What Do You Look For in a Pool Instructor

[FranCrimi]

I think the majority using the pause, benefit by virtue of less distortion on delivery. Just that, if they haven't developed a mental process to go along with the rhythm. If it's like wait, jerk, watch, that dun make much sense.
Speaking of instruction, I copied Gorst's delivery. Melling wasn't hot enough to copy . The ticket is slow and schmoove. It's amazing how much and how precise a force a properly actuated cue can generate.

Well, okay, if you want to discuss the pause, then let's do that. First, I could be wrong but I think some people here are discussing the pause at the cb before the final stroke in some of their discussions, which makes things confusing to the discussion. That's a different pause. As for the pause in discussion, as long as you don't shoot with a continuous loop stroke, you will pause at the end of your back stroke. With some players, it's hardly noticeable. The length of that pause varies from player to player.

As to why a player pauses for a certain length, here's what I've learned: For some players, that pause is their hand-eye coordinator --- meaning the pause is when they move their eyes from the cb to the ob, so they may pause a fraction longer. A longer pause also negates the effect of a poorly-timed backstroke that could negatively impact the timing of the forward motion. For example: players who tend to bring their cue back fast for every shot might be better served with a fraction longer pause at the end of their backstroke to reset the stroke. Rhythm players tend to pause the least. Their stroke timing begins with a slow backstroke that leads to a favorably-timed, continuously accelerating forward stroke, similar to throwing a pitch or a punch with a slow wind-up. I've noticed that in general, players who play this way tend to be athletic and seem to have natural good-timing.

And some players are taught to play with a longer pause, so that's how they play. I believe this is true with many snooker players who are taught that way from the start.

 

[straightline]

I used to foul a lot, recklessly pausing at the cue ball. That pause did work though. It let the jumble of noob uncertainty settle until I decided to commit to the shot. I would then one pump stuff, very often haphazardly. 50 years hence, I have the complete shot in mind and the rear pause is to stage and properly launch the cue - hopefully right back at and through the forward pause point.

 

[WobblyStroke]

I had a nodding acquaintance with a couple of the major SPF instructors. Both of them at different times told me the pause was basically a training technique and most people's pause would get shorter and shorter with time. My pause was long gone, While it has some uses and I might still pause, even an extended pause, when I need a lot of touch that is when it seems most wrong when I look at it objectively, my main objection to the pause is the disconnect between practice strokes and the shot when you artificially add in a pause.

If people pause and like the pause, cool. If they don't like a pause, that is fine too.

Hu

A common approach in coaching any change in technique is to exaggerate. You see this in golf all the time where instructors routinely try to get a student to slowly rehearse and feel a move that would literally kill their swing if they actually did it as it is so far in the opposite direction of their common mistake. And yet, with that seemingly terrible rehearsal move, they don't get anywhere near it on their delivery and their previous swing flaw is fixed. As the new feel takes hold over time, their rehearsal move softens and becomes more of what they actually want to do (partly bc with time they will be able to get closer to actually doing the terrible move they rehearse and ruin their swing in the other direction).

With the pause in pool, if a player is quick in their transition (many beginners tend to be), then teaching them an exaggerated pause serves the important purpose of smoothing out and calming the change in direction. Some players never actually feel the complete stillness of a pool setup and isolated arm movement in the delivery until they are forced to pause a really long time...like 1mississippi maybe even 2 if they're masochists.

It makes sense that the pause would become more brief over time because as the player becomes more fluid in their movement, they find a rhythm to their game. As Fran mentioned, rhythm players have the shortest of pauses and sometimes none at all if they favor a bit of a loopy technique. As you mentioned, the biggest issue with the pause is the disconnect in the stroke and the breaking of this rhythm we build up for the feel of the shot in our rehearsal strokes. Naturally then, as players develop their skill and find their rhythm that feels good for their game, they will tend to shorten the exaggerated pause. For some, the long pause fits and it stays, but for most, it will shorten up.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

That utter nonsense again? As I recall, I pointed out the obvious fact that the stick can only move that way if your bridge hand slides forward with it - ridiculous, even for you.

Saying I agreed with it is simply dishonest - color me unsurprised.

pj
chgo

Yes, I definitely have to move my hand bridge forward to apply a 1/4 tip of english, as do pros and AZ members who use this method.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Here we go again. I think a new sub forum is in order. SFF, Shermans Fantasies and Fairy Tales.

Hey! As my paid employee, I have to remind you you're supposed to be trolling me on a different thread, not this one, to help bring me new clinic customers. Get back to work, you lazy man!

 

[Patrick Johnson]

Yes, I definitely have to move my hand bridge forward to apply a 1/4 tip of english, as do pros and AZ members who use this method.

So, nobody but you.

Even if it could be consistently done, it wouldn't produce the results you claim - the amount of spin is determined by the direction the tip moves, not the cue's angle. You (an "instructor") clearly don't understand that - color me unsurprised again.

pj
chgo

 

[gregcantrall]

You guys are all over the place. It's really hard to follow you when you keep jumping around.

