What do you guys think of my cue?
- Thread starter Fast Lenny
- Start date
JimBo said:
Sorry about the sarcastic response, but your last post quoting me came accross as mocking jab, which I also found rude and disrespectful.
My sole point is that both Gus and Barry's cues are not readily available as custom creations regardless of money available. Gus is deceased, and his son Barry has a 5-year waiting list. Although my pockets are pretty deep, I don't necessarily have that kind of time to wait. Life is precious, so I won't squander 5+ years before I can enjoy a personalized cue.
JimBo said:
That's why I never said the above. The line between borrowing cue style elements vs. counterfeiting varies from hazy to crystal clarity. The important thing is that the cue's actual creator incorporate his own touches into the cue to make it distinctly his own.
Gus caused a revolution in the cue making world - his cues are among the most-mimicked out there. No one will ever take away his legacy and accomplishments.
OK, I've said my peace. Back to topic, I hope...
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JimBo said:
No, I wasn't defending anything said or inferring such. Thought it was pretty plain English......yawn, yeah we know where you stand....also yawn because you hijacked the guy's thread. Real classy as usual.
Sean
lord_shar said:
Well said points. Most people (as I do) feel that a direct copy, especially with the intent to produce a fake of the original, is bad and morally wrong. However, taking elements of a certain style, remaking or incorporating them into your own construction/methods IMO is not "cue design theft". Jimbo takes his stance to the extremes at times, especially when he see an opportunity to step on somebody and make it appear as if he knows something. Don't feel the need to apoligize to him because deep down, he doesn't give a fart.
Sean
apprx 40 million pool players in this country. no clue how many world wide. are there enough original designs to go around? when is a design different enough to be original vs plagiarism? many who plagiarize are mass producers (deep pockets) who could pay PLENTY if plagiarism were easily proven.....it's not. kinda complex when you think about it...isn"t it?
Here is the problem with Jimbo's ranting and raving on the cue design issue. Its all bark with no bite. In his list of cuemakers there are two cuemakers besides South West that have made South West style cues.
He will NOT go to any cuemaker and say it to their faces. On ebay right now are two McWorters that are South West styled, of course Jerry is on JImbo's hero list for originality, but here is a prime example of what Jimbo cannot stand. So I offer this, Jimbo you and I will be down VF, you, me and a third party, lets say Koop will take one hour and walk the floor. Any cuemaker that has a booth that has ONE knock off design, you have to say to him, to his face, what a talentless clown he is.
C'mon paper tiger, enough's enough. Put it where it matters. Lets do this , lets get a three way call going with McWorter and with me on the phone, lambaste him like you do these other cuemakers on the forum. I just want to see you ONCE call out someone on your hero list.
Joe
He will NOT go to any cuemaker and say it to their faces. On ebay right now are two McWorters that are South West styled, of course Jerry is on JImbo's hero list for originality, but here is a prime example of what Jimbo cannot stand. So I offer this, Jimbo you and I will be down VF, you, me and a third party, lets say Koop will take one hour and walk the floor. Any cuemaker that has a booth that has ONE knock off design, you have to say to him, to his face, what a talentless clown he is.
C'mon paper tiger, enough's enough. Put it where it matters. Lets do this , lets get a three way call going with McWorter and with me on the phone, lambaste him like you do these other cuemakers on the forum. I just want to see you ONCE call out someone on your hero list.
Joe
JimBo said:
Hey it ain't me and Sean sharing a room for 4 days...
Joe
classiccues said:
I agree thats a good idea,i will be at the Expo and would love to see that,i have seen alot of cuemakers specifiaclly make Rambo style,Hoppe Style,Buska style cues,like Richard Black,even Tads work has similarities to Bushkas,i know he has been around for along time but cmon.I thnk alot of cuemakers have done SW style cues,3 high and 3 low points,it looks nice and its what people want without the hefty pricetag or wait.I would love to walk around and look at some cuemakers whom he has on his list and i guarantee a few of them will have "knockoffs".
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Fast Lenny said:....some cuemakers whom he has on hisl sit and i guarantee a few of them will have "knockoffs".
Fast Lenny,
You're dead on......ALL OF THEM have at one point or another have done what he so affectionally likes to call "knock-offs". But Jim apparently hasn't seen fit to call out his close cue-making "buddies" on it. Therein lies his double standard.
Sean
I guess we should find cues made by these guys that are knockoffs and post pics so he can see in his blind arrogance.
cueaddicts said:
It's funny that since you disagree with my point of view you want to make me seem classless. The funny thing is you can easily ignore me and this thread, you choose not to. This is an internet forum, the way it works is we share ideas, you can't make a post and then control what follows, sorry you disagree but that's how it works. I can't hijack anything alone, this thread has gone on for 5 + pages and it's because people are sharing ideas. If left alone the original topic would have been 1 page and long gone. It's funny to see how you react to this topic because your stance is money driven and it much hit a nerve. But don't worry you and Joe are loyal if nothing else and that to some is a good trait, no matter how misguided.
