What Do You Hate To See In A Cue?

[monski]

bruin70 Quote:
no,,,but one has a greater respect for those who do everything.


JimBo Quote:
I'm not sure it takes away from the cuemaker per say, I mean the cue maker's job was to make the cue, but it doesn't add to the cue maker. When someone like PFD or Mottey builds a cue and then has all the artistic work done by someone outside the shop it shouldn't have a positive impact on that maker. I believe that it just adds to the artistry of people like Schick or Bender when the work is done "in house".

If you ever heard Bill Schick tell the story of how he learned to engrave I think you'd have a better understanding of what I mean. Bill played pool under the shop of one of the worlds best engravers and when he made his first cue he went to this guy and asked if he'd put bill's name on the cue. The guy told him "you made the cue right??" Bill said yeah, and then the guy handed him the tool and said "then you put you're own name on it" and the rest is history I guess. Of course there are so many levels as to how much of the work one should do on his own cue. I mean some guys are so proud that they let everyone know they build everything from the bumper to the pin, some claim they do it all other then tips. Some buyers look down on people who buy parts and put the cues together, some people think Prather points is a negative. So I guess it's up to the individual as to how much outsourcing is acceptable.

I for one just like to see the "art" in the cue done by the artist himself.

Jim
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Tap..tap... nice input and you have explained it well. Icon made a good point as well. For me, proper acknowledgement of the outsourced work is important. I guess Mike Bender's and Paul Drexler's wives don't mind not sharing in the glory. But I think that other parties doing the (professionally) outsourced artwork will prefer being to be cited.

 

[skins]

bruin70 Quote:

Tap..tap... nice input and you have explained it well. Icon made a good point as well. For me, proper acknowledgement of the outsourced work is important. I guess Mike Bender's and Paul Drexler's wives don't mind not sharing in the glory. But I think that other parties doing the (professionally) outsourced artwork will prefer being to be cited.

i apologize in advance if you do not mean me but if you understand one thing understand this- as far as josey custom cues is concerned his work is not outsourced. we are partners in cue building and we colaborate on every design that is done and we consider the cues we make to be of two sources acting as one towards the same goal, beauty meeting form meeting function. and as Gump said " that's all i'm goin to say about that".

 

[Tommy-D]

> Tim,your inlay patterns are exquisite,and unique. How much CNC programming experience and training do you have to get to that level? Tommy D.

 

[bruin70]

tommy.....i pm'd you

 

[Voodoo Daddy]

These new garage hacks just offend me when they do it.

Jim

Well, my new career as a cuemaker was just shot in the ass...you big GALOOT!!

I hate to see the floating points and all the CNC'd cookie-cutter Abalone diamonds. Gimme old school Hoppe Style with a Ivory ring on a ebony or rosewood butt sleeve and a polished exposed screw...NO BUMPER or WHITE BUTT CAP!! Gimme ebony or rosewood points with four FIREY veneers on a nice piece of straight-lined maple. White with green fleck wrap {wish I could find some cortland, sigh} pressed to a smooth feel makes me smile. S/S or Ivory joints will do but I love a BRASS joint polished to shine and rings at the collar unimportant. A shaft tappered to a "belled" ivory ferulle, old school all the way!!! But thats me...

 

[TATE]

Has anyone mentioned coated wraps? I fail to see any point in wrapping a cue with linen then shooting clear on it.

 

[skins]

Training?

> Tim,your inlay patterns are exquisite,and unique. How much CNC programming experience and training do you have to get to that level? Tommy D.

believe it or not no formal training. i learned cad/cam on my own with a jump start from joe gold of cognoscenti cues and mostly from published work and the designs just come to me, some inspired and some just appear to me. i love pool cues and i've been doing this for about 12 years now and am enjoying the opportunity to create. thanks for the gracious compliment Tommy

 

[bruin70]

Has anyone mentioned coated wraps? I fail to see any point in wrapping a cue with linen then shooting clear on it.

that's another tacky embelishment!!!

meucci, i can see.....but TAD???