Not sure which guys you reference. Well Me, Myself and I are not instructors, just Lead Men. So it's understandable if you can't follow. My earliest motto was and is, "lead follow or get out of the way."
My method starts with, "self taught ". The bottom line is I am responsible for choosing instructors or coaches or role models. In my generation a good starting point for self taught was the Bookmobile that came around to our little 2 room school monthly. Now the internet and youtube are a valuable source.
Barry Stark's guidance and methods are available through his channel on youtube. His method does differ from mine only in the final look. Methods in the cue sports can differ much the same as methods in martial arts vary from boxing to wrestling to Judo. Notice how the mixed martial arts leads to having skills in all of the above. Of course knowledge comes before execution.
I have studied straight pool, 9 ball, 8 ball, 3 ball, one pocket, billiards and snooker. Each has relatable sets of skills with each favoring strength in slightly different skills.

Here's another jump.

I would say that the true student should subscribe to both of these channels and study. Along with that I would posit that any flying the "Instructor" shingle, should at the very least be familiar with the material made freely available by Barry and Stephen.

 

[gregcantrall]

With some players, it's hardly noticeable. The length of that pause varies from player to player.

Check out Ronnie in the first frame of this finals match with Judd. I notice that the length of his pause varies from hardly noticeable to very pronounced.

There is so much more to observe by watching his dance. It has been a while since I watched this match. I do recall when I watched it live, I was struck by Ronnie's strict adherence to his pre shot routine. The way the chalk coming from his pocket was in adherence to the program. Not so much to chalk the cue but just a physical marker for a point in the mental processing.

 

[ShootingArts]

The SPF guys may indeed be trying to get rid of the far too common jerk forward by teaching a rear pause. I was friendly with these guys, never took lessons although I have watched a little of both of their lessons. That meant I didn't try to do a lot of in depth mind picking like I might have done if I was taking lessons. I have been friends with many instructors because I never tried to get for free what they were selling. Same with top players, I don't talk about pool with them or try to pick their brains for free. When instructors or top players are in the mood to talk about pool I certainly listen carefully. Most people like to talk about what they know so they usually get around to it.

I have never had a pool instructor or coach. Would have made my path a lot simpler and shorter but if such a thing as instructor existed they were few and far between. They were more like my old mentor. He would give me one or two tips a session after he saw I was serious and I put in tons of hours on the tables he owned!

While I'll admit it is a matter of perspective, I don't believe everyone pauses at the end of the backstroke. The forearm might have the tiniest of pauses but my wrist and my grip are in motion. There might be the tiniest of loops from my wrist if someone wants to be picky but that is like saying that we stroke the cue straight back and forth. Nobody does, our bodies aren't made that way. I will let any doubters compete with a robot for a small wager. In reality we need to be very consistent for maybe two inches of our stroke. Nicer if that is straight forward and back but not a must as some great players have proven.

I want to talk about Ronnie but I'll break that into a second post.

Hu

 

[ShootingArts]

Greg, you certainly know how to bring my day to a screaming stop! I like to watch snooker, watching Ronnie play is hypnotic. I keep forgetting to watch the pause and having to go back over and over. The camera work also caused me to have to look at different reference points like the tip or the grain on the shaft.

This led me to notice a few odd things. One is at I believe around 10:30 into play. His hand pauses but his elbow is rising, clearly in motion. While the stick might be paused, the stroke isn't. Ronnie is still in motion.

Another point of interest I didn't note the time of did happen I believe early in the frame, Ronnie paused, from the camera angle it seemed a very distinct pause, but then drew back another inch or more before coming smoothly forward.

It seems to me that this smooth transfer of motion is important to Ronnie. I don't see a real pause in his stroke like in some strokes, something is always happening. The only thing that looked like might be a genuine pause was the second shot I mentioned but then he pulled back and put his transition after the pause.

Hu

 

[gregcantrall]

Greg, you certainly know how to bring my day to a screaming stop!

The nice part of Retired. makes it easiest to Go with the Roll or is that Role.
I notice different things in the second viewing. This time mid second frame I notice the Role Ronnie plays and the response by Judd.
As Yogi says, "half the game is 85 percent mental. Making the opening statement is so critical.
Ronnie speaks of Robotics. Don't overlook the obvious that the computer is kind of an important part.
Well I did take computer programming 101.
In my original viewing I overlooked the pause at the back. From hours of study I knew his 147 record didn't give much time for a pause. (Barry says waaaaait. Play the shot.) I was aware of the variation in his tempo at the table. Or is it The Beat? Anyways it might have been a blue ball that Ronnie almost looked to be compressing the spring at the back. It was a beautiful power shot. The Yellow as first color also got a little more time at the back. The shots requiring extreme precision strike seem to be the Slooow shots. :wink For me it's about confirmation of the strike and path through the cue ball in the feathers. Then the cock at the back and pulling is turned over to the Ring finger. (Oh wow now I understand being introduced as The Ringer)
Barry Stark's grip is the nuts. So that gets just a little longer uh computer time.

 

[sparkle84]

Hey! As my paid employee, I have to remind you you're supposed to be trolling me on a different thread, not this one, to help bring me new clinic customers. Get back to work, you lazy man!

