What is the correct way to shoot this????

BeiberLvr said:
I think a great example of an exception would be Darren Appleton. He uses that punch stroke, and plays all games exceptionally well.
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I don't think he's an exception. It makes sense that he punches the ball, with his roots being British. If you said that he was a spin player with British training, I would agree that he is an exception.

Efren also plays all games exceptionally well. His roots are from the Philippines where rotation games rule.
 
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SmoothStroke said:
Growing up on old nap cloths that were slower than molasses we played all games such as, 14.1, 3 ball, 6 ball, 9 ball, 1 pocket, pill pool, cribbage, Chicago, 3 cushion and any other game you can think of, never for funsies, always for cash. Everybody had a big stroke, you had to be able to move the cue ball, power draw was power draw, today you can bunt the ball and draw full table.

I had my first 100 ball run at 16 yrs old on my birthday, a 131, using a house cue and a hard as rock champion tip, the table had holes in the cloth and cigarette burns. Looking back I realize I knew nothing of what I was doing.

As the game progressed and table conditions changed so did I. For the most part faster cloth and rails.

I am O.C.D. to a fault. I have studied every player; every style, books, systems until my brain explodes, and then I study it again. I will study after I write this, it might be about fishing but I will study and learn.

From playing many different games I learned to use the entire cue ball. I learned to apply it as needed, a flat hit, use of spin, speed, and stroke required when called upon.

It is not one style or another, as far as I am concerned it's the only style and the best way to play with the cue ball. Anything else and you are cheating yourself. To each their own I guess.

The days of punch players are gone. For every punch player there are 100 flow players. Don't mistake a short backstroke as a punch stroke as many do. Players today worldwide are moving the cue ball around beautifully, using all the strokes.

If a player wants to play a one dimensional game that is all well and good. If teachers want to teach that style that is fine also. I personally think its old news, ancient. Many things I read should be put in the archives in the yesterday's news section.

It's like having a box of tools and using 1 tool, which may not be the right tool for the job; it may get the job done, with a lot of extra and unnecessary work, or could cause more harm than good. Golfers have a variety of clubs, you don't putt with a driver and you don't drive with a putter.

Knowledge and applying that knowledge is power.

I have established players who take lessons on a regular basis; most are B+ and better players, some are beginners

Some are spin players some are punchy players, some are both, and some have no clue yet. I teach them to play inside the cue ball and around the world. They learn to play a complete cue ball.
This is training, we hit hundreds of balls, not a 3 hour session on how to stand, bridge, aim,9 hours of filming the elbow, never to see the student again. We do cover everything from stance, bridges, head, eyes, in out aiming, kicking, banks, safety, 3 cushion etc.etc.etc.

We keep it simple, nothing that is going to fry their brain, pool 101. Not even near the complicated mumbo jumbo I read that's out there. Most of all we have fun, and they love it.

There is more than one way to skin a cat, this is my way, it's very effective and rewarding.

I don't really care what anyone else does or how they do it. This is mine and would not trade this style for anything.
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Uplifting post, thanks! :) And the fun part for some of us is to to try to master them all :p

Chrippa
 
SmoothStroke said:
Growing up on old nap cloths that were slower than molasses we played all games such as, 14.1, 3 ball, 6 ball, 9 ball, 1 pocket, pill pool, cribbage, Chicago, 3 cushion and any other game you can think of, never for funsies, always for cash. Everybody had a big stroke, you had to be able to move the cue ball, power draw was power draw, today you can bunt the ball and draw full table.

I had my first 100 ball run at 16 yrs old on my birthday, a 131, using a house cue and a hard as rock champion tip, the table had holes in the cloth and cigarette burns. Looking back I realize I knew nothing of what I was doing.

As the game progressed and table conditions changed so did I. For the most part faster cloth and rails.

I am O.C.D. to a fault. I have studied every player; every style, books, systems until my brain explodes, and then I study it again. I will study after I write this, it might be about fishing but I will study and learn.

From playing many different games I learned to use the entire cue ball. I learned to apply it as needed, a flat hit, use of spin, speed, and stroke required when called upon.

It is not one style or another, as far as I am concerned it's the only style and the best way to play with the cue ball. Anything else and you are cheating yourself. To each their own I guess.

The days of punch players are gone. For every punch player there are 100 flow players. Don't mistake a short backstroke as a punch stroke as many do. Players today worldwide are moving the cue ball around beautifully, using all the strokes.