 

[classiccues]

While I do prefer that the cue maker scrim everything on a cue he signs, I also know this isn't always possible nor feasible. My newest cue required somewhat minor scrimshaw work, but the cue maker I selected didn't perform scrimshaw personally. He outsourced the work, and I was still very happy with the resulting cue's hit (most important) and visual appeal (secondary). Both the cue maker and the scrimshaw artist, although separate individuals, are still masters of their own chosen professions. It's difficult for me to complain about the results regardless of who signs the final product.

I would have been happy to fork over the $$$ to get an original Bill Schick custom, but I didn't care for the 7+ year waiting list either (life is too precious to wait that long for a cue).

Lord.. your right on par. Some artists are restricted by the media they use. Paul Mottey is a great cuemaker, but when it comes to drawing art, maybe he is not a great sketch person. So if he wants to do a scrimmed cue, whats wrong with using a world reknown artist that specializes in scrimshaw.
Balabushka didn't make his own blanks, doesn't make his cues any less popular. This can be said about anyone that ever used a titlist, but they are still nice cues.

http://www.mysticseaport.org/shop/su-allartworks.cfm?ar=241&pg=Artists

Joe

 

[classiccues]

Jimbo: It is just an opinion Joe, it's your opinion and since we have nothing to compare it to I guess we'll never know. How someone can decide if a person's sucess is due to a style change or his name becoming more popular due to nice solid work is a tough call IMO.

No.. Its just your opinion with nothing to base it on. My “opinion” though is quite the contrary. I have experience that directly relates to your comment. The big difference isn’t that it’s opinion, it’s experience.

Jimbo: fACTS AREN'T PROOF, i DIDN'T DEBATE THAT YOU CAN SELL MORE CUES NOW, JUST SAID THERE IS NO PROOF IT'S BECAUSE OF A STYLE CHANGE. IT MIGHT JUST BE BECAUSE PEOPLE RECOGNIZE GOOD WORK. MY OPINION IS PEOPLE SAW HIS WORK WAS GOOD AND ORDERED A STYLE THEY LIKED, AND THAT'S NOT WHAT YOU ARE SAYING.

Facts aren’t proof?? Put the bottle down before you type. There is absolute proof it was because of the change. Its not even debatable. His work was good before the change, but it didn’t matter because the cues didn’t have appeal. This is a fact, further proven by just looking at the Skips that get posted here in AZ. They are almost all traditional, infact there was a poll, and your version of Skip LOST.

Jimbo: LOL, I'M NOT A DICTATOR OF ANYTHING JOE, I'M JUST GIVING MY OPINION AND MINE IS NO BETTER THEN YOURS AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT KILLS YOU MOST. FEEL FREE TO GIVE YOUR OPINION ALL YOU WANT JOE, JUST STOP TRYING TO TELL US ALL HOW YOUR OPINION IS THE ONLY RIGHT ONE.

When you have fact vs an opinion, the fact wins out.

Jimbo: AND SKIP TOMORROW CAN DECIDE HE DOESN'T WANT TO DO TRADITION LOOKING CUES ANYMORE, ARE YOU TELLING US ALL THAT IF HE DID HIS CUES WOULD STOP SELLING, CAUSE THAT'S WHAT IT SEEMS YOU ARE SAYING. I ON THE OTHER HAND SEEM TO THINK THAT HIS WORK IS GOOD AND PEOPLE WILL CONTINUE TO RECOGNIZE THAT FACT.

That would be a fact had he not done the traditional cues to get his foothold in cuemaking. Had he stuck to his own designs, there is no doubt he wouldn’t have the success he is having now. The only reason people recognize the good work now, is because of the designs he executes, better than most the originators.

Skip has done some nice work on his own. No doubt. But until you have seen the purple heart forearm with satinwood points and black, orange, yellow, natural veneered cue with large brown inlays, you have no clue.

