What Do You Look For in a Pool Instructor

[WobblyStroke]

I did make a very limiting statement and I stand by it because this was your proffer:

“I will make your game much better in a one-hour lesson. …my claim for the upcoming clinic is you will go up several handicap points/an entire letter ranking in a day, from "C" to "B" and so on:”

So look, before you come with the offer of a free lesson, here’s a counter: take a look at me shooting and tell me what you’d have me change that would make such a dramatic improvement:

It’s an old video and I feel I actually shoot better now but it’ll do for the purposes of this discussion. IOWs I will take my lesson here.

I await your evaluation with bait on my breath.

Lou Figueroa

Nice run Lou!
That rack starting at 26min was a toughie. Did well to get out from that mess.

You are a prime example of a guy that isn't going to level up all that much in a day lol. That said, a good instructor could help you with some feels type things and at least have your technique feel more locked down and solid so there isn't quite as much for you to do to keep shots on line. Granted this is subconsciously done so it's not like you're really 'doing' it, more like it is happening based on your intention for the shot. Still, the less of that the better overall for consistency, but obv we nit picking here since you are already a guy running upwards of 100 balls.

There's a break shot at 33min mark that caught my eye and got me on this subconscious adjustment train of thought. At first I just saw the break and thought left english might have been a better choice. So I rewound and saw you did seem to choose left english but in your delivery you came across and hit with right. I mean, you could very well just be a BHE guy and that's what was going on the whole time and you played it that way, but not knowing that to be the case for sure 2 other options sprung to mind for me as an explanation for what happened...
1. You simply stretched yourself into a position that wasn't quite aligned right which caused you to cue crooked (honestly unlikely given the shot success). 2. You may have misaimed the ball (whether due to misperception from the stretched stance or inadequate adjustment for the left english) and subconsciously corrected to where you make it. The big move was there to save you from a miss and it so happened to put right on the ball as well. (more likely than 1 imo, but with a gun to my head, you're just a BHE guy).

Overall, I like your form and the way you deliver the cue. Sure, there are a few things that can be 'cleaned up' for aesthetic reasons as much as anything else (tho the more solid 'on rails' feel does instill more confidence and help most players out). But as a famous golf coach once said, "watch what the ball does and that will tell you if anything needs to change". Jim Furyk would have a swing overhaul lined up by every instructor that just saw him swinging a club. But if they watch him hit balls and watch what the balls do, they wouldn't dare change a damn thing. When a guy is running over 100 balls, hitting different types of stroke shots, and having that level of success, I'd be wary to make any suggestions for changes at all. Feels and sensation things aside ofc, bc they don't really change how things work, just have the player tap into what I'm sure they already feel/experience some of the time on specific types of shots and just try to expand that to other speeds and stroke types they use.

You are def deep into diminishing returns of development land. Minor tweaks only. Sorry, no one day level up for you...from anyone.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Fair enough.

Honestly, you're just an enigma to me as you've been on here forever but yet I've never seen you play or read a firsthand account of your instruction. That's just strange as we are approaching 20 years! I'm sure I've picked up little things here and there from your contributions on here, so for that I thank you. I just can't say this about any other instructor mentioned in this conversation. Maybe being an enigma isn't all bad.

I appreciate your thanks. I know it's hard to see beyond the trolls, Sparkle just said I "have no student affirmations" though students responded to his negativity in the Rate an Instructor subforum here! I think there is a quote from Tom Rossman on my teaching within.

Again, free lesson offered, I don't know why people have hours to post on AZ but not an hour for a free lesson. I hope you'll take it and then can YOU can post our video and your comments here to clear the air, right?

 

[WobblyStroke]

I don't know why people have hours to post on AZ but not an hour for a free lesson.

Maybe we're all just on here while 'at work' lol.

 

[BasementDweller]

Again, free lesson offered, I don't know why people have hours to post on AZ but not an hour for a free lesson. I hope you'll take it and then can YOU can post our video and your comments here to clear the air, right?

Easy...I can say the same about you as far as you having time to spend on here but not finding the time to post videos or student reviews, but I won't say that

Every year I say I'm not going to stop playing in the spring and summer but what do I do? I have a senior finishing school, a daughter beginning soccer districts -- and having a great season, AND I coach softball, so the table is lonely.

I wouldn't want any instruction when I'm not in stroke because my whole game is just a bit off.

P.S.
I love Tommy Kennedy and I'm glad he's doing better. I think he's one of the good guys in pool.