If a player wants to play a one dimensional game that is all well and good. If teachers want to teach that style that is fine also. I personally think its old news, ancient. Many things I read should be put in the archives in the yesterday's news section.

It's like having a box of tools and using 1 tool, which may not be the right tool for the job; it may get the job done, with a lot of extra and unnecessary work, or could cause more harm than good. Golfers have a variety of clubs, you don't putt with a driver and you don't drive with a putter.

Knowledge and applying that knowledge is power.

I have established players who take lessons on a regular basis; most are B+ and better players, some are beginners

Some are spin players some are punchy players, some are both, and some have no clue yet. I teach them to play inside the cue ball and around the world. They learn to play a complete cue ball.
This is training, we hit hundreds of balls, not a 3 hour session on how to stand, bridge, aim,9 hours of filming the elbow, never to see the student again. We do cover everything from stance, bridges, head, eyes, in out aiming, kicking, banks, safety, 3 cushion etc.etc.etc.

We keep it simple, nothing that is going to fry their brain, pool 101. Not even near the complicated mumbo jumbo I read that's out there. Most of all we have fun, and they love it.

There is more than one way to skin a cat, this is my way, it's very effective and rewarding.

I don't really care what anyone else does or how they do it. This is mine and would not trade this style for anything.
Click to expand...

I know SmoothStroke very well. He has been a dear friend, mentor and coach to not only myself but many people who are very close to me for many years. His knowledge and experience is world class and has been used to train a world champion (won't say names but undoubtably one of the best female players of all time ). His lessons are not only fun (hilariously fun actually) they are effective and make you want more from yourself and the game. I am very proud to call him a dear friend. Thanks for all you do!!!
 
Bigb'scues said:
I know SmoothStroke very well. He has been a dear friend, mentor and coach to not only myself but many people who are very close to me for many years. His knowledge and experience is world class and has been used to train a world champion (won't say names but undoubtably one of the best female players of all time ). His lessons are not only fun (hilariously fun actually) they are effective and make you want more from yourself and the game. I am very proud to call him a dear friend. Thanks for all you do!!!
Click to expand...

Awwww I am feeling all mushy and stuff.

Thank you for the kind words, that was very nice of you to say.

It's all true; you left out so many other good things, especially the handsome part. "SNICKER"

Just give me 3 -5 seconds and unleash that fury of a stroke you have on the world.

All kidding aside, it means a lot to me to receive such a compliment. (Free Sessions)
Thanks again, I am all goosebumpilly
 
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gregcantrall said:
I remember a story I read, perhaps in a Billiards Digest back in the 1980's.

In the early 1950's, at a straight pool event. A nine ball player kept barking at Willie. Finally Mosconi relented and played the guy nine ball for $50 a game. That was a big chunk of money back then. Willie won the lag and broke and ran racks until the guys backer pulled up. At which point the player says, "How can you pull up? You haven't even seen me shoot." To which the backer replied, "I don't need to see you shoot.":cool:
Click to expand...

It was earlier than the 50's. But I love this story and thanks for sharing it! Here's the tale in dramatized form as the introduction to a fictional winner-take-all between The Mosc and an up-and-comer: The Mosc And The Kid.
 
SmoothStroke said:
Growing up on old nap cloths that were slower than molasses we played all games such as, 14.1, 3 ball, 6 ball, 9 ball, 1 pocket, pill pool, cribbage, Chicago, 3 cushion and any other game you can think of, never for funsies, always for cash. Everybody had a big stroke, you had to be able to move the cue ball, power draw was power draw, today you can bunt the ball and draw full table.

I had my first 100 ball run at 16 yrs old on my birthday, a 131, using a house cue and a hard as rock champion tip, the table had holes in the cloth and cigarette burns. Looking back I realize I knew nothing of what I was doing.

As the game progressed and table conditions changed so did I. For the most part faster cloth and rails.

I am O.C.D. to a fault. I have studied every player; every style, books, systems until my brain explodes, and then I study it again. I will study after I write this, it might be about fishing but I will study and learn.

From playing many different games I learned to use the entire cue ball. I learned to apply it as needed, a flat hit, use of spin, speed, and stroke required when called upon.

It is not one style or another, as far as I am concerned it's the only style and the best way to play with the cue ball. Anything else and you are cheating yourself. To each their own I guess.

The days of punch players are gone. For every punch player there are 100 flow players. Don't mistake a short backstroke as a punch stroke as many do. Players today worldwide are moving the cue ball around beautifully, using all the strokes.