Jim
cueaddicts said:
Sean, please don't try to speak for me or explain me, I post enough to make myself clear, your version of what I mean and or say are way off base. As far as the counterfiet deal goes it's not part of what I am talking about, why someone steals isn't an issue to me, it's the stealing that bothers me. Also let me say it again, who cares what you think ask a cuemaker who is being ripped off what he thinks, SKins has already told us. It's funny how an industry guy like you (and Joe for that matter) who knows so many cuemakers can't find one to come here and tell us how he's been ripped off and he doesn't mind. It's funny how when asked directly to comment Chris Hightower shut up, I guess people don't want to appear to be hypocrits.
Jim
classiccues said:
I will tell you the same thing I told Sean, please don't attempt to explain me or speak for me. You read and read yet never once understand. It's not up to ME Joe, it's not up to YOU. Ask the people you're stealing from. Come on Joe with all those cue makers you must know as equal partner in Classiccues/PTM (LOL) you must know tons of cuemakers, can't you find any who have been ripped off to tell us all they don't mind when it happens. Also please stop trying to invent a list of so called "heros" that I have. Where did you come up with the list? You seem to know so much about me and this made up list how bout you share it with me. You are a clown Joe, you'll always be a clown and you have no clue. 3 hi and 3 low points doesn't mean the cue is a knockoff, if that were the case then nobody would ever be able to use points again, ever. I know it helps your case to try and make me sound this extreem but as I've explained a hundred times it's not the case. The thing I find funny is that rather then back up your money driven side of the argument you would rather try to lie and blur my side, don't attack me Joe (with lies) just try to defend your side, and it would be really easy to do, just have the people you rip[ off ok your behavior. I have no problem telling anyone to their face my point of view, if you have the balls you find me, bring this so called knockoff with you and we can walk right up to ANY cuemaker at VF and I will talk to them in front of you. Then and only then will you get it. Cya at VF buddy.
Jim <---NOT SHY
Fast Lenny said:I guess we should find cues made by these guys that are knockoffs and post pics so he can see in his blind arrogance.
Lenny I'm sure it makes you feel like one of the "in" crowd to jump on board with Joe, but please open your eyes and learn to read. If you have any questions about my point of view feel free to PM me or E-mail me for clarification, please don't listen to what Joe thinks I'm saying. I'm not blind to the fact that it's been done before and will be done again. MY POINT OF VIEW is that it doesn't make it right, and it's not an excuse to do it again. Sure Thomas Wayne has made SW knockoffs, he has also come up with the most original designs in the history of cue making. I respect his original work, I hate the knockoffs. Same guy, I love some of his work and hate some, I have told him such. it would be hard to find a person who has never made a knockoff, but that doesn't mean that once a person does a knockoff I hate everything about them. I really don't like people who try to excuse the behavior, it's stealing and it's wrong. I have never had one of my designs knocked off, but I have had long conversations with guys who have been ripped off and it's a huge reason for my rants.
As I've said a million times what *WE* think isn't important, call the person you want to rip off, or a person who has been ripped off and ask their opinion.
Ernie G (Ginacue) is among the top cuemakers in history on anyone's list, he is a hall of fame member and one of the longest running cuemakers. I would think that what I say or what Joe and Sean want to say means very little when compared to what someone like Ernie would have to say on this topic. His number is 1-818-509-0454 I would love for anyone out there to call him and ask how he felt when Mottey made a copy of his cue.
Again don't listen to some internet know it alls, ask a person who is qualified to speak on this topic since he has been stolen from.
Jim
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cueaddicts said:
Sean why is it you can't read? Or do you choose not to read what I write? I mean I know this line of thinking suites your argument and it really does attempt to make me look like a hypocrite. But it's just bullshit and a lie. I have never defended anyone doing it and this so called list of "buddies" is a joke. Who is on this list? I know it doesn't exist, it's in you and Joe's heads. It's wrong to steal designs, no matter who does it, I don't care if it's a person I know and like or not, it's just plain wrong. Sure people I respect have done it, some have come close to the line and you know what I have the balls to speak to their faces about it and my feelings. So now that I've cleared that up for you once more (for about the 50th time) what lie would you like to tell? What spin next??? Please learn to read if you want to honestly debate me on this. Maybe now you should focus the attack on my spelling.
Jim
JimBo said:
Well, for the most part I agree with your argument about cue design theft, but I can site an instance where a design concept was copied and the cuemaker gave his blessings. I'm refering to the "drop shadow" technique that Edwin "Bandito" Reyes uses. When I first saw this concept in a cue I was really impressed with the simplicity and elegance of this type of inlay. So much so that I asked permission from my friend, Edwin, to use this concept in some of my cues. He was very gracious in allowing me to do so and was, I believe, honored that I asked him first! I use it sparringly and always give homage to Ed when I show someone a cue with this concept. And frankly, a lot of the old Bushka and Boti designs have become almost public domain, they've been done so much. I don't have a problem with making a cue that's inspired by one of the dead masters, as long as it's represented fairly. And "Southwest Style" has become a common term. It doesn't necessarily mean that the cue is a copy of a Southwest. At least to me, it represents a linen phenolic, wood-to-wood jointed cue, often with 6 points. It just kinda groups it differently than say a "Szamboti" style cue, with a piloted steel joint, usually 4 veneered points, ebony into maple!
