disagreement in that post two months ago. LOL

 

[CaptainJR]

Willie,

I don't want to pick a fight with you but how does someone "blindly" imitate someone? Read "The Inner Game of Tennis" and you'll see why this may indeed be the best way to learn. I learned my stroke by watching the better players and ultimately the pros. I learned my game the hard way, I racked a lot of balls and paid a lot of pool time and watched, watched some more and now I got people watching me. I'm not saying don't go to an instructor, I just don't see how an instructor can really help your stroke that much. The people with the best stroke in the world can't explain how or why they stroke the way they do. The ones that are teaching it, probably wished they could do what the top pros do or they'd be doing it instead of teaching it.

I read somewhere about how to properly execute a power draw shot from one of these instructors and they suggested that at the end of the stroke, you should hit your chest with your stroke hand which means jerking the butt of your cue up and into your chest. That is just not going to work for me. If I don't see the pros do that, I'm not doing it. You have to validate your technique by either being able to execute it at a very high level or witness that the best players of the world are doing it. If neither of those situations exist then you're wasting your time and money. Plus, as most of you players know, the last thing you want to do to your game is to introduce another bad habit! Just my opinion. Sorry all you instructors out there.

One more thing and I'm really going to zing you here, so don't take this personally. We are just disagreeing on something and I think it might be something that we are just going to have to agree to disagree on. We can go back and forth without getting to defensive. LOL

You have mentioned this book, "The Inner Game of Tennis" in other posts as well as this one. If one of this books main points is that you can learn more from watching than you can from being taught, I'll not be wasting my time on this book.

 

[Williebetmore]

Sorry, I couldn't figure out how to intersperse Rick's quotes with my comments - I must be stupid, stupid, stupid. Each of these paragraphs is in response to a specific quote in Rick's post - he'll know what I'm writing about.

Rick,
Fighting is with sticks and knives, discussing is with words. You bring up all good points. I didn't mean for blind imitation to be an insult. We blindly imitate by doing things that we are not sure of the reason's behind - I suspect there are many pro's who have developed their stroke that way. I have read "The Inner Game" but did not find much revelation there (certainly no new insights on learning theory). I know many people do find new concepts in it - I have no issues with Galwey.

My point is that I think many newer players could get to a similar level with fewer racks, less pool time, and maybe less watching (though I am a fanatic about watching good players as much as possible). For those of us with day jobs, time is precious (no, I'm not insinuating you don't have a day job - GEEZE its hard to avoid picking fights). I think most good players have learned the way you have - I'm looking for easier alternatives.

I think players/teachers like Jeff Carter, George Breedlove, Mark Wilson, Danny DiLiberto play (or have played) at the same level as the top competing pro's. There are a lot of good players who won't waste their time circling the globe in search of the often insubstantial rewards of tournament play. There are a number of players who could "do it" if they wanted that type of lifestyle, but who prefer to "teach it." I will totally agree that if your goal is to play at a very high level, then you must definitely include lessons with players who can play at that level. Remember, I was only talking about building a stroke, there is a lot more to playing at the top level than just shooting straight.

Actually, there are plenty of pro's that can perform power draw without dropping the elbow (ones I've seen are Allison Fisher, Jeanette Lee, Tony Robles, Mark Wilson, George Breedlove, Irving Crane). Of course, for SuperMegaPower Draw you may need to drop your elbow ala Fast Larry's advice. I haven't been in too many situations where that much draw was necessary.

As I said before, I'm not recommending that all advanced players abandon everything they know and change. You shouldn't take anything I said as criticism of other types of strokes (hey, I'm the biggest Keith McCready fan ever). I'm just saying there may be a quicker, better way to learn for the newer players. Again, I don't see the drawback to fewer moving parts (we can just disagree about the power issue). I've played way too many years with a drop elbow type stroke, and I've played 2 years with the "all forearm" stroke - I would never go back (unless as Danny D. says, "I quit liking money"). I still think more players could get to an advanced level with a stroke that minimizes unnecessary movement, is easier to reproduce, and is more tension-free and pressure-resistant (I'm POSITIVE I never would have gotten to my current level without it - because I didn't ). Hey, is the fight (errr, discussion) over????

P.S. - before Dick Fosbury came along, all high jumpers for a hundred years had been straddling the bar. I didn't notice many straddle jumpers in Athens this year (sorry, no way to say this without sounding like a smartass, but I thought it was an interesting comparison).

 

[Fred Agnir]

I've been told that I have one. I sure wish I knew what it was. ...

What is it?

A good stroke is nothing more than a repeatable and efficient transfer of energy from the cue stick to the cueball. How you achieve it is a matter of personal preference.

Most people would do well to choose an orthodox method. Some people can maximize their gains by going unconventional. That is to say, I think it's an unfounded leap to assume that a great player could be even better if he did things more conventionally. I don't see much logic in that conclusion. Every body type is different. If history is any indication, greatness manifests itself often in non-traditional ways. Such is the way of sports.

If you achieve repeatable and efficient transfer, then it will look good. Especially if the balls are going in the hole, and the rock is sliding the right way to the right place.

Fred

 

[Rickw]

Captain,

I don't feel zinged at all. You have your opinion and I have mine. The thing I like about the "Inner Game" and that I agree with is, you can talk till you're blue in the face and you may or may not get through to the student. The best way to learn is by doing it, not by listening to someone telling you what or how to do it. Most people in the business of education will tell you that the least effective way to teach is lecture yet that is still the most common form of teaching, especially in most of the institutions of higher learning in the US.

I feel that I have learned far more from watching the top players than I ever have from getting instruction, and yes I have had a lesson from a BCA certified instructor and I thiought he was a very good one btw.

 

[Williebetmore]

The best way to learn is by doing it, not by listening to someone telling you what or how to do it. Most people in the business of education will tell you that the least effective way to teach is lecture yet that is still the most common form of teaching, especially in most of the institutions of higher learning in the US.

.

Rick,
I couldn't agree more. Even if you have a top instructor, he still must show you, and then you have to spend an hour or two (thousand) to develop that skill.

 

[Rickw]

Willie,

You are one of the posters here that I really enjoy reading and one who I really didn't want to offend. If you read my response to the Captain, I think you will also find some of what I said relevant to your post as well. In addition to that post, I would add that there is no freeway to learning to play pool, at least I haven't heard of one. You have to pay your dues. Sure, it would be nice to find the perfect instructor and get the best fundamentals before you start your journey to pool excellence but the odds of that are slim. And, you will have to hit those thousands of balls before you reach a level of competence that resembles any type of expert level anyway.