If a player wants to play a one dimensional game that is all well and good. If teachers want to teach that style that is fine also. I personally think its old news, ancient. Many things I read should be put in the archives in the yesterday's news section.

It's like having a box of tools and using 1 tool, which may not be the right tool for the job; it may get the job done, with a lot of extra and unnecessary work, or could cause more harm than good. Golfers have a variety of clubs, you don't putt with a driver and you don't drive with a putter.

Knowledge and applying that knowledge is power.

I have established players who take lessons on a regular basis; most are B+ and better players, some are beginners

Some are spin players some are punchy players, some are both, and some have no clue yet. I teach them to play inside the cue ball and around the world. They learn to play a complete cue ball.
This is training, we hit hundreds of balls, not a 3 hour session on how to stand, bridge, aim,9 hours of filming the elbow, never to see the student again. We do cover everything from stance, bridges, head, eyes, in out aiming, kicking, banks, safety, 3 cushion etc.etc.etc.

We keep it simple, nothing that is going to fry their brain, pool 101. Not even near the complicated mumbo jumbo I read that's out there. Most of all we have fun, and they love it.

There is more than one way to skin a cat, this is my way, it's very effective and rewarding.

I don't really care what anyone else does or how they do it. This is mine and would not trade this style for anything.
Click to expand...

I love this post! Others had commented on another recent thread that there are punchers and spinners...

One thought if I may? And please take it in the kind and respectful spirit in which it is intended. If someone gives a few hours with video and etc. to a student and doesn't meet with them again, it may because they have dramatically improved. As I like to joke around, "I'm not a chiropractor and you won't need to see me three times a week until you die. If we find a good change to your game today..."

Most of those sometimes one-time lesson teachers, including me, also follow-up with students online these days, so no one is really left alone.

Again, I loved your post. Thanks.
 
Chrippa said:
I use a touch of inside, slight below center just to make the contact throw on both balls equal out, cb will travel "dead" in a straight line and the ob has no spin either - clean hit both ways.

Regards

Chrippa
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My curiosity is peaked. If you don't mind telling more, how are you applying the english on these cuts... parallel or pivot through bridge? backhand? twisting the cue across the line (like being a tad left of center ball with your bridge hand then swiveling the cue a bit right of center)? TOI-pop and float the cue ball style?
 
BilliardsAbout said:
My curiosity is peaked. If you don't mind telling more, how are you applying the english on these cuts... parallel or pivot through bridge? backhand? twisting the cue across the line (like being a tad left of center ball with your bridge hand then swiveling the cue a bit right of center)? TOI-pop and float the cue ball style?
Click to expand...

Hi Matt,

I'm sure Chrippa will answer but there is bit of a language issue at times as he speaks Swenglish.:wink:

I'm fairly sure that he was referring to hitting with TOI & under the equator. I'm fairly sure that when he said throw he was speaking about SIT but perhaps is under a misconception of them 'equaling out' for both balls. The intention is to have the slight inside rotation equal the amount of outside rotation that the CB picks up from the collision. So... the CB just drifts with a vertical roll & no outside rotation or spin.

I hope that clarifies what I think he meant. But like Dennis Miller often says, I could be wrong & perhaps he meant something else.

Best,
Rick
 
BilliardsAbout said:
I love this post! Others had commented on another recent thread that there are punchers and spinners...

One thought if I may? And please take it in the kind and respectful spirit in which it is intended. If someone gives a few hours with video and etc. to a student and doesn't meet with them again, it may because they have dramatically improved. As I like to joke around, "I'm not a chiropractor and you won't need to see me three times a week until you die. If we find a good change to your game today..."

Most of those sometimes one-time lesson teachers, including me, also follow-up with students online these days, so no one is really left alone.

Again, I loved your post. Thanks.
Click to expand...

Thank you very much Matt, I learn from you and others on this site. I am never offended and appreciate a civil discussion. I have thick skin.
I hope I didn't insult, offend, or disrespect anyone, it was not my intention.

Video has its place for sure, as do one time lessons. I could have worded my post a little differently; I have a big foot and sometimes a bigger mouth, insert foot.

My approach is a little different. I have had students ask where the video is, I answer, we don't use it now, we use it when you look like a player, not before. I have used it in the early stages, never again.

They had lessons and video was used. I have witnessed these lessons, they paid big money. They see their forearm and elbow out of wack, grip too short, head is twisted, alignment is a mess, etc. They see negatives and dwell on the negative. These students are advertising as recognized instructors.

