What Do You Hate To See In A Cue?

[jazznpool]

Ernie routinely signs the cues on the forearm or in the point with pencil and has logo on buttcap. Maybe its an authentication thing. The signature is subtle.

I love real abalone shell inlays because of their dimension and beauty. MOP is nice also if it is not overused. I also prefer more classic type designs but value playability over most other factors.

I dislike:

1. cues with shafts mismatched for weight.
2. poor quality shaftwood with lots of grain runout and sugar streaks.
3. wild "pro" shaft tapers.
4. a ridge between shaft and ferrule.
5. wrapless cues.
6. highly textured cowhide wraps.
7. steel jointed cues that plink or tink.
8. too much loud decor on a cue.
9. rounded inlays.
10. chunky fat cue butts.
11. makers last name spelled out on buttcap--yuk!

Martin

westerncue.com

Ernie Gutierrez does it on some of his cues. I've seen one or two with a Gina logo on the buttcap and then an Ernie Gutierrez signature on the forearm between the top of two points BUT it was an ebony forearm and the signature was written in dark ink making damn near invisible to the naked eye so I don't know if that counts.

 

[Tommy-D]

What Do You Hate To See In A Cue

> Am I the only person here that LIKES rounded points? However strange this may seem to some,I like knowing the points are all the same length and shape on the end,and the "veneers" on the rounded points are a little wider in most cases,if different woods are used it makes a nicer contrast for me anyway. Here is a list of things I DON'T like.

> Tulipwood,I've only seen 3 cues I liked with it. Never really likes Goncalo Alves either except a few SW's.

> Weird shaped,jagged edged inlays that look like they were cut out with grandma's cookie cutter,even if the execution was flawless.

> MOP and most abalone.

> Big clumsy looking bumpers.

> Ebony cues with purpleheart,cocobolo,or brown wood points that aren't separated by at least a single or double veneer of a light wood like holly or maple.

> 8 point high/low cues where the points totally overlap and overwhelm each other.

> Cues with a single silver trim ring in the joint collars and the ring is centered instead of offset.

> Maple or white blocks in trim rings that are surrounded by white rings,also silver rings bordered by white.

> Multiple veneers in v-groove points that are too similar in color.

> Silver inlays right next to ivory without a cocobolo or ebony border.

> Generally not a fan of pink ivory either,with some exceptions.

> Fuzzy edges in maple veneers.

> Cues with 3,5,or 10 points.

> Older cues with double or triple width veneers of the same color with a big ugly seam in the middle. This goes double for any veneers with one side longer than the other,as opposed to a well executed seam right down the middle.

> Cues without a rubber bumper of any kind,there HAS to be something there if I'm going to play with it,especially a Hoppe style butt.

> No other wood irks me more than kingwood,just cheap looking to me. A close second is olivewood,followed by anything other than a dark brown rosewood.

> Cues with maple or ivory windows in an ebony butt sleeve where the windows are closer to the wrap instead of centered.

> This puke-colored "brown" phenolic looks like CRAP about 95% of the time. can't they make a double-brown or darken it somehow?

> Inlays in a phenolic or ivory joint collar that already has rings in it.

> Cues you can turn in your hand and feel the points and rings swelling through the finish,or have shrunk and bubbled the finish.

> Cues with small ivory inlays in the points lined up so it looks like a solid long ivory point from a distance.

> Heart shaped inlays.

> Nothing against the old or new masters,just not a fan of s-links,z's or propellers.

> Ebony butt sleeves with trim rings in the middle instead of at the ends.

> Pearlescent inlays or rings.

> The older translucent Delrin,I don't mind the newer stuff other than glue and finish won't stick to it.

> Cues with tarnished brass pins or unpolished/plated steel pins.

> White lizard or snakeskin wraps,as well as the feel of most leather wraps in general.

> I can't think of many more,Tommy D.

 

[bruin70]

What do I hate seeing in a cue...
Mike Sigels name.. he should be playing pool not woodshop
Joe

YES!!! you're the only other person i've seen bringing him up.

 

[cgriffin5]

Eek, my new cue met 3 of those no-no's! (lizard wrap, silver rings, + SS joint on an ebony/ivory cue)

I'm sorry I wasnt clear. I dont like cues with ebony forearms with ivory inlays and SS joints. BTW I really like the buttsleeve on your cue.


Connor

 

[lord_shar]

I'm sorry I wasnt clear. I dont like cues with ebony forearms with ivory inlays and SS joints. BTW I really like the buttsleeve on your cue.


Connor

Ah, got it now, thanks for the clarification

I can see why SS joints on ebony forearms would look wierd...

 

[JimBo]

Because I know you don’t sell. Another thing, your reply has nothing to do with my reply to your idiotic statement about why his cues sell. You are totally off base and that’s not just an opinion.

