What does Team USA’s Mosconi Cup future look like?

[decent dennis]

Out of last 19 MC's the US has won 6 and tied 1. Some track record, huh. European pool is just better. Better training, better organization, everything. Hell, based on some comments here even their haircuts and dress is better. They could form 2-3 teams that could still win.

And yet their records are13-13-1

 

[garczar]

And yet their records are13-13-1

Big deal. Current history is all that matters here. US has been the dog in this deal for a while now.

 

[sjm]

I didn`t find time to reply yesterday, but here are my thoughts:

The European Championships have developed into a very important tournament because they bring fame to the winners and fame equals governmental funding and sponsorship contracts. I agree that this develops better rounded players, since every discipline is a chance to raise into the elite group of players who don`t have to worry about money and can focus on just playing pool.

The German league is the strongest league in the world today, but this is a quite recent development. Ortmann, Souquet, Eckert, Engert and maybe even Hohmann are not products of a league system, but come from the same pool playing background as their American counterparts. Bars, smoke, a certain Tom Cruise movie and yes, even gambling.
But even then, the Germans were far ahead of their time in pool Europe with Tom Storm and maybe Austria´s Werner Duregger, who came close to something you can call a professional level. It wasn`t only marketing reasons to put a lot of snooker players into the early MC teams, it was the fact that nearly all of Europe was in the middle of stone age when it came to pool.

But at this time two very important things happened:
First of all some players realized the importance of a clean image if you want to be seen as an athlete and as you know Souquet and Eckert are still raw models for pool players today and someone like Jasmin Ouschan living this attitude to perfection.
Secondly other players realized if they want to learn and become better, they have to go to the place on earth were the best pool is played. So Mika, Thorsten, Allison Fisher, Gerda Hofstätter and even Nils Feijen in his early years came to the US.
...and time after time the Dutch developed their pool programm, Polish player became better and better, German League, the Austrians could build on Jasmin`s popularity and so on and so on.

I also have a little bit different opinion on the impact of Snooker, English 8ball and Pyramid on the European Pool scene. I think it is more of an indirect influence or better said it HAD an indirect influence.
It is very true that these games develop straight shooters, which lead to very successful players on the European pool scene. But the main consequences were, that the "real" pool players had to think about how they still can compete with those new opponents. So they for themselves became straighter shooters, worked harder on their basics and tried to master the pool specific skills like the break, jumps, banks and kicks the former snooker and pyramid players were missing. Which lead to players like Mark Gray, Tony Drago, Daryl Peach, Imran Majid, Boyes or Stalev slowly disappearing from the leaderboards.

Wow, thank you for one of the most informative posts I've ever read on this forum about the development of European pool over the years. I must concede that I had no idea that the European league system, that, we both agree, has done wonders for the increase in the development of European pool, was not around when future WPA World 9-ball Champions Ortmann, Hohmann, and Souquet were in their formative years as players. I had mistakenly assumed they were products of the German league system that is the envy of the pool world.

In addition, the point you make about how snooker players, English 8-ball players, and Russian pyramid players is an important one. Not only did more than a few of them go on to be world class pool players, but, as a group, they pushed all European pool players to either hone their skills or suffer a decline in their ability to compete successfully. This definitely helped raise the pedigree of European pool players in a way that is, as you note, indirect but important.

There's little question that you're also right about the higher level of professionalism found among European pool players than what we see among most Americans. As politely as possible, Emily Frazer made the same observation in a recent interview conducted by AZB founder Mike Howerton. Now holding the reins of pool's short-term development, Matchroom has committed itself to doing something about the image projected by American pool pros. Americans tend to live in denial about this failing, and the typical attitude encountered is "we'll dress the part and conduct ourselves more professionally once we're paid more." Europeans are making just as little money, probably even quite a bit less, than their American counterparts, but they don't see things that way. They recognize that displays of professionalism and self-respect are good for both them and their sport.

I hope to see more of your posts on this forum, for I can see you have a lot to contribute.

