what does it really take to be an A or B player?

9 ball skill level is calculated like this:
Total balls made/ (Total innings - defensive innings)
SL 2 is 1 ball per inning (ave.)
SL 3 is 1.5. Each skill level goes up half a ball per inning.
9s are 4.5 and above, 1s are below 1.

APA attempts to only account for offensive innings, but lets face it that it is harder to keep up with a game of 5 innings with 3 defense than 2 innings (which to the APA are the same).
 
Thanks Steve. Looks like I need to focus on break and runs.

That actually brings up another strategy. Should I combo the 9 a lot or run out? I can usually break and drop a few balls but I've been passing up the combo a lot for points which leaves me in compromised positions to give up the game. Which is why I'm not so hot at 9-ball. The point system always confuses me since I'm used to the quick kill strategy.
 
Eh, just focus on having fun and playing consistent. I can tell you one thing, once you get to be too high skill level - your value to the team drops fast. (I hate that part of the APA) I barely get to play as a 9, as a result I quit my 9ball team as all i did was give coaches. I play more as an 8-ball SL7 but it often times puts the team into jeopardy if a couple other players go up.

My rule of thumb for combo vs. run-out is if the runout is wide open, go for it. if there is any tight positions or clusters, take the 2 pts and break again.
 
Thanks Steve.

I want to be at 6or7 then go to bca after the session I cap out.

boyersj said:
Eh, just focus on having fun and playing consistent. I can tell you one thing, once you get to be too high skill level - your value to the team drops fast. (I hate that part of the APA) I barely get to play as a 9, as a result I quit my 9ball team as all i did was give coaches. I play more as an 8-ball SL7 but it often times puts the team into jeopardy if a couple other players go up.

My rule of thumb for combo vs. run-out is if the runout is wide open, go for it. if there is any tight positions or clusters, take the 2 pts and break again.
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boyersj said:
Eh, just focus on having fun and playing consistent. I can tell you one thing, once you get to be too high skill level - your value to the team drops fast. (I hate that part of the APA) I barely get to play as a 9, as a result I quit my 9ball team as all i did was give coaches. I play more as an 8-ball SL7 but it often times puts the team into jeopardy if a couple other players go up.
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That isn't true for my team or the 2nd team I play on. my 7/9 always plays at least once and twice if the numbers work. It's rare at least in my area for a 7/9 not to play weekly. At least in my experience.

Is it common for you on your team(s) for multiple players to move up?
 
4onthebreak said:
You beat me to it. If you're running every 4 out of 5 racks you're a 7/9.

Period.
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if you run 80% of your 10 ball racks on a 9 foot table you should consider playing serious tournaments, given that its either break n run or opponent dry break and you run out.

Thats a very nice average!
 
JoeW said:
“A” players can be set apart from others players by their ability to control the cue ball. When you watch the top players they seldom get out of line. After many years of not being able to run racks I think it has finally occurred to me that positive control of every movement of the cue ball is the key.

There are many opinions about how one should play pool. Few of them emphasize the idea that however you play you must be very intentionally forcing the cue ball to do exactly what you want it to do.

Contrary to many instructional schemes, and based on my observations of excellent players, the top players have a firm grip on the cue stick when contact is made. They nearly always have complete follow through and hold the stick in position until well after cue ball-object ball contact is made. Pros seem to use a small amount of inside English on many shots to kill over spin and cue ball angle of return. Most of the top players appear to use only the English required to get position.

I think that if you want to be a top level player you must learn excellent control of the cue ball. Study the top players and watch how little they move the cue ball after contact unless required. I find it fascinating that when I predict the position a top level player will try to get that when I am wrong I usually err on the side of too much cue ball movement. They move the cue ball as little as possible and set their positions so this can be accomplished for the next shot.

For excellent players, it is all about positive cue ball control. I think that 75% of your time should be spent on cue ball control and 25% on aiming and pocketing. I am sure there are those who will disagree.

If you can't watch the pros anyplace else there are many videos on the internet. Type in your favorite pro player and click on the videos until you find matches that last about one hour or so. Then study their cue ball control trying to predict what they will do next.

While there are many people who disagree with me, I think an intermediate (or better) player can improve their play the most by playing the Ghost. Play the shots that you should play to win. Every time you miss, practice that shot until it is mastered. In this way you discover you real weaknesses and practice that which you really need to master to win matches.
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Nailed it. There's a lot of wisdom in this post.
 
4onthebreak said:
That isn't true for my team or the 2nd team I play on. my 7/9 always plays at least once and twice if the numbers work. It's rare at least in my area for a 7/9 not to play weekly. At least in my experience.

