What is a Shortstop?

Hey 'cudas,

Thanks for reminding me of my poor spelling! Damn, I wish we had a spell checker at AZ. Anyway, Larry saved me several times from fates nearly worse than death. I'm proud to call him a friend even though I've not seen him in years. He returned to Rochester for many years to go fishing with Pat Howey and sometimes Captain Hook. The cancer has taken some toll on him.

People also should remember that he was a driving force behind the original "Busch" pool league concept. The APA is successful in part because of his vision. He was the epitomy of a "road player". When he travelled with the "Captain", who was the worse of the two evils? ;)
 
cueman said:
That would pretty much fit the definition I left in my earlier post.
" #7 Yesterday, 11:39 PM
cueman
Registered User Join Date: Jun 2004
Posts: 113
vCash: 500

A shortstop is a player that plays lower pro level pretty often, but is not good enough to beat the real pros very often. He is the guy that is usually barred from almost all local tournaments, but can barely cash in the larger Open tournaments. Pretty bad spot to be stuck in.

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Last edited by cueman : Yesterday at 11:47 PM. "
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Hey Cueman,

Actually, I think both of our descriptions are different but have similarities. The "shortstop" I was referring to is more of a gambler than tourney player.


Eric
 
hemicudas said:
Larry, the original "Iceman" Hubbart, yea, it ends in a T but who's counting, didn't have to tell me about the mirror, Kid. I allready knew I was a "Shortstop" and he, at the time, was the only tripple crown winner, world 8 ball, world 9 ball and world 14-1 in the same year, in pool history. It's a shame so many people have never heard the name, Larry Hubbart. He won enough tournaments to be in the HOF. Playing all games, he was probably the most feared player in the country for years.

Thanks for reminding folks of this world beater, Cardiac Kid.
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Gosh, Hemicudas, it's nice to finally have a different Larry to consider on the forum.

I saw Larry Hubbart play many times, but most of it was when he was past his prime. In what years did he play his best pool and who were his chief rivals?
 
cardiac kid said:
Hey 'cudas,

Thanks for reminding me of my poor spelling! Damn, I wish we had a spell checker at AZ. Anyway, Larry saved me several times from fates nearly worse than death. I'm proud to call him a friend even though I've not seen him in years. He returned to Rochester for many years to go fishing with Pat Howey and sometimes Captain Hook. The cancer has taken some toll on him.

People also should remember that he was a driving force behind the original "Busch" pool league concept. The APA is successful in part because of his vision. He was the epitomy of a "road player". When he travelled with the "Captain", who was the worse of the two evils? ;)
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You got it Kid. Larry and Terry Bell started the APA. I watched Louie Roberts go through the 3 stake horses he brought with him from St. Louis and 3 more from Memphis, trying to beat Larry Hubbart there. Louie had no prayer of beating Larry. For SJM, this happened in 1975. 1974-1979 was the era Larry played in the top 5 in the world. Like Cardiac Kid said, Larry and Mike Segal ran the roads together. You could take your pick and pick the game and still couldn't win.

P.S. Also for SJM, Buddy Hall, Mike Segal, Miz, Hopkins, etc. The only exception was, Keith McCready on the bar table. Absolutely no one would play Keith even on the bar box.

Photo of Terry Bell and Larry Hubbart. Larry is wearing the red shirt.
 
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hemicudas said:
Larry, the original "Iceman" Hubbart, yea, it ends in a T but who's counting, didn't have to tell me about the mirror, Kid. I allready knew I was a "Shortstop" and he, at the time, was the only tripple crown winner, world 8 ball, world 9 ball and world 14-1 in the same year, in pool history. It's a shame so many people have never heard the name, Larry Hubbart. He won enough tournaments to be in the HOF. Playing all games, he was probably the most feared player in the country for years.

Thanks for reminding folks of this world beater, Cardiac Kid.
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The first and only time I ever got to see Larry Hubbart play was in the Southern Open at the Greenway back in '78. He didn't win the tourney, but he didn't go home broke, not by a long shot. Fantastic Player.

Lunchmoney
 
hemicudas said:
With very few exceptions, APA 7 speed is a "SHORTSTOP".
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I'd have to disagree on that one. Most 7's I know around here wouldn't qualify as a shortstop. Maybe there is a lot more sandbagging in your area and 7's are shortstops.
 
catscradle said:
I'd have to disagree on that one. Most 7's I know around here wouldn't qualify as a shortstop. Maybe there is a lot more sandbagging in your area and 7's are shortstops.
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Sandbagging, Cats? No, never in my area, lol. One of the 7s on one of my teams from the Chicago area, just won the Midwest Open 8 ball AND the Windy City Open 8 ball tourneys. Another 7 in my area won 5 out of the first 8 McDermot tour stops in the mid 90s and was the best player in the state of IL, Mike Bandy. Sandbagging 7s? In my area? No way.

