What does it take?

[JimBo]

What is it that makes a great cuemaker?
What builds a person’s name and reputation?
I’m opening this question up for opinions and input, I’ve broken it down into a few categories, I’d love to hear what others feel are important, have I missed any and what order do you place them in. What do you feel is over rated and what have I left off the list. Do you feel the cuemaker has to be great in all aspects or just most? I have my own opinions but I’d love to hear from the rest of you.

1) Execution: From tip to bumper, How well the tip and ferrule are installed to the wrap (seam on leather) glue lines on inlays, are the points even (spliced cues) is the cue straight?

2) Consistency: Is every cue that comes out of his shop perfect? Wood selection, shaft
selection, quality of materials used. Do the cues have the same hit?

3) Fit and Finish: How the shafts screw on, how the finish holds up, any scratches or blemishes in the finish. Is it a UV finish or an epoxy?

4) Longevity & Reputation: Has the maker been pumping out good work for a long
time, have they built a name.

5) Design Work: Does the cuemaker have a look that is distinct to him. Is his work new
& cutting edge. Does he have a style all his own? Does his cues flow,
are the cues unique?

6) Do it all –v- Help: Does it matter if it’s a true one man shop or a group effort?
Does it matter if the person does all work himself or out sources
(ex. Prather points rather then making own, Doing his own art
work rather then sending it to Sandra Brady) Some guys claim to
make everything but the tip, does this matter??

7) Attention to detail: Do the rings on the shafts match the cue or are they basic black?
Do the shafts weigh the same?
Does the cue have joint protectors that match the cue?
Are the inlays sharp or rounded ?

As you can see I left off a few things, HIT being one main thing, I left off hit because as we can all agree it’s subjective. On number 6 I wonder how much effect it has if the cuemaker has 1 helper, or it’s a group effort (think Southwest) or just 1 guy. I want to hear what you think it takes to set the cuemaker above the rest. Think about your top 5 cuemakers and what puts them in that top 5, what do they do that sets them apart. What matters and why? What have I left off that you feel is important . Keep in mind I am talking about the *GREAT* ones, HOF guys.

Jim

 

[cueaddicts]

FIRST AND FOREMOST...........GREAT COPYING SKILLS

lol....just kidding there Jimbo.

 

[Worminator]

Here's one you left off that is very important to me...Customer Service. I'm not one to bug the living daylight out of a cuemaker building a cue for me, but I do expect him to answer my questions politely and in a timely fashion. I have actually become good friends with a few cuemakers because of their CS and people skills. It sure makes the experience more personal. On the other hand, there is one "great" cuemaker that I will never do business with again because of his poor customer service.

 

[JoeyInCali]

5) Design Work: Does the cuemaker have a look that is distinct to him. Is his work new
& cutting edge. Does he have a style all his own? Does his cues flow,
are the cues unique?


That's big.

 

[Koop]

IMO it depends on what you are looking for.

If you are a player then I would rank consistency very high, if not the highest.

If you are a collector then I would imagine cutting edge designs would be very attractive.

Other than that I think you covered it nicely and it's a great question.

Koop

 

[cueaddicts]

Here's something that I've come to really appreciate.

Shaking hands with a cuemaker whose paws don't feel like a baby's ass. That may not make much sense to some, but IMO those guys are the ones who are really pouring their heart and soul into making a cue. Not plug and play.

Sean

P.S. Honest and integrity are also both big on my list. And Jimbo has covered many other factors, too.

 

[Koop]

Here's something that I've come to really appreciate.

Shaking hands with a cuemaker whose paws don't feel like a baby's ass. That may not make much sense to some, but IMO those guys are the ones who are really pouring their heart and soul into making a cue. Not plug and play.

Sean

P.S. Honest and integrity are also both big on my list. And Jimbo has covered many other factors, too.

My God, have you met Mike Webb also

 

[pooldogue]

My God, have you met Mike Webb also

Thats funny Koop that is exactly what i was thinking............Man if it came down to the rough hand issue M. Webb might be the hands down (or hands rough) WINNER............................

 

[JimBo]

IMO it depends on what you are looking for.

If you are a player then I would rank consistency very high, if not the highest.

If you are a collector then I would imagine cutting edge designs would be very attractive.

Other than that I think you covered it nicely and it's a great question.

Koop

I'm asking for opinions on what makes a cuemaker into a *GREAT* cuemaker. If you were a collector it would make a difference as to what you wanted out of your collection, but I would guess you'd want to collect cues from *GREAT* cuemakers, so what in your opinion makes them great? Also I'd say that value would play a big roll and value is often determined by supply and demand, something that isn't a part of being great IMO.
I do however agree with Worm I should have added customer service and a small sub chapter called "cuemaker time". Oddly enough the Greater the cuemaker the more most people will put up with.