We begin training and what do you think a large majority of them do right out of the gate, they turn their head, look at their feet, hips, and swing arm, that's what the video told them to focus on. They look like a mess, the video didn't help them it hurt them; they are tight, so mentally wrapped up in the video they can't find the natural or have any idea how to find it. Dwelling on the perfect form and no idea how to get there, but they have video.

I am not saying this is always the case and video doesn't work for some, it's what I have encountered more than once. I will use video as a positive instead of a negative. I am 100% in agreement with visuals, especially positive ones.

During our first training session we are able to get these little problems repaired, they are no longer turning their head, they are feeling it, losing the robotics they started with.
Their fundamentals and mechanics are looking better; they feel good and convey it to me in words and a smile. That is very rewarding to me, especially when you see them feeling it. I work hard on bringing out their natural.
They will say, I see what you mean, I feel it I don't have to see it. When they leave a session like that most times I am penciling them in for weekly or bi-weekly sessions.

I have had many come through the door after one session never to be seen again. These are beginners or players that are looking for the Holy Grail. I have a 15 minute chat before we begin, my first words are, There Is No Holy Grail, this is work, we train hard, prepare to work hard or you are throwing your money away, it's your money to do with as you like.

If they want a one session cram course or particular systems I accommodate them as they are paying for it. I prefer training over one and done but have no problem with one time sessions.

I expect this out of you as you are a reflection upon me, I don't want smoke blown up my butt, and I expect results. I will know in a few strokes how much you practiced.

Sorry for the long rant and thank you for the kind words.
Sincerely: SS
 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^:thumbup2:

Again, A very good post & I like what you say & obviously 'live'.

Best 2 Ya,
Rick

PS If you don't mind me asking, where are you located?

Edit: The page turned. I'm referring to SmoothStroke's last post.
 
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BilliardsAbout said:
My curiosity is peaked. If you don't mind telling more, how are you applying the english on these cuts... parallel or pivot through bridge? backhand? twisting the cue across the line (like being a tad left of center ball with your bridge hand then swiveling the cue a bit right of center)? TOI-pop and float the cue ball style?
Click to expand...

That shot I use Parallel, not thinking of the english I put in only thinking of the dead ball coming out sort of speak. TOI in both ends... It´s a very easy shot to do when you have done it a few times.
You have the stopshot in both ends might describe it good. From there you can have a lot of fun pivot because you are "locked in" at the target. Very effective imo.

I aim to please here so please ask me more if you don´t see it, feel it - but please try it the way you interpret my description and who knows - we might speak the same language :).

Regards

Chrippa

Ps one way to see "a touch to the inside is if you look at the ball in 90 degrees angles, it´s a stopshot in the center, and it´s a stopshot into the angle. remember that you don´t have the cue in perfect level position, the tip is rounded etc.
 
SmoothStroke said:
...........
..............
I have had many come through the door after one session never to be seen again. These are beginners or players that are looking for the Holy Grail. I have a 15 minute chat before we begin, my first words are, There Is No Holy Grail, this is work, we train hard, prepare to work hard or you are throwing your money away, it's your money to do with as you like.

..............

I expect this out of you as you are a reflection upon me, I don't want smoke blown up my butt, and I expect results. I will know in a few strokes how much you practiced.

Sorry for the long rant and thank you for the kind words.
Sincerely: SS
Click to expand...
this part of your post reminded me of an experience a long time ago
in college i studied classical guitar
one week i didnt practice a new piece and was not prepared with my lesson...:o
very quickly my teacher asked me
what did i do the last week?
i told him "i was working on my tone".....;)
he didnt buy it ....:angry:........:D
he could tell from the first measure how much i practiced (he was a great teacher)
sorry for the digression but i had to post this
carry on men and ladies
 
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bbb said:
this part of your post reminded me of an experience a long time ago
in college i studied classical guitar
one week i didnt practice a new piece and was not prepared with my lesson...:o
very quickly my teacher asked me
what did i do the last week?
i told him "i was working on my tone".....;)
he didnt buy it ....:angry:........:D
he could tell from the first measure how much i practiced (he was a great teacher)
sorry for the digression but i had to post this
carry on men and ladies
Click to expand...

Great story. You can't fool a great teacher. I had a music teacher as well who always knew when I didn't practice that week.
 