Is it common for you on your team(s) for multiple players to move up?
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It has always happened. I have not been on a team that each session at least someone has advanced in skill level. Often times, two people will go up a skill level. I teach my teammates to get better. Many 7/9s do not, but I do. I do not keep score, but I discuss every decision someone is going to make with the rest of the team. Why it is good or bad, and what I expect to happen. etc. I also have once a week practice session at my house.

It is my job, in my opinion, to work myself out of a job because giving back to pool is important to me and why I decided to become a PBIA instructor.
 
4onthebreak said:
You beat me to it. If you're running every 4 out of 5 racks you're a 7/9.

Period.
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The issue is since the APA software hasn't rated me yet since I don't have so many games as Steve pointed out the calculations.

I'm frustrated that I KNOW I am a better player, but the frickin APA thinks I'm not. We'll see when it updates.
 
You are an asset to your team while you are underrated, and you are not sandbagging to do it, so don't worry about it! Your rating will catch up to your true skill level if you indeed play anywhere close to what you are talking about.

I am a little confused - I'm a 7/9, and one of the best 7/9's in the area, there are only a few other 7/9's I would even worry about playing. I actually don't even play league much anymore but just got talked into a session of Masters by a buddy. I can't consistently play 10 ball ghost and get out 80% of the time, that's an average of 8 - 2 score over 10 games. Pretty fricking strong. I can go about 50/50 with the ghost in races to 7 or 9 playing 9-ball, but probably wouldn't even have the confidence to gamble on myself in a longer race unless I was playing well.

So either you are overestimating what you are doing at the table or you really shouldn't be worrying about your rating. I've been a 7/9 from the second week I joined APA and will never be lower, would be nice to be a 4 or 5 once in a while... :)

Scott
 
desertshark...Address this question to Jerry, when you meet with him. He has trained MANY champion pro players! I think your eyes will be opened a lot, after your lessons with him. :D

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
 
scottjen26 said:
You are an asset to your team while you are underrated, and you are not sandbagging to do it, so don't worry about it! Your rating will catch up to your true skill level if you indeed play anywhere close to what you are talking about.

I am a little confused - I'm a 7/9, and one of the best 7/9's in the area, there are only a few other 7/9's I would even worry about playing. I actually don't even play league much anymore but just got talked into a session of Masters by a buddy. I can't consistently play 10 ball ghost and get out 80% of the time, that's an average of 8 - 2 score over 10 games. Pretty fricking strong. I can go about 50/50 with the ghost in races to 7 or 9 playing 9-ball, but probably wouldn't even have the confidence to gamble on myself in a longer race unless I was playing well.

So either you are overestimating what you are doing at the table or you really shouldn't be worrying about your rating. I've been a 7/9 from the second week I joined APA and will never be lower, would be nice to be a 4 or 5 once in a while... :)

Scott
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I think I can attribute most of it on a healthy break, loose spread and starting ball in hand. Also I'm not on a shimmed table (9 foot none the less).

I have high goals for the APA, like ranking up and almost out then getting ranked in the bcapl.
 
Scott Lee said:
desertshark...Address this question to Jerry, when you meet with him. He has trained MANY champion pro players! I think your eyes will be opened a lot, after your lessons with him. :D

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
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But but but.... The reason I'm asking is so I know what I want to learn from Jerry!

I'm overly anticipating the 6+ hours on a 9-foot table with Jerry. I have heard nothing but great things about him, his products, technique and demeanor.

I can't wait to be honest, but more so I can't wait to see what my game will be like afterward...

Plus I can't wait to master a 9-foot table...
 
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desertshark...While it's fine to have a "wish list" of things you would like to address, your real need is to let your instructor evaluate you. Anytime I work with a student, who comes 'prepared' with a list of things they want to cover in the lesson, I'll ask them what do they want most out of the lesson?
The answer usually reverts to some generalization, like "better CB control",
"more accurate pocketing", "how to be more consistent", etc. No matter what the expectations are, almost everything will eventually revert to a better stroke process. I'll go through the lesson, and then go through the student's "list", making sure they see that everything they wanted addressed, has been addressed (and if not, go ahead and address it).

One basic fact to understand...you will not play better immediately after your lesson with Jerry. In fact, your skill will go down initially (provided you practice things the way he will teach you). That is the way it works with any quality instruction, or changes that you make. It's the dedicated practice afterwards where you realize the results you're wanting.

To a good player, there is no difference in table size. The shots are the same; the angles are the same (ball paths do not change suddenly because the table is larger). What you really need to do, is relax, go to your lesson with an open mind (and ears)...and then listen! :grin: By all means, take notes, or bring your own video camera to record the whole lesson (I do this, but I'm not sure if Jerry does, although he will do a video analysis of your stroke). Good luck, and report back after your lesson.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

desertshark said:
But but but.... The reason I'm asking is so I know what I want to learn from Jerry!

