What do you do when this happens

Strokerz

Strokerz

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have had this same thing come up dozens of times usually from new players or those that just don't know any better. Sitting in the pool room a guy walks in and says "I need a new tip" Ok I say what kind do ya prefer? He says "This one here I can't draw the cue ball with" Gimme one that goves you more english and makes you draw better.:confused: I have handled this several ways in the past. I have done everything from hand it back to them and say theres no magic tip that makes you draw better. To giving them a quick lesson. Usually this costs me a tip replacement because the tips are usually in good shape. I ask if it's too hard. The guy says no so I can't offer a softer tip. I ask if he would like a harder one. No he says the hardness is fine:rolleyes: Just wanted some more opinions or stories like this. Oh also ya ever get anyone that says give me one of those chalk impregnated tips? Just curious:D
 
I usually start my answer with what kind of conditions they play on, bar table, big table, slow, fast, and then how well they play. My experience is that it takes a more skilled player with a lot of finesse in their game to properly use a soft tip. Most people though I put either medium or harder tips on since they are just going to bang the balls around anyways.

I do give the response "I'm sorry, there is not a tip in this world that can help you" every once in a while.

Dave
 
DiamondDave said:
I usually start my answer with what kind of conditions they play on, bar table, big table, slow, fast, and then how well they play. My experience is that it takes a more skilled player with a lot of finesse in their game to properly use a soft tip. Most people though I put either medium or harder tips on since they are just going to bang the balls around anyways.

I do give the response "I'm sorry, there is not a tip in this world that can help you" every once in a while.

Dave
Click to expand...

I don't like installing soft tips as they dull my cutting tool so quickly but when it is mentioned that they desire more draw I explain what is going on. I explain that to get the most draw you need to practice much more so as to get a better stroke. With a good stroke, on contact, you hit the cue ball exactly where you were stroking for, with a poor stroke, your tip is moving all around on every stroke. I tell them that actually, a hard tip will put on more juice than a soft tip if stroked properly. The problem occurs when the shooter has an inconsistent stroke, the tip moves to low, and a miscue occurs. You can only go so far off center with a tip applying juice. This spot is where the most spin occurs. A soft tip is very forgiving compared to a hard tip. With a hard tip, if you hit this sweet spot you will get maximum juice but if you go just slightly farther, then the miscue is sure to occur. With a soft tip, you can actually go slightly farther away from center ball and still not miscue. In effect, what is actually happening, when someone with a poor stroke miscues over and over, his subconscious will no longer let him stroke that far away from center ball and the numerous miscues are less. Although they may be stroking for super low, when they actually pull the trigger their back hand goes down a little bit and they hit almost center ball and think that they had put on a ton of draw where as in actuality, they have put on very little.

Now, by installing a soft tip, after shooting a little while, there will be less miscues and their subconscious starts letting them move away from center more so that they start getting some draw and they believe that the soft tip actually imparts more juice which is not really correct but it does allow them to get more juice as more often they are contacting more away from center.

Dick
 
I tell them in no uncertain terms that their stroke is 90% of the problem, and that harder/softer tips will do very little to correct it.
 
This is the approach I usually take:D I will usually set up a couple draw shots and show them it's not the cue. ;)
Sheldon said:
I tell them in no uncertain terms that their stroke is 90% of the problem, and that harder/softer tips will do very little to correct it.
Click to expand...
 
rhncue said:
I don't like installing soft tips as they dull my cutting tool so quickly but when it is mentioned that they desire more draw I explain what is going on. I explain that to get the most draw you need to practice much more so as to get a better stroke. With a good stroke, on contact, you hit the cue ball exactly where you were stroking for, with a poor stroke, your tip is moving all around on every stroke. I tell them that actually, a hard tip will put on more juice than a soft tip if stroked properly. The problem occurs when the shooter has an inconsistent stroke, the tip moves to low, and a miscue occurs. You can only go so far off center with a tip applying juice. This spot is where the most spin occurs. A soft tip is very forgiving compared to a hard tip. With a hard tip, if you hit this sweet spot you will get maximum juice but if you go just slightly farther, then the miscue is sure to occur. With a soft tip, you can actually go slightly farther away from center ball and still not miscue. In effect, what is actually happening, when someone with a poor stroke miscues over and over, his subconscious will no longer let him stroke that far away from center ball and the numerous miscues are less. Although they may be stroking for super low, when they actually pull the trigger their back hand goes down a little bit and they hit almost center ball and think that they had put on a ton of draw where as in actuality, they have put on very little.