 

[Rico]

I believe this notion to be a long standing myth. There's not much money in hustling pool these days.

If you pic a country in Europe to compete with the USA it would be a joke. Now if you pic a country in the world it might just be Taiwan. Now i agree we grab every kid and get him gambling before he can even chalk correctly The leeches cant wait to live off them . We had as good if not the best junior player and maybe one of the best period in Landon Shuffet. But the pool world wasnt for him. If we had a real jr program learn to play we wouldnt have these railbird discussions.Win loose or draw U.S.A.

 

[jokrswylde]

Wow, thank you for one of the most informative threads I've ever read on this forum about the development of European pool over the years. I must concede that I had no idea that the European league system, that, we both agree, has done wonders for the increase in the development of European pool, was not around when future WPA World 9-ball Champions Ortmann, Hohmann, and Souquet were in their formative years as players. I had mistakenly assumed they were products of the German league system that is the envy of the pool world.

In addition, the point you make about how snooker players, English 8-ball players, and Russian pyramid players is an important one. Not only did more than a few of them go on to be world class pool players, but, as a group, they pushed all European pool players to either hone their skills or suffer a decline in their ability to compete successfully. This definitely helped raise the pedigree of European pool players in a way that is, as you note, indirect but important.

There's little question that you're also right about the higher level of professionalism found among European pool players than what we see among most Americans. As politely as possible, Emily Frazer made the same observation in a recent interview conducted by AZB founder Mike Howerton. Now holding the reins of pool's short-term development, Matchroom has committed itself to doing something about the image projected by American pool pros. Americans tend to live in denial about this failing, and the typical attitude encountered is "we'll dress the part and conduct ourselves more professionally once we're paid more." Europeans are making just as little money, probably even quite a bit less, than their American counterparts, but they don't see things that way. They recognize that displays of professionalism and self-respect are good for both them and their sport.

I hope to see more of your posts on this forum, for I can see you have a lot to contribute.

So it begs the question, can both "versions" of pool coexist? What I mean is, is the image of the bleary eyed road player surviving off of nicotine and caffeine as they travel from seedy bar to seedy bar "betting high", interfering or even preventing the development of a higher standard of professionalism? This romanticized image of gun slinger like in the old west is what attracts many people to the game. I've never been, but have heard from several people that the most fun they've ever had at a pool event was just hanging around the action room at Derby City.

Will those same people still be as into pool if, say, players are competing in tuxes and bowties and the crowd sits on their hand except for the occasional "golf clap"? Is it worth alienating one group of folks to appease another? Or is their a way for both to grow and coexist together?

I wonder, especially with the number of pool halls and bars closed, how much longer you will be able to find any recreational 9 foot tables. It will be even more important in the coming years to maximize profit per square foot. What if the 7 foot table becomes the industry standard? How many pool "purists" will throw up their hands in disgust and walk away?

 

[garczar]

Wow, thank you for one of the most informative threads I've ever read on this forum about the development of European pool over the years. I must concede that I had no idea that the European league system, that, we both agree, has done wonders for the increase in the development of European pool, was not around when future WPA World 9-ball Champions Ortmann, Hohmann, and Souquet were in their formative years as players. I had mistakenly assumed they were products of the German league system that is the envy of the pool world.

In addition, the point you make about how snooker players, English 8-ball players, and Russian pyramid players is an important one. Not only did more than a few of them go on to be world class pool players, but, as a group, they pushed all European pool players to either hone their skills or suffer a decline in their ability to compete successfully. This definitely helped raise the pedigree of European pool players in a way that is, as you note, indirect but important.

There's little question that you're also right about the higher level of professionalism found among European pool players than what we see among most Americans. As politely as possible, Emily Frazer made the same observation in a recent interview conducted by AZB founder Mike Howerton. Now holding the reins of pool's short-term development, Matchroom has committed itself to doing something about the image projected by American pool pros. Americans tend to live in denial about this failing, and the typical attitude encountered is "we'll dress the part and conduct ourselves more professionally once we're paid more." Europeans are making just as little money, probably even quite a bit less, than their American counterparts, but they don't see things that way. They recognize that displays of professionalism and self-respect are good for both them and their sport.