I'm overly anticipating the 6+ hours on a 9-foot table with Jerry. I have heard nothing but great things about him, his products, technique and demeanor.

I can't wait to be honest, but more so I can't wait to see what my game will be like afterward...

Plus I can't wait to master a 9-foot table...
Click to expand...
 
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I would like to supplement Scott by saying I received my lesson about 5 weeks ago. While I had some issues arise that prevented me to practice daily for 10 days. have went through a decline. However let me be crystal clear: I knew that my stroking process brought me to a certain plateau. I was unhappy with this plateau. I am still in the third tier of learning (conscious competence) but it is less consuming than it was 3 weeks ago. I am stroking with more confidence and am not afraid of any shot.

Definitely bring your own camera if you have one available. Also bring a notepad and pen just incase you want to take notes other than what may be provided in the lesson. As Scott said, open your mind... and also remember this: If you don't change something, your results are not going to change either.

Steve
 
I don't think Jerry will waste my time, but to be honest, I can't afford monthly lessons so I kind of want a laundry list. Trust me I have worked on the basics of stroke, grip, stance, through the cue ball and so on for hours. I know my weaknesses and I constantly work on them to turn them into assets. I'm sure I look better and play better than your average student coming out of the blue.

Every time I play, I learn something new no matter if its a money game, league match, friendly game or alone. I study matches on YouTube, Efren playing the ghost, Eberles' patterns videos, the big matches and troubleshots to watch out for and overcome. I've even watched Jerry's snippets on YouTube with his "spot stroke" training.

When I got on the table I start with basics; bridge, grip, stance, stroke and aim. Then work on speed, follow and draw. Then I work on run outs, patterns, cue control and then working through the hours of play fatigue, stress and mentally work through it.

I'm not your average "student" I am not discounting Jerry or his training, but on the same token, I shouldn't be discounted as some kid wanting to learn :wink:
 
I hear you...and nobody is suggesting that you're a beginner, with everything to learn. No way will this be a 'waste of time'! I will say, going in with an open mind is paramount. Jerry may "see" some things that you don't. It may feel wierd to make a change...but do it anyway. You'll be glad you did, in the long run.

BTW, you shouldn't have to work on your fundamentals "for hours". A few minutes every day should be enough (this is, of course, after you've had a chance to practice your "new thing"). While you may truly know your weaknesses, don't be surprised if Jerry points out some things. Keep in mind that he has trained champion players for decades. Jerry, like Randy and myself, have worked with every level of player, up to and including pros.

The people who seek us out, and get the most out of the time spent, empty their cup (of knowledge), even if just for that day, so that your mind is open to learning something new. The adage here is: "Don't let something you absolutely KNOW to be "true", get in the way of learning something you don't!" :grin: Best of luck with your lesson, and we all want to know how it goes, if you're willing to share! :thumbup:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

desertshark said:
I don't think Jerry will waste my time, but to be honest, I can't afford monthly lessons so I kind of want a laundry list. Trust me I have worked on the basics of stroke, grip, stance, through the cue ball and so on for hours. I know my weaknesses and I constantly work on them to turn them into assets. I'm sure I look better and play better than your average student coming out of the blue.

Every time I play, I learn something new no matter if its a money game, league match, friendly game or alone. I study matches on YouTube, Efren playing the ghost, Eberles' patterns videos, the big matches and troubleshots to watch out for and overcome. I've even watched Jerry's snippets on YouTube with his "spot stroke" training.

When I got on the table I start with basics; bridge, grip, stance, stroke and aim. Then work on speed, follow and draw. Then I work on run outs, patterns, cue control and then working through the hours of play fatigue, stress and mentally work through it.

I'm not your average "student" I am not discounting Jerry or his training, but on the same token, I shouldn't be discounted as some kid wanting to learn :wink:
Click to expand...
 
Thanks Scott! I'll be sure to add onto this thread once Jerry and I have a chance to tear some felt up. By speaking with him, he's already given me hope my game will improve. I guess I'm like a child in the final stretch before a birthday or Christmas. I have 3 games this week (4 if we are short handed on Wednesday nights, and I picked up a team Thursday too) so I need to get to work. Treading in any given ranking is driving me nuts... 9 ball tonight, and 8 ball the rest of the week on 9 footers so I should be well versed on the big table come Sunday. And actually, jerry made the suggestion to practice solely on the 9 foot as the bar boxes will be easier to navigate. ;)
 
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