It is just an opinion Joe, it's your opinion and since we have nothing to compare it to I guess we'll never know. How someone can decide if a person's sucess is due to a style change or his name becoming more popular due to nice solid work is a tough call IMO.


It’s not my opinion. It’s a fact. I know this because I tried to sell his early stuff, and I know it didn’t sell. Again a fact from experience.

SEE ABOVE

I do have facts, especially when talking about Skip and his cues.

fACTS AREN'T PROOF, i DIDN'T DEBATE THAT YOU CAN SELL MORE CUES NOW, JUST SAID THERE IS NO PROOF IT'S BECAUSE OF A STYLE CHANGE. IT MIGHT JUST BE BECAUSE PEOPLE RECOGNIZE GOOD WORK. MY OPINION IS PEOPLE SAW HIS WORK WAS GOOD AND ORDERED A STYLE THEY LIKED, AND THAT'S NOT WHAT YOU ARE SAYING.

So now you are the dictator of what custom cuemaker means? Interesting. BTW it was about sales, when Skip started the transition into more traditional cues, he was doing cues as his primary source of income. Just another fact, you want to neglect.

LOL, I'M NOT A DICTATOR OF ANYTHING JOE, I'M JUST GIVING MY OPINION AND MINE IS NO BETTER THEN YOURS AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT KILLS YOU MOST. FEEL FREE TO GIVE YOUR OPINION ALL YOU WANT JOE, JUST STOP TRYING TO TELL US ALL HOW YOUR OPINION IS THE ONLY RIGHT ONE.


The comparison is simple. You COULD spend time inventing new drinks if you wanted to. But the fact is you sell the “traditional” drinks that people ask for. Cause no one might want to try a glass of JImbotalltale or a shot of “Connecticut Crack in a glass”…

i DO INVENT DRINKS EVERY TIME SOME DOPEY COLLEGE GIRL SAYS MAKE ME SOMETHING FRUITY, OR MAKE UP A SHOT, IT HAPPENS EVERY TIME I WORK, BUT THE FACT IS I'M STILL SMART ENOUGH TO KNOW IT'S JUST BARTENDING AND NOT AN ART FORM.


I know this is hard for you to comprehend, Skips cues by design are different than any cue past or present. He chooses to add decoration (inlays) in patterns that people are very happy and familiar with. You can see just in this thread there are many people who like that style. So there is a market for that style.

Skip tomorrow could decide to do computerized inlay patterns, pump out 15-20 like cues, and call them a "series". (biggest joke in cues at the moment) but he would be no better than one of these cad artists.

Joe

AND SKIP TOMORROW CAN DECIDE HE DOESN'T WANT TO DO TRADITION LOOKING CUES ANYMORE, ARE YOU TELLING US ALL THAT IF HE DID HIS CUES WOULD STOP SELLING, CAUSE THAT'S WHAT IT SEEMS YOU ARE SAYING. I ON THE OTHER HAND SEEM TO THINK THAT HIS WORK IS GOOD AND PEOPLE WILL CONTINUE TO RECOGNIZE THAT FACT.

JIM

PS SORRY BOUT THE CAPS, BUT THIS NEW FORMAT SUCKS, SOME DAYS I CAN BE PURPLE AND OTHERS NOTHING WORKS.

 

[widowmaker]

Transparent ferrule and chalk-rings on the ferrule!

 

[monski]

I also don't like when someone builds a cue out of ivory and then has Sandra Brady scrimshaw the thing (or any outside party) if you're going to put your nme on the cue then you need to do the damn work. guys like Schick, Edwin Reyes, Hercek, and Bender just don't get enough credit for being true artist IMO. I think of cues as an art and to find a true artist doing it today isn't easy, but those who know the deal know and that's why these "true artist" all have giant lists and get the amount they deserve.

Jim

Does outsourcing the artwork take away from the cuemaker? Whether the maker does not have the skill to do the work or maybe his skill will not give the cue the desired impact (justice).

 

[monski]

This one is for Brian, hehehe...

--------------
This one is very nice...

 

[monski]

I don't like:

MOP (in general) but I'm sure there's a nice MOP cue somewhere

wild colors but keep one just for the sake of having one

cluttered inlays such that the cue looks like a jigsaw puzzle

Capiz on a cue -- though most if not all of such cues are made here...