Joe

 

[JimBo]

i respect your opinion jim and it is well noted in most cases. in this situation keith and i are like brothers and this relationship started because he saw technology as a positive in the cue making industry and wanted an open minded person to work with who would share his craft and try to make this type of cue better. keith and i are one and i don't mind only his name on the cues because it's josey custom cues on the front door and he has worked very hard to get the respect he has earned and i'm part of the new "josey era". someday i hope to get the respect he and many others enjoy but for now i'm just glad i have the avenue to display my, as joe gold use to say, outrageous look on cues and will continue as long as keith want's. keith josey is my freind, teacher/pupil, brother and and the only one i design for now and i wouldn't change that for anything.

My post was about scrimshaw work on cues , not designs, I'm not sure if your story fits into the line of thought I was commenting on. I personally don't see a problem with what you do or your business relationship. BTW do you just write the code or do you have any other part in the construction of the cue, say cutting the pockets or the pieces? Inlaying them? Where does your role end?

Jim

 

[JimBo]

i respect your opinion jim and it is well noted in most cases. in this situation keith and i are like brothers and this relationship started because he saw technology as a positive in the cue making industry and wanted an open minded person to work with who would share his craft and try to make this type of cue better. keith and i are one and i don't mind only his name on the cues because it's josey custom cues on the front door and he has worked very hard to get the respect he has earned and i'm part of the new "josey era". someday i hope to get the respect he and many others enjoy but for now i'm just glad i have the avenue to display my, as joe gold use to say, outrageous look on cues and will continue as long as keith want's. keith josey is my freind, teacher/pupil, brother and and the only one i design for now and i wouldn't change that for anything.

My post was about scrimshaw work on cues , not designs, I'm not sure if your story fits into the line of thought I was commenting on. I personally don't see a problem with what you do or your business relationship. BTW do you just write the code or do you have any other part in the construction of the cue, say cutting the pockets or the pieces? Inlaying them? Where does your role end?

Jim

 

[JimBo]

doesnt mike benders wife do his scrim work? she does live in the same house but should that be considered "in house" or done by the maker? also drexler's wife does "art work" on her husbands cues. neither maker acknowledges the contribution by their spouse on the cue or in print that i have seen.

Well, being a rookie and all I can see where you'd be uneducated on the topic, after you've been around for a while you'll learn more, be patient Jeff, it'll come. Many shops use one name yet have many people work on the cues, there are very few top 1 man shops. Scruggs has Mike and others Mottey has James and others, but in the case here Mike Bender puts his wife’s name on the pin along with his on cues she's worked on. It's still one shop, no matter who works out of the shop.



what about design jim??? the guy that's so vehemently against cue design theft does not see a problem with a maker that uses a cue designed completely in cnc software and sold to the maker by someone else being then used by that maker with no acknowledgement to the designer? and of course if there is no acknowledgement to the actual designer people make the assumption that the cue maker designed the cue.

I don't care who designs the cue, many cues have been designed by the buyer, I've drawn up ideas on a bar napkin and showed the cue maker and then had him make changes as well as changes I might make in the construction of the cue. Point is as long as it's not taken from a cue that has already been done it's not stealing. In the early days of CNC and even pantograph many cue makers just bought patterns or premade design code. Stealing a design that has been done on a finished cue and buying or paying for someone to do the design is different. As Bruin has said there should be more credit given to guys who do their own work, it just seems like common sense to me. Of course like most of your posts I know this isn't a serious question, it's just you trying to start trouble, some day you'll come here to learn instead of just bait and start trouble and it'll be worth while.

also i know cnc design takes time to do in software so to use an intricate cnc design once and discard it is not practical. but i also dont consider using the same program but swaping out woods and maybe deleting a small design element here and there as doing a one of a kind cue but more just a variation off the original one of a kind.

This is the main reason why 1 of a kinds are so expensive and also why the people who do them the first time don't want people stealing them. Certain guys like Ernie will tell you that they will do 1 of a kind cues, but the charge has to be so high that it makes it worth while for him. Again a main reason why stealing designs is wrong, if a cue maker works for 50 hours on a design his time is worth something, if it's a cue he will make 50 of then he can divide his time evenly and spread out the cost over the 50 cues, again the reason 1 of a kind cues are so much $ and why it makes it so wrong to steal a design. Going back to what I just said about the bar napkin, what if I came up with a design and had a cuemaker build it, should he be able to make it into one of his production lines??? I don't think so, it's mine and should be done only for me, the fact that it's mine means he can't make it for 3 more customers and it also means he should build that fact into the price. You as a customer should pay for the 1 of a kind privlage, and you should have every right to be mad at someone who steals the design, and even seek monetary reimbursement if it's stolen.

also tim? did you do design work for bob hunter cues as well? or are his design just patterned after yours?