Jim

 

[cueaddicts]

I'm asking for opinions on what makes a cuemaker into a *GREAT* cuemaker. If you were a collector it would make a difference as to what you wanted out of your collection, but I would guess you'd want to collect cues from *GREAT* cuemakers, so what in your opinion makes them great? Also I'd say that value would play a big roll and value is often determined by supply and demand, something that isn't a part of being great IMO.
I do however agree with Worm I should have added customer service and a small sub chapter called "cuemaker time". Oddly enough the Greater the cuemaker the more most people will put up with.

Jim

Here's another........PASSION.

 

[Chris]

What is it that makes a great cuemaker?
What builds a person’s name and reputation?
I’m opening this question up for opinions and input, I’ve broken it down into a few categories, I’d love to hear what others feel are important, have I missed any and what order do you place them in. What do you feel is over rated and what have I left off the list. Do you feel the cuemaker has to be great in all aspects or just most? I have my own opinions but I’d love to hear from the rest of you.

1) Execution: From tip to bumper, How well the tip and ferrule are installed to the wrap (seam on leather) glue lines on inlays, are the points even (spliced cues) is the cue straight?

I think most cuemakers are able to competently install ferrules and tips. I don't like to see glue lines. I think you will have a hard time finding any cue with absolutely even (spliced) points. It is a matter of how closely one must scrutinize to notice the difference. Do they differ in length by an inch, a tenth of an inch or a hundredth of an inch? Straightness in a new cue is pretty important, but again, how closely are you scrutinizing?

2) Consistency: Is every cue that comes out of his shop perfect? Wood selection, shaft
selection, quality of materials used. Do the cues have the same hit?

Perfection is a nice idea, but good luck attaining it. Ask any real perfectionist; there is always room for improvement. Likewise, there will be subtle differences in the hit of any two cues.

3) Fit and Finish: How the shafts screw on, how the finish holds up, any scratches or blemishes in the finish. Is it a UV finish or an epoxy?

If you look closely enough, you will find imperfections in any finish. Some cues will require you to look more closely than others.

4) Longevity & Reputation: Has the maker been pumping out good work for a long time, have they built a name.

If the maker hasn't already made a name for himself, he may do so in the future.

5) Design Work: Does the cuemaker have a look that is distinct to him. Is his work new & cutting edge. Does he have a style all his own? Does his cues flow, are the cues unique?

I don't think this matters much. A nice classic design often looks better than "new & cutting edge" designs. There is no need to reinvent the wheel. Additionally, cosmetic design is often done by the customer; the cuemaker then executes the design.

6) Do it all –v- Help: Does it matter if it’s a true one man shop or a group effort? Does it matter if the person does all work himself or out sources (ex. Prather points rather then making own, Doing his own artwork rather then sending it to Sandra Brady) Some guys claim to make everything but the tip, does this matter?? . . . I wonder how much effect it has if the cuemaker has 1 helper, or it’s a group effort (think Southwest) or just 1 guy.

Either way can work well. Didn't Balabushka use others' blanks? Having help in and of itself doesn't make the cuemaker less reputable.

7) Attention to detail: Do the rings on the shafts match the cue or are they basic black?
Do the shafts weigh the same?
Does the cue have joint protectors that match the cue?
Are the inlays sharp or rounded ?

With the exception of the shaft weight (and sometimes then) these are usually the customer's decision. When I ordered my custom playing cue, I could have had sharp points on my inlays if I had been willing to pay for the extra labor involved, but frankly, it wasn't that important to me. I could have opted for rings in the A & B position, but didn't want them there. I could have opted to not get matching JPs, but I thought they were a nice touch.

As you can see I left off a few things, HIT being one main thing, I left off hit because as we can all agree it’s subjective. I want to hear what you think it takes to set the cuemaker above the rest. Think about your top 5 cuemakers and what puts them in that top 5, what do they do that sets them apart. What matters and why? What have I left off that you feel is important . Keep in mind I am talking about the *GREAT* ones, HOF guys.

Jim

Personally, I think the hit is the most important aspect of any cue. No matter how well the cosmetic aspects of the cue are executed, if the hit is not there, what good is the cue? On the other hand, if the cue is a monster hitter, does it matter if it is not cosmetically "perfect?"

Since the vast majority of cues are not made by Hall of Famers, I didn't restrict my comments to their cues. Of course, I'm not a collector; I just like to play.

Just my $.02

 

[ScottR]

IMHO . . . . in order, the factors are:

1. Consistent quality execution of the build. A "bad" cue does not leave the shop.

2. Without using the "H" word, the cues coming out of this shop need to be generally acknowledged as good, if not great, playing cues. They may not please everybody, but most will say "those cues play well."