 

[skins]

I Like / Don't Like

i've read much of this forum and one thing is clear, everyone's tastes are different. i would like to address a few comments made herein regarding the use of floating points and the use of cnc machines. let me start off by saying i hate mass produced cues and i am a huge fan of the traditional prong and veneer cues. with that being said i believe that true custom cue making involves the processes of design and machining with the intent of producing cues that are one of a kind or very short runs, less than 10 perhaps, where no two are exactly alike. whether it be the same design with different wood combinations or maybe a few extra or less inlays. the play ability is all about the construction and the visual appeal is all about the design content. i think marcus said he liked cues made by humans and not computer programs. who do you think programs the computer? take a good look at my avatar and tell me if you all think it's easy to not only design something like this but to try to machine the inlays and pockets to inlay it without unsightly glue lines or breaking inlays. i understand why some people don't like floating point cues made with the use of a pantograph or cnc (an un-manned pantograph) but
don't confuse yourselves by believing that with the use of these machines the cues produced are not "true" custom cues. if the you take the time to use these tools in a discriminating manner with attention to the details these cues are in no way 1. iferiorly constructed 2. easier to make or 3. not as collectable. now there are some makers who use these tools who have not learned the fine point's and their cues turn out visually less appealing to the eye. look at some of the early Szamboti cues and compare them with the later Szam cues and you will see the progression of an artist and the desire to learn new machining techniques and use better tools to make his cues more precisely made and more visually appealing. we are still fairly early in the stages of new machining techniques to produce different looking cues and that is very exiting. someone hinted that it's about being different than what's out there and carving your own niche in the field and the fact is there's only a handful of cue makers that do what i do (of course not nearly as good! ) and some of them have used and in most cases are still using my design work, Cognoscenti, Kikel, Bludworth, Colorado Cues and my partner Keith Josey which is by far the most unique and is more of a "one of a kind" maker than the most and there's sure to be more as the years go by. these types of cues may not be for everyone but are for people who enjoy unique artistry. i like to design this way because i can "see" things from another angle and i will always feel as if i have contributed positively to the art of cue making. Don't Hate!

 

[icon]

the fact is there's only a handful of cue makers that do what i do (of course not nearly as good! ) and some of them have used and in most cases are still using my design work, Cognoscenti, Kikel, Bludworth, Colorado Cues and my partner Keith Josey which is by far the most unique and is more of a "one of a kind" maker than the most and there's sure to be more as the years go by. these types of cues may not be for everyone but are for people who enjoy unique artistry. i like to design this way because i can "see" things from another angle and i will always feel as if i have contributed positively to the art of cue making.

tim! i didnt know you we're involved with cog design as well. although i did mention to bru once that josey's designs were like more intricate cog's!
one thing i don't understand is when someone does the design of the cue why they are not given credit for the design. until you started posting here i had no idea that josey didnt do his own designs.
in a situation like this i feel the cue should be called a tim lilek/ keith josey or a keith josey with design by tim lilek.

 

[JimBo]

Does outsourcing the artwork take away from the cuemaker? Whether the maker does not have the skill to do the work or maybe his skill will not give the cue the desired impact (justice).

I'm not sure it takes away from the cuemaker per say, I mean the cue maker's job was to make the cue, but it doesn't add to the cue maker. When someone like PFD or Mottey builds a cue and then has all the artistic work done by someone outside the shop it shouldn't have a positive impact on that maker. I believe that it just adds to the artistry of people like Schick or Bender when the work is done "in house".

If you ever heard Bill Schick tell the story of how he learned to engrave I think you'd have a better understanding of what I mean. Bill played pool under the shop of one of the worlds best engravers and when he made his first cue he went to this guy and asked if he'd put bill's name on the cue. The guy told him "you made the cue right??" Bill said yeah, and then the guy handed him the tool and said "then you put you're own name on it" and the rest is history I guess. Of course there are so many levels as to how much of the work one should do on his own cue. I mean some guys are so proud that they let everyone know they build everything from the bumper to the pin, some claim they do it all other then tips. Some buyers look down on people who buy parts and put the cues together, some people think Prather points is a negative. So I guess it's up to the individual as to how much outsourcing is acceptable.

I for one just like to see the "art" in the cue done by the artist himself.

Jim

 

[SPINTHEBALL]

Billy Schick's room is the NUTTS!

 

[Michael Webb]

I'm not sure it takes away from the cuemaker per say, I mean the cue maker's job was to make the cue, but it doesn't add to the cue maker. When someone like PFD or Mottey builds a cue and then has all the artistic work done by someone outside the shop it shouldn't have a positive impact on that maker. I believe that it just adds to the artistry of people like Schick or Bender when the work is done "in house".

If you ever heard Bill Schick tell the story of how he learned to engrave I think you'd have a better understanding of what I mean. Bill played pool under the shop of one of the worlds best engravers and when he made his first cue he went to this guy and asked if he'd put bill's name on the cue. The guy told him "you made the cue right??" Bill said yeah, and then the guy handed him the tool and said "then you put you're own name on it" and the rest is history I guess. Of course there are so many levels as to how much of the work one should do on his own cue. I mean some guys are so proud that they let everyone know they build everything from the bumper to the pin, some claim they do it all other then tips. Some buyers look down on people who buy parts and put the cues together, some people think Prather points is a negative. So I guess it's up to the individual as to how much outsourcing is acceptable.