That's for Tim to answer, but I'd love to hear what Tim's view of someone stealing his work is. You see we can go back and forth and Joe can have his own opinion as to what he feels is right and I can have mine, but really it's guys like Tim who take the time and do the work and who are the ones being ripped off who's opinions I think really matter. Of course when I draw up an idea or design the cue I feel I'm on the same level as Tim, so if someone steals my idea I feel I have a case to be mad.

Jim

 

[JimBo]

doesnt mike benders wife do his scrim work? she does live in the same house but should that be considered "in house" or done by the maker? also drexler's wife does "art work" on her husbands cues. neither maker acknowledges the contribution by their spouse on the cue or in print that i have seen.

Well, being a rookie and all I can see where you'd be uneducated on the topic, after you've been around for a while you'll learn more, be patient Jeff, it'll come. Many shops use one name yet have many people work on the cues, there are very few top 1 man shops. Scruggs has Mike and others Mottey has James and others, but in the case here Mike Bender puts his wife’s name on the pin along with his on cues she's worked on. It's still one shop, no matter who works out of the shop.



what about design jim??? the guy that's so vehemently against cue design theft does not see a problem with a maker that uses a cue designed completely in cnc software and sold to the maker by someone else being then used by that maker with no acknowledgement to the designer? and of course if there is no acknowledgement to the actual designer people make the assumption that the cue maker designed the cue.

I don't care who designs the cue, many cues have been designed by the buyer, I've drawn up ideas on a bar napkin and showed the cue maker and then had him make changes as well as changes I might make in the construction of the cue. Point is as long as it's not taken from a cue that has already been done it's not stealing. In the early days of CNC and even pantograph many cue makers just bought patterns or premade design code. Stealing a design that has been done on a finished cue and buying or paying for someone to do the design is different. As Bruin has said there should be more credit given to guys who do their own work, it just seems like common sense to me. Of course like most of your posts I know this isn't a serious question, it's just you trying to start trouble, some day you'll come here to learn instead of just bait and start trouble and it'll be worth while.

also i know cnc design takes time to do in software so to use an intricate cnc design once and discard it is not practical. but i also dont consider using the same program but swaping out woods and maybe deleting a small design element here and there as doing a one of a kind cue but more just a variation off the original one of a kind.

This is the main reason why 1 of a kinds are so expensive and also why the people who do them the first time don't want people stealing them. Certain guys like Ernie will tell you that they will do 1 of a kind cues, but the charge has to be so high that it makes it worth while for him. Again a main reason why stealing designs is wrong, if a cue maker works for 50 hours on a design his time is worth something, if it's a cue he will make 50 of then he can divide his time evenly and spread out the cost over the 50 cues, again the reason 1 of a kind cues are so much $ and why it makes it so wrong to steal a design. Going back to what I just said about the bar napkin, what if I came up with a design and had a cuemaker build it, should he be able to make it into one of his production lines??? I don't think so, it's mine and should be done only for me, the fact that it's mine means he can't make it for 3 more customers and it also means he should build that fact into the price. You as a customer should pay for the 1 of a kind privlage, and you should have every right to be mad at someone who steals the design, and even seek monetary reimbursement if it's stolen.

also tim? did you do design work for bob hunter cues as well? or are his design just patterned after yours?

That's for Tim to answer, but I'd love to hear what Tim's view of someone stealing his work is. You see we can go back and forth and Joe can have his own opinion as to what he feels is right and I can have mine, but really it's guys like Tim who take the time and do the work and who are the ones being ripped off who's opinions I think really matter. Of course when I draw up an idea or design the cue I feel I'm on the same level as Tim, so if someone steals my idea I feel I have a case to be mad.