Chill out Jimbo! lol, I don't think he's looking to counterfeit a SW!
just more hot air!
Sherm
just more hot air!
Sherm
JimBo said:
Then in that case, we're on the same page.
The problem isn't your message -- it's how you articulate it without properly distinguishing between similar adapted styles vs. blatant forgeries. The angry tone further drowns out your premise and alienates many readers here. If your goal is to sell your point, then a little less hostility goes a long way. Otherwise, it just creates a potential flame-fest.
Side Note: As you've previously mentioned, my cue is not an exact copy of any previous Gus, though it does borrow some style elements. It was actually modeled after a Bill Schick, and yes, Andy Gilbert obtained Bill's permission before making my cue. However, I also asked Andy to incorporate a few unique features, thereby making a 1-of-a-kind.
JimBo said:
We do see how the thread was detoured, and there are better ways to raise a legitemate concern.
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So instead of taking my post of course why not start your own post Jimbo?,i am not trying to be a jerk,but i think it would better serve the purpose and it could be debated there.If i could delete this post i would because its not fair to me or Greg Kucharski whom i was paying tribute to his work.I never said i wanted a knockoff so i dont know how this post turned into cue design theft,i just said i wanted a SW style,meaning wood to wood and 3 high and 3 low points,the rings and butt design would be left up to Greg,so then again i dont know how or why this post got off track but its not cool.
I think many cuemakers and thats the majority 99% do tend to make cues that are styled like many of the masters and the popular cuemakers of today,i dont think its right but it gives people the chance to buy cues that are the style that they like for a fair price that is affordable to them,not everyone can afford the 20 thousand dollar Bushka or Szamboti,so they buy something from Richard Black or many of the other current top cuemakers who produce near copies of the masters work,you could even take a step lower and buy a mass produced Adams for $500 if you like the style,they have the rights literally to copy because Balabushka was bought and sold as you know long ago,so if anyone has a problem then it should be Adams because they bought the name.As for me jumping on board with any of these guys,im no follower,i just think that stylizing your cue after soemone elses is not worng but a carbon copy,i mean exact copy in every detail is,i think that is agreed by most people on here,you are the one who attacked my first post because i said i wanted a SW "style" cue,am i wrong for that?,i dont think thats cue design theft,im just giving people an idea of what the next cue i want is going to look like, you came at that the wrong way thinking i wanted a knockoff.I think some cuemakers make simialar cues to see if they can make the same magical cue, see if the cue looks as good or better then the original design,i know if i made cues i would try my hand at a SW or Bushka style just to see if i can make something just as nice.Well enough of this post,perhaps we might run into eachother at Valley Forge and we can go look at all the knockoffs that 9 out of 10 cuemakers will have there,you will spend the entire time there telling all these guys where to go then,but i think its just easier to say screw it and let the cuemakers themselves tell the guy off who is ripping them off,do you think they care if Joe or Jimbo Schmo comes up and complains about there stealing?,i dont think so my friend.
I think many cuemakers and thats the majority 99% do tend to make cues that are styled like many of the masters and the popular cuemakers of today,i dont think its right but it gives people the chance to buy cues that are the style that they like for a fair price that is affordable to them,not everyone can afford the 20 thousand dollar Bushka or Szamboti,so they buy something from Richard Black or many of the other current top cuemakers who produce near copies of the masters work,you could even take a step lower and buy a mass produced Adams for $500 if you like the style,they have the rights literally to copy because Balabushka was bought and sold as you know long ago,so if anyone has a problem then it should be Adams because they bought the name.As for me jumping on board with any of these guys,im no follower,i just think that stylizing your cue after soemone elses is not worng but a carbon copy,i mean exact copy in every detail is,i think that is agreed by most people on here,you are the one who attacked my first post because i said i wanted a SW "style" cue,am i wrong for that?,i dont think thats cue design theft,im just giving people an idea of what the next cue i want is going to look like, you came at that the wrong way thinking i wanted a knockoff.I think some cuemakers make simialar cues to see if they can make the same magical cue, see if the cue looks as good or better then the original design,i know if i made cues i would try my hand at a SW or Bushka style just to see if i can make something just as nice.Well enough of this post,perhaps we might run into eachother at Valley Forge and we can go look at all the knockoffs that 9 out of 10 cuemakers will have there,you will spend the entire time there telling all these guys where to go then,but i think its just easier to say screw it and let the cuemakers themselves tell the guy off who is ripping them off,do you think they care if Joe or Jimbo Schmo comes up and complains about there stealing?,i dont think so my friend.