I hope to see more of your posts on this forum, for I can see you have a lot to contribute.

Back when the IPT was starting my room, Magoo's in Tulsa, held qualifiers. One cat that came over was a German guy named Kevin Becker. Super nice guy and a product of the German 14.1 leagues. This kid, about 20-21 at time, could REALLY dab it at all games. I talked to him about how he got to his level and he laid out how it worked back home. I was stunned at how well organized and well attended pool was there. I knew back then that US pool was in trouble in the long term.

 

[jalapus logan]

If you pic a country in Europe to compete with the USA it would be a joke. Now if you pic a country in the world it might just be Taiwan. Now i agree we grab every kid and get him gambling before he can even chalk correctly The leeches cant wait to live off them . We had as good if not the best junior player and maybe one of the best period in Landon Shuffet. But the pool world wasnt for him. If we had a real jr program learn to play we wouldnt have these railbird discussions.Win loose or draw U.S.A.

True nuff. Landon seems like a level headed young man for sure. I can't blame him one bit for investing his time outside of the pool world despite his considerable ability and potential.

 

[jalapus logan]

I was skeptical about pool team events, but the Mosconi Cup events are generally pretty fun and exciting, so I'm open to more team events...hell, let Matchroom do a team league worldwide for us all to enjoy. I'd tune in on the regular for that, and I don't follow much pro pool presently, but I would in that case. Team PHI vs. Tiawan would be something to behold. Actually, multiple teams from PHI, Tiawan, Eurozone, US, etc would be really fun and I think a market could be cultivated for such a league.

 

[Taxi]

If you pic a country in Europe to compete with the USA it would be a joke. Now if you pic a country in the world it might just be Taiwan.

I'm not that familiar with Austria's backup players, but I'd be willing to match Ouschan, He and Lechner against Van Boening, Sky and Bergman. They may or may not win, but it sure wouldn't be a joke.

 

[sjm]

So it begs the question, can both "versions" of pool coexist? What I mean is, is the image of the bleary eyed road player surviving off of nicotine and caffeine as they travel from seedy bar to seedy bar "betting high", interfering or even preventing the development of a higher standard of professionalism? This romanticized image of gun slinger like in the old west is what attracts many people to the game. I've never been, but have heard from several people that the most fun they've ever had at a pool event was just hanging around the action room at Derby City.

Will those same people still be as into pool if, say, players are competing in tuxes and bowties and the crowd sits on their hand except for the occasional "golf clap"? Is it worth alienating one group of folks to appease another? Or is their a way for both to grow and coexist together?

I wonder, especially with the number of pool halls and bars closed, how much longer you will be able to find any recreational 9 foot tables. It will be even more important in the coming years to maximize profit per square foot. What if the 7 foot table becomes the industry standard? How many pool "purists" will throw up their hands in disgust and walk away?

The time for tuxes and bowties has long since passed. They were staples of the top straight pool events, and with a few notable exceptions, were gone by the end of the 1980s.

In the nine ball era, however, a tasteful shirt with a collar, untorn long pants, a reasonably groomed appearance, and avoidance of profane behavior and language would be more than enough for Emily Frazer in her quest to present American pool players as more professional.

The road player will always be around in America, but the professionals must present themselves differently in both competition and in poolrooms.

I recall a time when I was considering sponsoring a pro player some years ago. It seemed every time I saw them, they were wearing a T-shirt that advertised some type of hard liquor. I particularly remember their "Jose Cuervo Tequila" T-shirt. I felt I had to ask them if they had an issue with alcohol, and it turned out they didn't even drink alcohol. I explained to them that these T-shirts were beneath the standards of how a pro should present themselves to their public (no doubt, there's someone out there who disagrees). To this player's credit, they stopped wearing these T-shirts (which, it turned out, they'd been given for free by someone who worked for a major liquor distributor) and, in my opinion, they gradually became one of the best dressed pros out there. No, I won't offer their name.