It might behoove you to actually research what exactly an internet troll is.

 

[ShootingArts]

Making the opening statement is so critical.

If I knew somebody was going to stay with me a set amount of time like a tournament set I tried to crush them like a grape the first game or two. A few other tricks I am sure you are familiar with but they were all about intimidation. I liked to see that look in their eyes and on their face that they knew they had stepped off in it, even if it wasn't always true!

Kinda works with another maxim of mine that I often applied working, "If you can't confound them with wisdom, baffle'm with bullshit!"

Hu

 

[bbb]

The nice part of Retired. makes it easiest to Go with the Roll or is that Role.
I notice different things in the second viewing. This time mid second frame I notice the Role Ronnie plays and the response by Judd.
As Yogi says, "half the game is 85 percent mental. Making the opening statement is so critical.
Ronnie speaks of Robotics. Don't overlook the obvious that the computer is kind of an important part.
Well I did take computer programming 101.
In my original viewing I overlooked the pause at the back. From hours of study I knew his 147 record didn't give much time for a pause. (Barry says waaaaait. Play the shot.) I was aware of the variation in his tempo at the table. Or is it The Beat? Anyways it might have been a blue ball that Ronnie almost looked to be compressing the spring at the back. It was a beautiful power shot. The Yellow as first color also got a little more time at the back. The shots requiring extreme precision strike seem to be the Slooow shots. :wink For me it's about confirmation of the strike and path through the cue ball in the feathers. Then the cock at the back and pulling is turned over to the Ring finger. (Oh wow now I understand being introduced as The Ringer)
Barry Stark's grip is the nuts. So that gets just a little longer uh computer time.

seems to me after a quick look at the first 2 innings of ronnie
that he pauses more on power and delicate shots
also noted he broke left handed ????

 

[buckshotshoey]

Check out Ronnie in the first frame of this finals match with Judd. I notice that the length of his pause varies from hardly noticeable to very pronounced.

There is so much more to observe by watching his dance. It has been a while since I watched this match. I do recall when I watched it live, I was struck by Ronnie's strict adherence to his pre shot routine. The way the chalk coming from his pocket was in adherence to the program. Not so much to chalk the cue but just a physical marker for a point in the mental processing.

I agree whole heartedly that the preshot routine is one of the most ignored fundamentals by lower to mid level players. And as mentioned by shooting arts, The pause between the backstroke and forward stroke helps greatly to alleviate the jerky motion. I had/have many flaws in my stroke. When Anthony got me to work on those 2 things, And I practice them enough to become a second nature, My game definitely went up. It's not easy to change something you've been doing for years. I do catch myself doing these 2 things every now and then and I have to self correct occasionally.

 

[WobblyStroke]

For you Ronnie guys taking deep dives on his pauses, here is a video of a guy doing a technique breakdown. For most of his shots his piston stroke 'loop' is continuous with no set position or pause. As Hu pointed out, the tip does seem to stay still while parts of the back arm are in motion at this change of direction point. The guy doing the breakdown does a pretty good job and he has a nice nugget in there about how Ronnie always hits every shot with a trace of side. Enjoy.

edit: the one thing he gets wrong is Ronnie's grip. But other than that lil detail, it's fairly insightful.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

So, nobody but you.

Even if it could be consistently done, it wouldn't produce the results you claim - the amount of spin is determined by the direction the tip moves, not the cue's angle. You (an "instructor") clearly don't understand that - color me unsurprised again.

pj
chgo

AS ON THE PRIOR THREAD, where YOU ACKNOWLEDGED I AGREED WITH YOU, I deny it gives more spin.

Just to be clear: There is no method of stroke or movement that gives "extra" spin.

Rather it reduces the amount of aim adjustment needed for english, by taking the cue through C-D rather than C-E as discussed in the prior thread in which you AGREED.

And as I said, there are pros who use this method of english, it's not just me.

You are extremely forgetful or a liar, which is it?

 

[BilliardsAbout]

It might behoove you to actually research what exactly an internet troll is.

This is the definition I found online:

 

[WobblyStroke]

AS ON THE PRIOR THREAD, where YOU ACKNOWLEDGED I AGREED WITH YOU, I deny it gives more spin.

Just to be clear: There is no method of stroke or movement that gives "extra" spin.

Rather it reduces the amount of aim adjustment needed for english, by taking the cue through C-D rather than C-E as discussed in the prior thread in which you AGREED.

View attachment 702367
And as I said, there are pros who use this method of english, it's not just me.

You are extremely forgetful or a liar, which is it?

If AB is the vertical axis, how is CD even a swipe? It is just a vertical move on the same axis. Or is the vertical axis somewhere less obvious than str8 up and down in your diagram? Lil confusing.

 

[gregcantrall]

seems to me after a quick look at the first 2 innings of ronnie
that he pauses more on power and delicate shots
also noted he broke left handed ????

Well he switches to the Left so seamlessly that it often goes unnoticed, well at least uncommented. He has been breaking lefty for a long time. His explanation was along the lines of left got better luck.
That it was power or delicate shots that the pause was longer is my take on it too.