P.P.S.
I'm the only other person I've ever seen juggle balls on a table like TK. I totally stole that from him.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

This isn't a fair assessment.

It's my assessment. Doesn't matter whether you or anyone thinks it's fair or not. Below you gave your assessment.

It's really ONLY when instructors PUSH a very specific remedy or product that they get any flak.

Not true at all with the ONLY and PUSH part. They can be jumped on for anything depending on various factors. What do you think was "pushed" in this thread and by whom?

Or now, we have instructors clearly pushing their lessons on here, so they should expect some questions and even skepticism.

You don't think it could be called or categorized as an introduction to who they are and what they do as in "advertising?"

I think they are handling it just fine too. I mean, if you can't handle some minor pushback on a forum, maybe instructing isn't for you. Or just hangout in your social media echo chamber of choice and you can just delete anyone that questions you.

Why pushback? How about plain old questions and answers?

Clearly, not all instructors are created equal either. I remember in my early days of pool (late 1990's) we had a local room ower who was a BCA Certified instructor who literally couldn't run 5 balls.

Which neither of the two instructors can only do. Would you like to play either of them for some sets starting at $100 or higher?
I don't know either of them but my money is on them if you' like a side bet. Are you up for that?

Anyone that's honest about pool instruction, knows these types are still out there. While I think we've come a long ways since those early days, pool instruction may just now be reaching its adolescence.

Pool instruction is beyond adolescence by far. Pool players are NOT.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Maybe we're all just on here while 'at work' lol.

(!) Point taken.

 

[BilliardsAbout]

Easy...I can say the same about you as far as you having time to spend on here but not finding the time to post videos or student reviews, but I won't say that

Every year I say I'm not going to stop playing in the spring and summer but what do I do? I have a senior finishing school, a daughter beginning soccer districts -- and having a great season, AND I coach softball, so the table is lonely.

I wouldn't want any instruction when I'm not in stroke because my whole game is just a bit off.

P.S.
I love Tommy Kennedy and I'm glad he's doing better. I think he's one of the good guys in pool.

P.S.S.
I'm the only other person I've ever seen juggle balls on a table like TK. I totally stole that from him.

First sentence of a lesson, "Go ahead and hit a few balls, using your regular stance, practice strokes, etc. and don't try to hide your flaws, because that's why I'm here!"

Good point, I should post more videos. Thanks!

 

[BilliardsAbout]

This isn't a fair assessment. It's really only when instructors push a very specific remedy or product that they get any flak. Or now, we have instructors clearly pushing their lessons on here, so they should expect some questions and even skepticism. I think they are handling it just fine too. I mean, if you can't handle some minor pushback on a forum, maybe instructing isn't for you. Or just hangout in your social media echo chamber of choice and you can just delete anyone that questions you.

Clearly, not all instructors are created equal either. I remember in my early days of pool (late 1990's) we had a local room ower who was a BCA Certified instructor who literally couldn't run 5 balls. Anyone that's honest about pool instruction, knows these types are still out there. While I think we've come a long ways since those early days, pool instruction may just now be reaching its adolescence.

That's kind of my point! In the land of the blind teachers, the one-eyed teacher is king.

 

[BasementDweller]

It's my assessment. Doesn't matter whether you or anyone thinks it's fair or not. Below you gave your assessment.

I didn't say it wasn't your assessment and I know my opinion "doesn't matter" in the.big scheme of things. Just my opinion. Nothing more.

Not true at all with the ONLY and PUSH part. They can be jumped on for anything depending on various factors. What do you think was "pushed" in this thread and by whom?

You don't think it could be called or categorized as an introduction to who they are and what they do as in "advertising?"

Why pushback? How about plain old questions and answers?

Semantics. Call it whatever you wish. How about an Introductory Offer

Which neither of the two instructors can only do. Would you like to play either of them for some sets starting at $100 or higher?
I don't know either of them but my money is on them if you' like a side bet. Are you up for that?

Pool instruction is beyond adolescence by far. Pool players are NOT.

Do you ever get tired of the JB -- "I'll play you for X amount of dollars" method of discussion? That doesn't interest me. I'm sure I could handle myself just fine against many instructors and not do so well against others. But what does that matter, as I've never said an instructor has to beat ME to be legit? I do think there's a minimum level of play one must attain to be taken seriously. What level exactly, that's up to us to decide.

 

[BasementDweller]

How good does an instructor need to play (or have played) for me to consider them?