Self-respect doesn't seem to come naturally for the American pool players and it's definitely, in part, because, far too often, their roots lie in the seedy world of action pool, in which a slovenly appearance is not only common, but in which a slovenly appearance is often viewed as a means of hooking an unsuspecting victim. So the answer to your question is yes, the image and life of the road player is, at times, obstructing the process of developing pro players.

As for the nine footer in the poolroom, I doubt it's on the endangered list. Sadly, some pool halls will go under, but in the end the supply will rise up again to meet the demand for serious league pool, and as far as I can see, the demand hasn't dropped significantly due to the pandemic. Still, it may take a few years for things to return to normal.

 

[Robb Browning]

There's no support system in the US and THAT is the problem.

We get the alienated kids from broken families, who hate school and our culture, to this day, labels them bad kids. They wander into pool rooms and find their rebellious purpose and years later they get good and get kicked out because they start making more money than the pool room is making..... and then every pool room in town bars them......, which does nothing but make them more angry, more abandoned and more tormented.

The ones you see playing in these big tournaments are the rare exceptions who found good mentors or had the genetic strength to keep their heads straight and keep progressing. Most wind up on drugs, lost, empty, hateful and too jaded to do much of anything productive.

America is an abusive country that disposes of human beings that are not conformist-puppets...... until they win... (then they're like the Bad News Bears) and then everyone loves them and says they know them...., but when they lose they're hated and disposed of again.

If you want to know THE TRUTH of the problem - go out and try it, or watch your kid try it. THEN you will see what it's REALLY all about.

 

[sjm]

I'm not that familiar with Austria's backup players, but I'd be willing to match Ouschan, He and Lechner against Van Boening, Sky and Bergman. They may or may not win, but it sure wouldn't be a joke.

Polish players Kaplan, Sniegocki, Skowerski, Zielinski, Szewczyk, Fortunski and Juszczyszyn, are all among the world's top 100 based on Fargo rate, and a team consisting of any five of them could give Team USA a very tough match, too. Poland has only 37,000,000 people, too. America has to look itself in the mirror and ask why such a small country by population is producing all these great players. Obviously, they are doing something that we are not.

 

[jokrswylde]

The time for tuxes and bowties has long since passed. They were staples of the top straight pool events, and with a few notable exceptions, were gone by the end of the 1980s.

In the nine ball era, however, a tasteful shirt with a collar, untorn long pants, a reasonably groomed appearance, and avoidance of profane behavior and language would be more than enough for Emily Frazer in her quest to present American pool players as more professional.

The road player will always be around in America, but the professional must present themselves differently in both competition and in poolrooms.

I recall a time when I was considering sponsoring a pro player some years ago. It seemed every time I saw them, they were wearing a T-shirt that advertised some type of hard liquor. I particularly remember their "Jose Cuervo Tequila" T-shirt. I felt I had to ask them if they had an issue with alcohol, and it turned out they didn't even drink alcohol. I explained to them that these T-shirts were beneath the standards of how a pro should present themselves to their public (no doubt, there's someone out there who disagrees). To this player's credit, they stopped wearing these T-shirts (which, it turned out, they'd been given for free by someone who worked for a major liquor distributor) and, in my opinion, they gradually became one of the best dressed pros out there. No, I won't offer their name.

Self-respect doesn't seem to come naturally for the American pool players and it's definitely, in part, because, far too often, their roots lie in the seedy world of action pool, in which a slovenly appearance is not only common, but in which a slovenly appearance is often viewed as a means of hooking an unsuspecting victim. So the answer to your question is yes, the image and life of the road player is, at times, obstructing the process of developing pro players.

As for the nine footer in the poolroom, I doubt it's on the endangered list. Sadly, some pool halls will go under, but in the end the supply will rise up again to meet the demand for serious league pool, and as far as I can see, the demand hasn't dropped significantly due to the pandemic. Still, it may take a few years for things to return to normal.