These two are exceptions, sure. They aren't true Shortstops, they are true PLAYERS and never should have been allowed in the APA. Most 7s, if they gamble are Shortstops.

I agree with you, in that, many 7s don't even qualify for the term, Shortstop. A shortstop is, as described by others here, a gambler that wins locally but could never finish well in a real tournament with players in it. Someone earlier had said, a shortstop gets all the money, until a player takes it from him. Very good analogy.
 
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Knowing that the late seventies was when Larry Hubbart played his best, I was hopeful of learning and sharing more about Larry when I opened my program from the 1978 World Open 14.1 Championships played in NYC in august '78, which I attended.

It was a PPPA (professional pool players association) event and the field consisted of Ray Martin, Allen Hopkins, Irving Crane, Steve Mizerak, Pete Margo, Pat Fleming, Luther Lassiter, Pete Fusco and others, and all the competitors were listed in the program with pictures and writeups, but Larry Hubbart wasn't there. PPPA was an organization that most, but not all of the top pros joined, so maybe Larry was among those who didn't join up with them.

I've always enjoyed looking at the programs from pool events of yesteryear, and in the one from the 1978 14.1 Championships, I was shocked to see that Jose Parica was in the field. In the writeup on him, it said "he's only been playing pool for 3 years" and also "this is his first trip to the United States." Wow! No less entertaining were the ladies division pictures and writeups of the 19 year old Jean Balukas and the 13 year old Loree Jon Ogonowski (now known as Loree Jon Jones).
 
Hi Hemi & Gremlin,

I guess one of the few benefits of life here in Rochester, were the great billiard players. On any given night during the late seventies and early eighties at Ridge Billiards on East Ridge Road, you might find The Deacon, Captain Hook, Iceman, Ernie Pavone, Gil Finale, Charlie Dirisio, Crazy Jerry and Danny DiLiberto from Buffalo as well as other road guys now going home broke. I guess that is why I sometimes would rather "live" in the past. :)
 
cardiac kid said:
Hi Hemi & Gremlin,

I guess one of the few benefits of life here in Rochester, were the great billiard players. On any given night during the late seventies and early eighties at Ridge Billiards on East Ridge Road, you might find The Deacon, Captain Hook, Iceman, Ernie Pavone, Gil Finale, Charlie Dirisio, Crazy Jerry and Danny DiLiberto from Buffalo as well as other road guys now going home broke. I guess that is why I sometimes would rather "live" in the past. :)
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I hear ya, Kid and concur. You didn't mention the "Miz", Kid. I'm sure he had to make a few too.
 
hemicudas said:
I hear ya, Kid and concur. You didn't mention the "Miz", Kid. I'm sure he had to make a few too.
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Hemi, unfortunately for us, "The Miz" resided four hundred miles away :( . The last time I remember seeing him in Rochester was during the 14.1 Invitational at Classic Billiards on West Ridge Road in '91 or '92. He could barely line up over the table. He must have weighed over three fifty. We very infrequently saw Arthur "Babe" Cranfield as well! One of the current local players was tutored by Babe. He chose writing software instead. Leil "JR" Gay was another frequent visitor to Rochester around that time.
 
sjm said:
I've always enjoyed looking at the programs from pool events of yesteryear, and in the one from the 1978 14.1 Championships, I was shocked to see that Jose Parica was in the field. In the writeup on him, it said "he's only been playing pool for 3 years" and also "this is his first trip to the United States." Wow! No less entertaining were the ladies division pictures and writeups of the 19 year old Jean Balukas and the 13 year old Loree Jon Ogonowski (now known as Loree Jon Jones).
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Got a question for you, sjm -- what was Balukas' high run in that program? I used to have a program from the 1977 14.1 Championships (which I can't find anymore) that listed her high run as something like 18 balls. I assume it improved the next year! :)
 
runmout said:
Got a question for you, sjm -- what was Balukas' high run in that program? I used to have a program from the 1977 14.1 Championships (which I can't find anymore) that listed her high run as something like 18 balls. I assume it improved the next year! :)
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Her high runs were on up there. I know a guy who plays in her room. He said she hadn't played very much in the years after retiring, but after agreeing to play to 100 in straight pool they started. He says he left her an open shot and she ran the 100 balls and hung her stick up without even trying to keep going to see how many she would get before missing. I like that about Jean. She doesn't torture herself with the "what if" thoughts many have about "what if she hadn't retired." What if she had kept running those balls that day. She is just content with what she proved. And that is that she was hands down the greatest woman player ever up to her retiring. And that she can still run a hundred in straight pool even when she hardly plays.
 