For me, I would want someone at least near 700 speed OR they would have to have a serious track record of bringing detailed information to the table that other instructors aren't. Maybe they have developed a seriously keen eye for identifying particular stroke flaws or something like that. Still a 600 level player is a pretty average 7 in the APA. That's were good play begins if you ask me. Playing at that speed and being able to see such flaws would be rare in my opinion.

To me, Beeler really fits this bill. I thought his response about his playing history was perfect. I wouldn't be opposed to getting instruction from him. I was just a bit critical of the click-baity type videos and posts he makes. I know...I know....that's just business but I don't like that stuff.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Do you ever get tired of the JB -- "I'll play you for X amount of dollars" method of discussion?

I didn't make a personal challenge to you. It was for one of the instructors. Hey, money talks...bullshit walks. Lou offered to play for some $20 games or sets if they come to St. Louis. And I say, good for him! Are you closed mouth about him saying it?

That doesn't interest me. I'm sure I could handle myself just fine against many instructors and not do so well against others.

Maybe you can, maybe you only think you can, and maybe you can't. Are you that well versed and practiced in all games? Are you used to playing for money?

But what does that matter, as I've never said an instructor has to beat ME to be legit? I do think there's a minimum level of play one must attain to be taken seriously. What level exactly, that's up to us to decide.

I think Anthony gave a long list of events he's played in. What else do you want or need?

 

[SpiderWebComm]

How good does an instructor need to play (or have played) for me to consider them?

For me, I would want someone at least near 700 speed OR they would have to have a serious track record of bringing detailed information to the table that other instructors aren't. Maybe they have developed a seriously keen eye for identifying particular stroke flaws or something like that. Still a 600 level player is a pretty average 7 in the APA. That's were good play begins if you ask me. Playing at that speed and being able to see such flaws would be rare in my opinion.

To me, Beeler really fits this bill. I thought his response about his playing history was perfect. I wouldn't be opposed to getting instruction from him. I was just a bit critical of the click-baity type videos and posts he makes. I know...I know....that's just business but I don't like that stuff.

So, when will you be booking your first lesson with him? Will it be in person or virtual?

 

[BasementDweller]

I didn't make a personal challenge to you. It was for one of the instructors. Hey, money talks...bullshit walks. Lou offered to play for some $20 games or sets if they come to St. Louis. And I say, good for him! Are you closed mouth about him saying it?

Lou can play whoever he wants. I don't care one way or the other.

Maybe you can, maybe you only think you can, and maybe you can't. Are you that well versed and practiced in all games? Are you used to playing for money?

I've won money. I've lost money. I don't really compete all that much. Pool has and will continue to be about #4 or #5 in my life but yet I play respectably. Actually for the time I've put in, I'm pretty happy with where I've gotten.

I think Anthony gave a long list of events he's played in. What else do you want or need?

Nothing. See above. You're assuming to much about my view on instructors and instruction. I just don't think they are all created equal.

 

[BasementDweller]

So, when will you be booking your first lesson with him? Will it be in person or virtual?

Not any time soon. TinMan is at the top of my list if my circumstances change.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Lou can play whoever he wants. I don't care one way or the other.

But if I throw a bet out there to nibble on, it's different. Huh? OK for Lou but I'm a JB.

I've won money. I've lost money. I don't really compete all that much.

So, in other words it's friendly type stuff that's like buying a few drinks for someone.

Pool has and will continue to be about #4 or #5 in my life but yet I play respectably. Actually for the time I've put in, I'm pretty happy with where I've gotten.

Good for you. It should be enjoyable.

Nothing. See above. You're assuming to much about my view on instructors and instruction. I just don't think they are all created equal.

That's for sure. None of them are created equal in many respects.

 

[BasementDweller]

But if I throw a bet out there to nibble on, it's different. Huh? OK for Lou but I'm a JB.

Some may wonder why you're so hung up on Lou??? I didn't mention Lou, just your directed bait at me. Look -- I enjoy the woofing. It doesn't offend me or anything. I just recognize it doesn't prove exactly what everyone thinks it does, and especially not in this situation.

So, in other words it's friendly type stuff that's like buying a few drinks for someone.

Whatever. It doesn't matter.

Good for you. It should be enjoyable.

That's for sure. None of them are created equal in many respects.

And that's the gist of it and what I'm interested in sorting out in my own way.

I think AZ is just different than other places. If you want to get students off of here you should understand there's a large collection of us that have been down a lot of different rabbit holes, we've done a lot of instruction, we've read a lot of books, we've competed, and watched thousands of hours of pool.