Well put! I have attended the Music City Open the last few years, hardly a top tier professional tournament, but I was surprised at the number of pro/ semi pro players who played in sweat pants, ripped up jeans, athletic slides with socks, and a few in short pants (in the middle of winter!)

I get wanting to be comfortable, but I was always taught as a kid that when out in public, I represented everyone in my family, so act with class and carry myself with some pride. 40 years later and I still believe that.

 

[ChrisinNC]

There's no support system in the US and THAT is the problem.

We get the alienated kids from broken families, who hate school and our culture, to this day, labels them bad kids. They wonder into pool rooms and find their rebellious purpose and years later they get good and get kicked out because they start making more money than the pool room is making..... and then every pool room in town bars them......, which does nothing but make them more angry, more abandoned and more tormented.

The ones you see playing in these big tournaments are the rare exceptions who found good mentors or had the genetic strength to keep their heads straight and keep progressing. Most wind up on drugs, lost, empty, hateful and too jaded to do much of anything productive.

America is an abusive country that disposes of human beings that are not conformist-puppets...... until they win... and then everyone loves them and says they know them...., but when they lose they're hated and disposed of again.

If you want to know THE TRUTH of the problem - go out and try it, or watch your kid try it. THEN you will see what it's REALLY all about.

Tap tap tap !

 

[garczar]

Polish players Kaplan, Sniegocki, Skowerski, Zielinski, Szewczyk, Kaplan, Fortunski and Juszczyszyn, are all among the world's top 100 based on Fargo rate, and a team consisting of any five of them could give Team USA a very tough match, too. Poland has only 37,000,000 people, too. America has to look itself in the mirror and ask why such a small country by population is producing all these great players. Obviously, they are doing something that we are not.

I'm going to post 'pre condolences' to ANY announcer that would have to pronounce names of an all-Polish squad. Seriously, these cats can REALLY play folks. Really like watching Zielinski. Won't need a shot clock for this kid. TWENTY-NINE minute final:

 

[Brozif]

I'm going to post 'pre condolences' to ANY announcer that would have to pronounce names of an all-Polish squad. Seriously, these cats can REALLY play folks. Really like watching Zielinski. Won't need a shot clock for this kid. TWENTY-NINE minute final:

Well that was scary! Zielinski’s kind of a beast! Was he unconscious during that match, or does he always play that strong?

 

[sjm]

Ditto. Zielinski is one serious talent.

 

[Scott Lee]

If you want to play pool for living in Europe, you need to be damn good. In the US you can be a solid player and go hustle amateurs or play small tournaments with a pretty solid prize.
Amateur tournaments in the US have bigger prizes for winning than Eurotour. In most countries, billiards players are a small community, I bet that Eklent personally knows 90% of all pool players in Albania, there’s no space to hustle, everybody knows everyone. You need to be the best to get sponsors like predator, mezz, meucci etc, and governments usually sponsor only European medalists.
That’s why Europeans are better, USA players do not need to be that much good to make money from pool, it's easier to play small events without big sharks, or gamble with amateurs then to go around the world playing against the best of the best.
I bet that 70-80% of pro pool players from the US couldn't make a living playing pool in Europe

pool players stats...You're crazy man. 90% of the pro players in the US can't make a living playing pool HERE...forget about Europe.

Scott Lee
2019 PBIA Instructor of the Year
Director, SPF National Pool School Tour

 

[garczar]

Well that was scary! Zielinski’s kind of a beast! Was he unconscious during that match, or does he always play that strong?

Natural feel player. He takes one look at the lay-out and if its runnable, stand back. This kid runs-out like water going downhill. Fun to watch.

 

[pool players stats]

pool players stats...You're crazy man. 90% of the pro players in the US can't make a living playing pool HERE...forget about Europe.

Scott Lee
2019 PBIA Instructor of the Year
Director, SPF National Pool School Tour

then they are not pro (pro = play pool full time)
I mean from that players making money from pool in US, probably 80% of them wouldnt make it in Europe