I for one just like to see the "art" in the cue done by the artist himself.

Jim

Good story Jim,
Tap, tap.

 

[skins]

Art done by the cuemaker

I'm not sure it takes away from the cuemaker per say, I mean the cue maker's job was to make the cue, but it doesn't add to the cue maker. When someone like PFD or Mottey builds a cue and then has all the artistic work done by someone outside the shop it shouldn't have a positive impact on that maker. I believe that it just adds to the artistry of people like Schick or Bender when the work is done "in house".

If you ever heard Bill Schick tell the story of how he learned to engrave I think you'd have a better understanding of what I mean. Bill played pool under the shop of one of the worlds best engravers and when he made his first cue he went to this guy and asked if he'd put bill's name on the cue. The guy told him "you made the cue right??" Bill said yeah, and then the guy handed him the tool and said "then you put you're own name on it" and the rest is history I guess. Of course there are so many levels as to how much of the work one should do on his own cue. I mean some guys are so proud that they let everyone know they build everything from the bumper to the pin, some claim they do it all other then tips. Some buyers look down on people who buy parts and put the cues together, some people think Prather points is a negative. So I guess it's up to the individual as to how much outsourcing is acceptable.

I for one just like to see the "art" in the cue done by the artist himself.

Jim

i respect your opinion jim and it is well noted in most cases. in this situation keith and i are like brothers and this relationship started because he saw technology as a positive in the cue making industry and wanted an open minded person to work with who would share his craft and try to make this type of cue better. keith and i are one and i don't mind only his name on the cues because it's josey custom cues on the front door and he has worked very hard to get the respect he has earned and i'm part of the new "josey era". someday i hope to get the respect he and many others enjoy but for now i'm just glad i have the avenue to display my, as joe gold use to say, outrageous look on cues and will continue as long as keith want's. keith josey is my freind, teacher/pupil, brother and and the only one i design for now and i wouldn't change that for anything.

 

[skins]

tim "lilik"

tim! i didnt know you we're involved with cog design as well. although i did mention to bru once that josey's designs were like more intricate cog's!
one thing i don't understand is when someone does the design of the cue why they are not given credit for the design. until you started posting here i had no idea that josey didnt do his own designs.
in a situation like this i feel the cue should be called a tim lilik(sic)/ keith josey or a keith josey with design by tim lilik(sic).

thanks for the good words. joe likes to use allot of silver and i like that too but so as not to make keith cues look just like his we do more inlay in our cues to give the two cues some design destinction. and on another note remember i said they spelled my name wrong in the blue book. it should be Tim Lilek.

 

[lord_shar]

...<SNIP>...

I for one just like to see the "art" in the cue done by the artist himself.

Jim

While I do prefer that the cue maker scrim everything on a cue he signs, I also know this isn't always possible nor feasible. My newest cue required somewhat minor scrimshaw work, but the cue maker I selected didn't perform scrimshaw personally. He outsourced the work, and I was still very happy with the resulting cue's hit (most important) and visual appeal (secondary). Both the cue maker and the scrimshaw artist, although separate individuals, are still masters of their own chosen professions. It's difficult for me to complain about the results regardless of who signs the final product.

I would have been happy to fork over the $$$ to get an original Bill Schick custom, but I didn't care for the 7+ year waiting list either (life is too precious to wait that long for a cue).

 

[bruin70]

Does outsourcing the artwork take away from the cuemaker? Whether the maker does not have the skill to do the work or maybe his skill will not give the cue the desired impact (justice).

no,,,but one has a greater respect for those who do everything.

 

[icon]

I believe that it just adds to the artistry of people like Schick or Bender when the work is done "in house".

"when he made his first cue he went to this guy and asked if he'd put bill's name on the cue"

I for one just like to see the "art" in the cue done by the artist himself.

Jim

doesnt mike benders wife do his scrim work? she does live in the same house but should that be considered "in house" or done by the maker? also drexler's wife does "art work" on her husbands cues. neither maker acknowledges the contribution by their spouse on the cue or in print that i have seen.

hate to point out an error in any of your posts jim since you supply a LOT of GOOD info but it was not bill's "first cue"!

what about design jim??? the guy that's so vehemently against cue design theft does not see a problem with a maker that uses a cue designed completely in cnc software and sold to the maker by someone else being then used by that maker with no acknowledgement to the designer? and of course if there is no acknowledgement to the actual designer people make the assumption that the cue maker designed the cue.

also i know cnc design takes time to do in software so to use an intricate cnc design once and discard it is not practical. but i also dont consider using the same program but swaping out woods and maybe deleting a small design element here and there as doing a one of a kind cue but more just a variation off the original one of a kind.

also tim? did you do design work for bob hunter cues as well? or are his design just patterned after yours?