3. Designs that "stand out" in a crowd. That can be a reinterpretation of classic design points in a new pattern, new shapes of inlays or dimensions (points that go to almost the joint for instance), or totally new designs that the technology allows (4D CNC work by Stroud or McWorter, for example).

4. The cue maker can, and wants to, deliver what the customer requests; within reason. They can get the weight, balance point, length, diameter (shaft AND butt), materials and style that the customer requests. Again, all within what the cue maker feels will fit into his preferred construction methods. In other words, don't try to tell a cue maker how to do his "A" joint, or force them to core if they don't believe in it!

5. For the person to be considered HOF material (versus the shop, a la SW), he should do most, if not all of the work. Having a helper or apprentice or two doesn't hurt. But, they should not be "building" the cues. Where to draw the line, huh?

6. Finally, someone who brings something new to the industry. That can be tools, methods, designs, materials or even the "business" of cue making.

 

[JimBo]

Personally, I think the hit is the most important aspect of any cue. No matter how well the cosmetic aspects of the cue are executed, if the hit is not there, what good is the cue? On the other hand, if the cue is a monster hitter, does it matter if it is not cosmetically "perfect?"

Since the vast majority of cues are not made by Hall of Famers, I didn't restrict my comments to their cues. Of course, I'm not a collector; I just like to play.

Just my $.02

Your post only ignored the point of my question, so maybe I'll ask you again.
What in *YOUR* mind makes a cuemaker a *GREAT* cuemaker.
You can go on and on about how you think *HIT* is the key and then talk about "Monster Hitter" you might as well be talking about a unicorn, there is no such thing as a "Monster Hitter" that's in your head, what you think of as a "Monster Hitter" and what I think of are 2 different things, each person has a hit they prefer, some like a soft hit, some like a stiff hit, what I think of as a whippy shaft may fit your game. It's a joke when people on this forum post shit about the *HIT* of a cue because it's totally meaningless. Sure cuemakers can change joints, tapers and tips and it will all effect the way a cue plays none of that matters in the total construction of the cue, it's not what joint they use or what tip it's how they do the work to install the tip and joint that makes them a cue maker.
So if you can please go back and instead of trying to tear apart what I wrote tell me what you think makes a cuemaker a *great* cuemaker.

Jim

 

[Cornerman]

What is it that makes a great cuemaker?
What builds a person’s name and reputation?

Quality, Uniqueness, Public Relations and the willingness to do high-end cues. Not necessarily in equal amounts.

In the past when there weren't many cuemakers, uniqueness played less of a role. So those cuemakers already got their foot in the "great cuemaker" door.

But, with so many cuemakers today, if you're not unique, you're not going to get much play on the air waves. There are a ton of high quality cuemakers today.

And related to that, it's also who you know. Some talented cuemakers ride the coat tails of their peers just by being part of the association. Whereas, they may never have gotten so much press if they stayed within their own acre of land.

Fred

 

[Chris]

Your post only ignored the point of my question, so maybe I'll ask you again.
What in *YOUR* mind makes a cuemaker a *GREAT* cuemaker.
You can go on and on about how you think *HIT* is the key and then talk about "Monster Hitter" you might as well be talking about a unicorn, there is no such thing as a "Monster Hitter" that's in your head, what you think of as a "Monster Hitter" and what I think of are 2 different things, each person has a hit they prefer, some like a soft hit, some like a stiff hit, what I think of as a whippy shaft may fit your game. It's a joke when people on this forum post shit about the *HIT* of a cue because it's totally meaningless. Sure cuemakers can change joints, tapers and tips and it will all effect the way a cue plays none of that matters in the total construction of the cue, it's not what joint they use or what tip it's how they do the work to install the tip and joint that makes them a cue maker.
So if you can please go back and instead of trying to tear apart what I wrote tell me what you think makes a cuemaker a *great* cuemaker.

Jim

You asked a question; I answered it. I wasn't trying to "tear apart what [you] wrote." Sorry if you didn't like my answer, but you did ask for others' opinions. I offered mine. I claimed to speak for no one but myself.

I included the subjective quality of hit to make a point: being a great cuemaker is a very subjective thing. Everyone is not going to agree on which ones are the greatest. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. There is rarely a "best" way of doing things.

Everyone collector and player are going to have their favorite cues and cuemakers. Often it will be for individual reasons. It's all subjective.


Now it's off to the pool room for me!

 

[Cornerman]

I included the subjective quality of hit to make a point: being a great cuemaker is a very subjective thing. Everyone is not going to agree on which ones are the greatest

Then what do you think makes a great cuemaker? Would
you be willing to call so-and-so a "great cuemaker" even without hitting a ball with the cue?