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One thing that I tell every student, who wishes to get followup instruction with me, is that the first thing I will do is "test" them to see if they actually practiced what I showed them in the first lesson. On several occassions the student had to repeat the first lesson in order to move forward. Sometimes they would say, "Well, I didn't like that particular part of the 'homework'." My response, of course, is "How do you complete a jigsaw puzzle if you leave out 10 pieces?" LOL As mentioned by others, disciplined practice is difficult, challenging, and hard work. Those that practice the process with due diligence will see significant improvement. How long that takes is based on several variables, not the least of which is the student's desire and committment to practice.

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
 
Lol-
these nice stories gave me a good laugh to start my day :thumbup:
Made me immediatley remembering my student and good friend Terje from Norway. I worked with him before over a long time already via internet video conference. much talking etc.

then he came over for a longer visit to stay in my rooms and practice for a week. I remember the first day exactly - wanted to start with him workin on a kicking system- and after his 2nd shot he was told to do i told him immediatley that he would never have done the exersize i gave him to do daily for just 5 minutes :p

His face was PRICELESS :-) and because of his funny face.....i wasn t able to be angry or whatever...lmao!
 
Scott Lee said:
Good to have you posting again Pat! Nice to see you last weekend, even if only briefly! You and I both know that expert players hit center CB at will, and trying to say that they don't is simply ridiculous. All one has to do is look at Mark Wilson's book and it proves it. :thumbup:

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
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There is a big difference in hitting the center of the ball accurately as a pool player (close enough that it does exactly what you want) and hitting the absolute laboratory perfect center, which is probably nearly impossible and irrelevant. I think this difference is where the argument falls. Most of us are pretty comfortable with what qualifies as a center ball hit and know it when we see it. As a pool player I side with Scott. As a technically perfect matter I don't think the point is relevant, we don't play in a lab.

As in golf, pool is a game of misses. As long as your error is within the width of the pocket it is close enough. That's why the pockets are larger than the balls.:)
 
How to shoot the shot

One of my team mates and I disagree on this exact shot all the time. He always uses top right and I always use stun. As others have mentioned it is probably a matter of taste. I go with the likelihood I can hit stun at the speed I need more consistently then I can put the right amount of top and right to balance out and slide down table. That said, he won the Western States Amateur title about ten years ago and that beats any claim I would have to fame. :o
 
bbb said:
this part of your post reminded me of an experience a long time ago
in college i studied classical guitar
one week i didnt practice a new piece and was not prepared with my lesson...:o
very quickly my teacher asked me
what did i do the last week?
i told him "i was working on my tone".....;)
he didnt buy it ....:angry:........:D
he could tell from the first measure how much i practiced (he was a great teacher)
sorry for the digression but i had to post this
carry on men and ladies
Click to expand...

I never pursued musical studies but wish I had. I can't read a lick.
Got my first guitar around 7 yrs old, a big ole hollow body Carlo Robelli.
I can hold my own and then some playing EAB blues progression.

My 5 minutes of fame was one night in a club in Greenwich Village NYC, playing 2 sets with a band called Badfinger. It was accidental how I got there but I loved it.

I incorporate music into my steady players' teachings. Feel good music, music for the soul, inspirational music, get them down to earth, humble.

I know it sounds crazy.
Sincerely: SS
 
skipbales said:
One of my team mates and I disagree on this exact shot all the time. He always uses top right and I always use stun. As others have mentioned it is probably a matter of taste. I go with the likelihood I can hit stun at the speed I need more consistently then I can put the right amount of top and right to balance out and slide down table. That said, he won the Western States Amateur title about ten years ago and that beats any claim I would have to fame. :o
Click to expand...

Great post. There are usually a couple of ways to accomplish the same shot. There are a lot of variables that come into play as a player starts to develop their own style.

Here are just a few:

Location: Climate is a bigger factor than people imagine. Lower vs. higher humidity, for example.

Equipment: Are you playing mostly on well-cared for equipment or on tables that could use an overhaul?

People around you: We are influenced by the players around us, particularly the strong players. We take in their style of play just by watching.

The games that are popular in your area: Snooker, English pool, 3-c, 14.1, rotation games.

What you study: There are many more outlets today to learn than there were years ago, such as YouTube and live streaming. Books are in abundance and everyone has an opinion, such as with message boards like this one.

Pool lessons: A teacher can have a very strong influence on a person's style. It's important for teachers to understand what a players tendencies are and try to help the player rather than try to turn the player into an image of them self.
 
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