cueman said:
Her high runs were on up there. I know a guy who plays in her room. He said she hadn't played very much in the years after retiring, but after agreeing to play to 100 in straight pool they started. He says he left her an open shot and she ran the 100 balls and hung her stick up without even trying to keep going to see how many she would get before missing. I like that about Jean. She doesn't torture herself with the "what if" thoughts many have about "what if she hadn't retired." What if she had kept running those balls that day. She is just content with what she proved. And that is that she was hands down the greatest woman player ever up to her retiring. And that she can still run a hundred in straight pool even when she hardly plays.
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Couldn't agree more, Cueman. Seven US Opens. First at 13 years old and is only 45 now. Taking nothing away from the ladies of today but Jean played as good as she had to. Only turning it up when really challenged.

Don't believe me? Ask, "The Miz", Buddy Hall and Keith McCready, who she beat all in one day in a tournament.

In Robert Byrns' book, Treasury Of Trick Shots, on page 127 he states,

"Downward stroke Rapid-fire hurdling Jean Balukas, who wins the world's women's pool title whenever she wants to and whose high run in straight pool is 134, ..."

I believe, as does Keith McCready, that Jean Balukas was the greatest woman pool player ever.
 
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runmout said:
Got a question for you, sjm -- what was Balukas' high run in that program? I used to have a program from the 1977 14.1 Championships (which I can't find anymore) that listed her high run as something like 18 balls. I assume it improved the next year! :)
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Her high run was listed as 55 in the 1978 World 14.1 Championships program. I must note that the matches were genrally to seventy five back then in the women's division, except for the 100 point final, so chances for long-runs were scarce.
 
hemicudas said:
Couldn't agree more, Cueman. Seven US Opens. First at 13 years old and is only 45 now. Taking nothing away from the ladies of today but Jean played as good as she had to. Only turning it up when really challenged.

Don't believe me? Ask, "The Miz", Buddy Hall and Keith McCready, who she beat all in one day in a tournament.

In Robert Byrns' book, Treasury Of Trick Shots, on page 127 he states,

"Downward stroke Rapid-fire hurdling Jean Balukas, who wins the world's women's pool title whenever she wants to and whose high run in straight pool is 134, ..."

I believe, as does Keith McCready, that Jean Balukas was the greatest woman pool player ever.
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I know Jean very well and see her often, and she has mentioned her 134 ball run. She also indicated that 134 was also Ruth McGuiness' record run. The highest women's straight pool run I know of is 152 by Jeanette Lee in, I believe, October 2002. How do I know about it? She ran them on me! Perhaps as impressively, as the pressure must surely have been greater, Jeanette ran a 124 on Mika Immonen, in 2000. Both of these runs by Jeanette occurred at the Amsterdam Billiard Club on the west side of New York City.

As for Allison vs Karen vs Jean, I can say that I have played against all three, so I do have some insight here. Must agree with you Hemicudas, the best ladies of today, namely Allison and Karen, have nothing on Jean. I suspect that they both play comparably to the way Jean did in nine ball, but I suspect that had they been around in Jean's day, they'd have pushed her to a level at which they could not compete. In straight pool, I doubt they'd have ever attained Jean's level of excellence.

Jean competed successfully against men, but let's not forget that Karen has been successful on the Joss tour competing against elite fields of men. She, too, can play with the big boys, and owns multiple wins over both Mika and Santos in Joss tour play and has won a Joss event and finshed second twice. Allison tends not to compete against the men, but I'm sure she'd do as well if she chose to compete.

Jean's the best ever, but only barely.
 
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Didn't Karen beat Jim Rempe on that tour also several months ago? Not sure, but thought I'd read that somewhere. And Mike Zuglan, too?
 
runmout said:
Didn't Karen beat Jim Rempe on that tour also several months ago? Not sure, but thought I'd read that somewhere. And Mike Zuglan, too?
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Santos and Mika are the two biggest names she has beaten in Joss tour play but she has knocked off many other rock solid men, and I believe, as you say, that Rempe and Zuglan are on her victims list.
 
Allison has also won a Southeast Open event here in Georgia. Jean dropped a few of the men at a tournament here in Atlanta around 1989 if my memory serves me right. Vivian also beat up on some of the top local men in side action here also. So the women can play. Who was best? Considering they played on slower cloth when Jean was ruling I would pick her. But the ladies got rid of her and I predict she will never give any of them the satisfaction of beating her once her game goes down hill. She proved she was the best and all other ladies will always be know as the "is she as good as Jean was". She is getting a bit of revenge now by making them remain in her shadow.
 
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