With all of that comes a different level of scrutiny than you should expect on social media or if you walked into a weeknight bar room pool league.

It's actually one of the things I like about this place.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

Some may wonder why you're so hung up on Lou??? I didn't mention Lou, just your directed bait at me.

Lou was the one who threw out a bet and it's here in black and white. I applaud him for it. I used it as a comparison to throwing a bet out to you and then you whined about it

I think AZ is just different than other places.

What other places? It's the only pool forum out there (that I know of) with the variety of subjects and pro tournament info regarding pool. There is no competition with this format.

If you want to get students off of here you should understand there's a large collection of us that have been down a lot of different rabbit holes, we've done a lot of instruction, we've read a lot of books, we've competed, and watched thousands of hours of pool.

And the point is? You know everything there is to know and are as good as you'll ever be? How about those who are newbies to the forum? Might THEY be interested in the live lessons offered by the instructors posting in this thread? Can't they make up their own minds based on their perceived needs? Do you think I'm some kind of newbie here that doesn't know the ropes, members backgrounds, their posting styles, their likes and dislikes, their skill and knowledge levels?
I joined here 3 years before you did and have 3 times the posts on this forum over 17 years.

Btw, you posted this: "Pool has and will continue to be about #4 or #5 in my life". With the amount of time you keep spending on posts back to me and on this forum, that doesn't seem to be close to the truth.

I'll say it for you...ADIOS! Over and OUT!

 

[Cuedup]

Forum users are older. Young newer players go elsewhere for their communication and information so it's mostly a bunch of bickering old guys.

 

[jokrswylde]

I will share my experience with an instructor. I was fortunate enough to have a 6 hour lesson with Scott Lee about 4 years ago. I had seen much of the free stuff online, all of tor Lowry's stuff, had paid for a membership for Max Eberle's online Pro Billiard Academy and watched every one of his posted instructional videos. Still, I was stuck bouncing between an SL 4 and 5 in 8 ball...

Now, I am a data guy...I like to see actual numbers and where I can improve. I run through Dr. Dave's curriculum and do ok, but one of my own sets of data is setting up a straight in corner to corner shot and shooting it 30 times (2 racks) and doing the same with a spot shot. This just helps me identify anything wonky with my stroke and/or gives me confidence that I am shooting straight and putting the cue ball where I am aiming.

During our first conversation, I explained all this to Scott and told him that over the past 6 months my average on the long straight in shot was 25/30. He felt like he could help me and recommended a 4 hour lesson. He came to my house with his video cameras and tv and got everything set up. He filmed me shooting a variety of shots for a while, then showed me in slo mo my elbow drop and how I was not finishing every shot at the same anchor point.

Then he went over the SPF sequence, measured my preferred bridge length, and gave me a specific anchor point to finish my stroke on (grip hand to right nipple).

Then he went over his book of mother drills with me and told me to practice and rewatch the dvd of our lesson periodically. Unfortunately, he had forgot to plug in the audio cable, so there was no sound. He agreed to come back in a few months for a free follow up since there was no sound. Tragically we couldn't get our schedules lined up and he passed away before we could get back together.

Scott was a super nice guy, very professional, and all around very likeable. I was diligent with the mother drills, meticulously recording my results and making notes. The SPF became 2nd. nature.

The end result?

My average on the long straight in shot went up to 27/30. I won my league MVP for Sl5 a few times, and now bounce between a SL 5 and SL6. I truly feel that I would have benefitted more from a different type of lesson. My stance, grip, and stroke were all pretty good according to Scott when he did the initial video analysis. Still, the entire 5+ hours was focused on stroke. I was hoping for more guidance on things like shot selection, pattern play, how/when to navigate clusters, etc. It just seemed like he would have taught the same lesson to a SL2 that barely knew how to hold a cue...

 

[lfigueroa]

All I know is that I'm sure glad I'm not a pool instructor posting on a pool forum to pool players. It's like being a leper
that has Covid and a brain of an imbecile with the acceptance and respect shown.
It's bad enough to be ostracized for taking lessons and touting it from a super instructor and player for a way of aiming because the seal of approval hasn't been given by the all-knowing ones of the forum since the inception of this site. The mere mentioning of his name and system are taboo with consequences if done. Now it's an all-out assault on anyone that teaches.
Where in the hell is Elon Musk to straighten things out when you need him?

I think part of the issue is that when it comes to pool any SD can claim to be an “instructor.”

Lou Figueroa