Now, by installing a soft tip, after shooting a little while, there will be less miscues and their subconscious starts letting them move away from center more so that they start getting some draw and they believe that the soft tip actually imparts more juice which is not really correct but it does allow them to get more juice as more often they are contacting more away from center.

Dick
Click to expand...

I don't buy you theory on more draw. I do agree that the key ingrediant is a good stroke. But that still doesnt explaine why most average players, (AVERAGE is APA skill level 4 and 5) can draw better with a softer tip. There stroke doesnt change one bit but the player can draw better, thus rulling out your theory. On a soft tip the tip stayes in contact with a cueball longer applying more friction causing more spin. Try your theory without using chalk. My guess is that more often than not you are going to miscue more with the hard tip. This illistrates that more friction causes more spin which causes more draw and this is exactaly why we use chalk. AS far as aiming point you are correct. With a softer tip you can shoot farther away from center creating even more spin so I dont see where a harder tip is more benifical in creating spin on the cueball. Harder tips are better for breaking!
bubsbug
 
bubsbug said:
I don't buy you theory on more draw. I do agree that the key ingrediant is a good stroke. But that still doesnt explaine why most average players, (AVERAGE is APA skill level 4 and 5) can draw better with a softer tip. There stroke doesnt change one bit but the player can draw better, thus rulling out your theory. On a soft tip the tip stayes in contact with a cueball longer applying more friction causing more spin. Try your theory without using chalk. My guess is that more often than not you are going to miscue more with the hard tip. This illistrates that more friction causes more spin which causes more draw and this is exactaly why we use chalk. AS far as aiming point you are correct. With a softer tip you can shoot farther away from center creating even more spin so I dont see where a harder tip is more benifical in creating spin on the cueball. Harder tips are better for breaking!
bubsbug
Click to expand...

It's no theory, it's a proven fact. Like I said, often soft tips are more forgiving but they absolutely do not apply more juice to a ball. It's a proven fact that a harder tip applies more english than a softer tip, if hit in the same place. Exactly as you stated, a softer tip, with more friction, hangs onto the cue ball longer, but, by not releasing it doesn't attain it's full spin that a harder tip will impart. Bob Jewett and some other technical type people rented a camera from Kodak a few years ago that took up to 12,000 images a second. They were running a number of tests on squirt and such and this is one of the discoveries that they made. It also showed that a dime radius applies more juice than a nickle. You can obtain a tape of a number of the more astonishing tests from Bob for 30 or 35.00 if you want. You can probably find some information on the net. It's called the Jacksonville Experiments.If you want to run your own tests on where the cue ball is actually struck compared to where it is stroked at just set up a camcorder on a tripod with a few people and then play back in slow motion, or another easy test is to set a cue ball with a red circle or other mark on it so that the mark is facing the breaker and exactly level with the table, make sure the breaker chalks the tip and have him use maximum draw. Then just check the cue-ball and see how low the mark actually is.

Dick
 
bubsbug said:
I don't buy you theory on more draw. I do agree that the key ingrediant is a good stroke. But that still doesnt explaine why most average players, (AVERAGE is APA skill level 4 and 5) can draw better with a softer tip. There stroke doesnt change one bit but the player can draw better, thus rulling out your theory. On a soft tip the tip stayes in contact with a cueball longer applying more friction causing more spin. Try your theory without using chalk. My guess is that more often than not you are going to miscue more with the hard tip. This illistrates that more friction causes more spin which causes more draw and this is exactaly why we use chalk. AS far as aiming point you are correct. With a softer tip you can shoot farther away from center creating even more spin so I dont see where a harder tip is more benifical in creating spin on the cueball. Harder tips are better for breaking!
bubsbug
Click to expand...
Harder leather tips put more spin on the ball.
Put elkmaster and hard water buffalo side by side.
I guarantee u, the water buffalo tip will spin the rock more.
The softer tip staying in contact with the cueball more means it's stopping the cueball from spinning after initial contact.
 
JoeyInCali said:
Harder leather tips put more spin on the ball.
Put elkmaster and hard water buffalo side by side.
I guarantee u, the water buffalo tip will spin the rock more.
The softer tip staying in contact with the cueball more means it's stopping the cueball from spinning after initial contact.
Click to expand...

Amen to that!!! Its just hard to try to explain that to the HillBilly's that swear they can "drawl" the ball great with a soft tip.

:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
Dave
 
bubsbug said:
I don't buy you theory on more draw. I do agree that the key ingrediant is a good stroke. But that still doesnt explaine why most average players, (AVERAGE is APA skill level 4 and 5) can draw better with a softer tip. There stroke doesnt change one bit but the player can draw better, thus rulling out your theory. On a soft tip the tip stayes in contact with a cueball longer applying more friction causing more spin. Try your theory without using chalk. My guess is that more often than not you are going to miscue more with the hard tip. This illistrates that more friction causes more spin which causes more draw and this is exactaly why we use chalk. AS far as aiming point you are correct. With a softer tip you can shoot farther away from center creating even more spin so I dont see where a harder tip is more benifical in creating spin on the cueball. Harder tips are better for breaking!
bubsbug
Click to expand...

I disagree,,,I'm an APA SL3 and prefer hard tips,,,use a sumo mostly,,,I try to steer people away from elkmaster and similar soft tips.

I've been wrong before but I can't draw as easily with heaver sticks, regardless of the tip type,,,I have a 13 oz stick with a Talisman hard tip and it outdraws any 17-18 oz stick that I have.......:confused:
 
If these soft tips put more spin on the ball, people wont be putting them in the vise.
 
Originally Posted by bubsbug
I don't buy you theory on more draw. I do agree that the key ingrediant is a good stroke. But that still doesnt explaine why most average players, (AVERAGE is APA skill level 4 and 5) can draw better with a softer tip. There stroke doesnt change one bit but the player can draw better, thus rulling out your theory. On a soft tip the tip stayes in contact with a cueball longer applying more friction causing more spin. Try your theory without using chalk. My guess is that more often than not you are going to miscue more with the hard tip. This illistrates that more friction causes more spin which causes more draw and this is exactaly why we use chalk. AS far as aiming point you are correct. With a softer tip you can shoot farther away from center creating even more spin so I dont see where a harder tip is more benifical in creating spin on the cueball. Harder tips are better for breaking!
bubsbug
Click to expand...

I get the soft tip argument from a couple of players here. I think it has more to do with how comfortable they are that the tip won't miscue when they go extremely low. The first time they go that low with a hard tip, they miscue. They now adjust up a little on the ball to compensate and can't get that rock to move as much. They blame the tip. Like anything, It takes a bit to get used to it but the hard tips do produce more spin.

What do the trick shot artists use? I am curious to know. They impart major spin.
 
Last edited:
Strokerz said:
I have had this same thing come up dozens of times usually from new players or those that just don't know any better. Sitting in the pool room a guy walks in and says "I need a new tip" Ok I say what kind do ya prefer? He says "This one here I can't draw the cue ball with" Gimme one that goves you more english and makes you draw better.:confused: I have handled this several ways in the past. I have done everything from hand it back to them and say theres no magic tip that makes you draw better. To giving them a quick lesson. Usually this costs me a tip replacement because the tips are usually in good shape. I ask if it's too hard. The guy says no so I can't offer a softer tip. I ask if he would like a harder one. No he says the hardness is fine:rolleyes: Just wanted some more opinions or stories like this. Oh also ya ever get anyone that says give me one of those chalk impregnated tips? Just curious:D
Click to expand...


it's cool that you're honest man but just throw a sniper on it and when they get it back give them the lesson on how to draw. nobody can say that's not honest enough
 
twofer

poolplayer2093 said:
it's cool that you're honest man but just throw a sniper on it and when they get it back give them the lesson on how to draw. nobody can say that's not honest enough
Click to expand...

perfect execution.
you can probably sell ice to eskimos
 
I'm in the hard tip crowd. I play with a SUMO, a very hard non-layered water buffalo tip. IMO a hard tip is more accurate, puts more spin on the cue ball and transmits the feel of the cue better. I can't understand why anyone would put a soft tip on a nice cue??
By the way, I am a hillbilly and proud of it!!
John
 
If you watch the "average APA" player, they jack the butt up in the air, and slam it and swear that it gives them more draw. If you watch the pros, the stick is level as possible and they draw a country mile with hardly any effort. It has everything to do with stroke, aim and steadyness and levelness. I can draw as good or as bad with any tip. There isn't any magical tip. Practice the stroke and aim. If there is an equipment difference, it is, IMO, the cloth you are playing on. 18 yrs of recovering tables has taught me, the tighter the weave and the tighter it was put on, the better the draw(with the correct aim and stroke)
thats my 1.5 cents
Dave38
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top