Jim

 

[icon]

jim! i really wish you would learn how to use your computer and quit double posting! you do know you can delete one of each of those doubles?

the example i was trying to convey was a cue maker that never does his own designs but purchases designs from others and does not give credit to that person.

 

[JimBo]

Facts aren’t proof?? Put the bottle down before you type. There is absolute proof it was because of the change. Its not even debatable. His work was good before the change, but it didn’t matter because the cues didn’t have appeal. This is a fact, further proven by just looking at the Skips that get posted here in AZ. They are almost all traditional, infact there was a poll, and your version of Skip LOST.

Joe, there is no *MY VERSION* you need to lose the personal vendetta it's really fogging your thoughts. I happen to like Skip, I like his work. I happen to know that the reason people order cues from him is because he does nice work. I happen to know for a fact that his cues sell because he does nice work. If he refused to make cues in a certain style his cues would still sell well because he's doing nice work. Do I have proof to back up my opinion? I sure do, not everyone likes the way SW cues look, many people have called them and asked if they would do a 4 point cue with a hoppe bottom, they said NO, we don't do that, they have an 8 year wait list. The facts are that people who make nice cues get work, their work stands on it's own. Now I know you read the name JimBo and you see red and you just want to argue, but you have no proof to back anything up. I can't say one way or the other if my opinion is correct, but I'd like to think that good work gets rewarded, and I say Skip's work is good. Of course I have proof that good work gets rewarded, more proof then you have but it's not important here because it's just conjecture at this point. You want to continue to make this a JimBo issue rather use common sense you go right ahead.


Skip has done some nice work on his own. No doubt. But until you have seen the purple heart forearm with satinwood points and black, orange, yellow, natural veneered cue with large brown inlays, you have no clue.

Joe

Yeah Joe, I have no clue LOL. Fact is I don't care if I like the style of the cue or not, I can look at the execution of a cue and see how the workmanship is. I can judge a cuemaker on how he makes his cue, how it hits and how tight his work is, the looks come second. I don't need to see the cue you are talking about to know that Skip's point work is very nice. The color of the veneers doesn't come in to play either, the cue could be green and orange with yellow veneers and I can still look at it and see quality workmanship, you see Joe you have no clue if you think people buy cues because of the design. These people wouldn't buy players cues with traditional decals, they are buying Skip's cues, not the style.

Jim

PS your post is very hard to read, I sense you are having as bad of problem as I am with the new format, AOL sux, try IE.

 

[Tommy-D]

> Personally,if I had Tim's CNC gifts and "vision",and someone tried to copy my designs,more power to them,chances are it won't be executed as well as Josey does it. Because I haven't done it yet,it still blows my mind that someone can actually pick some of those inlay pieces up to deburr them without them breaking. Tommy D.

 

[icon]

Balabushka didn't make his own blanks, doesn't make his cues any less popular.
Joe

my opinion is it does make his cues less appealing. i like some of the classic looking bushka designs but think his cues are over priced partially due to the mention in the "color of money".
if tom cruise would have mentioned "szamboti" their values would be double bushka's.
we also certainly can't go by the values in the bluebook since they were determined by mark kulungian, one of the largest collectors of bushka's.

 

[skins]

> Personally,if I had Tim's CNC gifts and "vision",and someone tried to copy my designs,more power to them,chances are it won't be executed as well as Josey does it. Because I haven't done it yet,it still blows my mind that someone can actually pick some of those inlay pieces up to deburr them without them breaking. Tommy D.

that's what i meant when i said there are some that haven't mastered the way to inlay like this. we are all still learning just some are ahead of others. and your right it's a ***** to not break intricate inlays and it takes allot of prep work.

 

[cubswin]

uneven points drive me nuts
rounded points
mop
inlays in a sneaky pete design cue unless its arrowhead at the top of the points

the crazy high prices these days (but then again thats for everything other than computers it would seem)

Leather wraps
chalk rings on a ferrule
holly inlays
a ton of ivory
lots of inlays