Fred

 

[Hunter]

I think that the truly great maker LACKS COMPLACENCY... They are not simply willing to go with the flow. They usually seem to be on the cutting edge of balancing customer relationships with their craft, in order to insure that they remain in business, but never seem to "sell out" to the masses.

They seem to have a clear view of the direction they want to head in, and are willing and able to lead their customers with them. Some strive for design creativity. Those that don't, work on perfecting their craft to new and previously unheard of levels. Quality becomes their calling card. There are those that are great innovators, designing new joints, experimenting with new tapers and tips, etc., that change the way the game is played. The really great cuemakers seem to be the ones that have a well rounded experience, and then choose their path.

They remind me of great artists like Van Gogh. Lots of people didn't know him for anything other than his abstract art. They don't realize he started as a Flemish realist that could paint an absolutely lifelike portrait. He was also from the classic school that made their own paints and pigments. You have to be a great student to ever hope to be a master.

I also think that every real HOF level cuemaker has more than a little crazy to them, just like most primadonnas in any field. They become "characters", of sorts. The good ones march to a different drummer, but the great ones get you to join them on their march...

 

[ScottR]

Excellent points, Steve!

 

[pharaoh68]

I think there are a number of things that make a great cuemaker. For starters, I would expect that the very best be easy to work with. Now that's not to say that he has to be a sweetheart and make you coffee or anything like that. But he should understand that if he is taking an order or buidling a cue for someone, he should then be working to please that individual.

Secondly, execution is key. So many cuemakers wind up putting out cues nowadays with points that don't line up, veneers that trail off into one another or, sloppy inlay work. This is not the mark of excellence. And speaking of inlays, there are a numbers of cuemakers out there who put out cues with razor sharp points and rounded inlays and that kind of contrast is just plain unattractive.

Consistency is perhaps the biggest factor. While JimBo is right, it is too hard to judge hit based on how subjective it is, one can judge the consistency of a cuemakers hit. And while all cuemakers will deal with a little range in hit on their cues due to wood choices and design type, most should have a general feel to them. For example, Southwest has a specific SW feel to their cues. Whether you are a hitting with a 6 pointer, a 9 pointer, a fancy SW, or a satin SW, there is a general feel to a SW that is almost like a trademark.

Design and creativity are important because I feel that a cuemaker should be creative in his designs, exploring new ideas and not simply pumping out the old catalog cues over and over. As well, his cues should be uniquely his own. For example, you can tell when you are looking at a Gina. John Showman has a Boti influence but his cues stand apart and are uniquely his. Mottey and White have been accused of copying before and while they may have, they also have their own unique styles. You can look at a Mottey, a McWorter, a Bender and recognize what it is.

Precision is also essential. I would rather have a cuemaker spend countless hours laboring over something because he wants to ensure that his finished product is perfect. I remember reading about the diamond's Searing fancy Searing with the seamless ivory rings. Dennis said that he wasted a lot of ivory and spent countless hours trying to craft those rings as perfectly as he did. That is admirable. He had a vision and he wanted to bring it to life no matter how much labor it required.


To me, these are the marks of a great cuemaker. Time in the game should have little to do with it. Though I understand that people are looking for a degree of consistency and excellence established over a period of time, a track record of consistently beautiful, well-crafted cues over any period of time is something that should be noted.

 

[TATE]

I'm asking for opinions on what makes a cuemaker into a *GREAT* cuemaker. If you were a collector it would make a difference as to what you wanted out of your collection, but I would guess you'd want to collect cues from *GREAT* cuemakers, so what in your opinion makes them great? Also I'd say that value would play a big roll and value is often determined by supply and demand, something that isn't a part of being great IMO.
I do however agree with Worm I should have added customer service and a small sub chapter called "cuemaker time". Oddly enough the Greater the cuemaker the more most people will put up with.

Jim

I believe the "Greats" are able to impart in the player, the beholder, the cueist, and the collector a statement by their work. Whether it's the feel or the look or both, they move us. They are able to convery a feeling, not by word, but by craftsmanship and design, that this cue maker and this cue is special.

I look at Tad and am amazed by the rich folks falling all over themselves to get in line to pay $25,000 to $50,000for one of his ivory cues. (The waiting list is closed, thanks for asking). Now, that's exclusive! I hold Tad in high esteem that so many people would clamor to pay so much for his limited work.

Frank Paradise had "the Mystique" even though the work was - how you say -crappy. He made cues for the most famous movie stars and players of the era.

Having a following of pro players can make a cue maker great too, but that alone is not enough.

Being technically perfect is the playground of the machine, but it is not the playground of a Picasso or a Van Gogh. The machine will not move you and make you think. It will not make you feel. It doesn't communicate.

What makes a cue maker great? We do.

Chris