What is the right thing to do?

[Hierovision]

I think it would be crazy, silly, stupid, and ignorant to let him know in that situation. In a friendly match I STILL wouldn't tell my opponent because losing the match will let it sink in thoroughly that they need to scan the table before every shot. If I'm in tournament competition I most definitely wouldn't tell my opponent because it gives me the win. It's the same as if they missed the ball completely... it's their mistake and you make them suffer for it on the table just like every other situation where your opponent misses, scratches, miscues, etc.. Be a complete gentleman when you call the foul, but don't help them beat you.

I've done this before in a money match and when he called the foul he was very nice about it. I don't see how that makes him a bad or dishonest person. That makes him sensible, intelligent, competitive and not overly sympathetic. I was an idiot for not scanning the table and I paid the price ($20), which is how it should be.

 

[Da Poet]

I would actually hope my opponent wouldn't tell me so if I went ahead and hit the wrong ball, it would probably help me in the long run to pay more attention. Of course I have hit the wrong color in eight ball a couple times and it never crossed my mind that it was up to my opponent to warn me. It was my fault!

If the balls were near the jar as described, I would probably have conceded in my mind and not have been even looking at the table anyways!


Didn't answer the question did I?

 

[randyg]

Bob,

How about when a referee tells a player how he can hit a shot? I saw this in Vegas at the BCA.

I bet that ref ain't with us any more....randyg

 

[JoeW]

My last comments actually refer to regular play in a hall or among friends and acquantainces. In a truly competitive situation where the intent is to win then it would be silly to say anything. When the game is "serious" then each person is expected to know the rules.

 

[JimS]

OK- It's hill-hill, and your opponent is running the table playing a set of 9 ball. He makes it all the way until just the 8 and 9 ball are left on the table, and they are both hanging in the pocket.

Suddenly, you realize that he doesn't see the 8 ball hanging deep in the jaws. He gets down and lines up the 9 ball, preparing to shoot what he believes is the game winner.

Question- do you stop him, or just wait for him to shoot it in and call a foul?

NO discussion needed. The right thing it to tell him. Everything else is excuses based on believing that winning the game is more important that doing the right thing.

 

[sde]

In 8 ball I will ALWAYS tell my opponent that he is about to shoot one of my balls.

In 3 cushion I will ALWAYS tell my opponent that he is about to shoot the wrong cue ball.

But in 9 ball, because of the nature of the game, I would NEVER say a word and would let him shoot the wrong ball.

Steve

 

[Craig Fales]

What I've done in this type of circumstance is once I see them lining up wrong. I pretend to be busy doing something or that I'm distracted by something. Then after they have shot I wait a second...finish with my fake distraction then act surprised and go, "Hold on a second. Did you just shoot the 5?"

This way the guy is only mad at himself and not mad at you and himself.

Course I only play for money. At least $50 sets so maybe that's why I play harder to win than others here. I will never break any rules however.

That's exactly what I've done in the past in tournaments...if it's a freindly no money game I let 'em do it too and ask them when they're going to shoot the ball they missed...sharpens them up quick...

 

[acedotcom]

One of my teammates stopped me from making a similar mistake a couple weeks ago. We were playing 8-ball and I was getting ready to kick at the 8 when I still had one of my balls left on the table. My opponent said nothing, probably because he couldn't figure out what the hell I was doing. I chalk it up to dementia.

I think under most conditions it's normal to warn a player if he's going after the wrong ball. I've warned opponents many times, and have been warned in return. I'd like to think that the same thing goes even when the match is on the line.

Anyway, if my opponent had got down to two hangers, I probably would've conceded.

 

[Snapshot9]

It is

each person's responsibilty to know the rules they are playing by.

Although I have told people in this situation, more often than not,
I would not tell them in an important tournament or a money game.

What if a friend of your opponent was talking to him when he was shooting a shot he would never miss, but did. Would you say, 'I know you would never miss that shot, so we will put the ball down, and you keep shooting'.

What if your opponent scooped a jump shot and made it, and you could
see that he was going to do it, would you stop him and teach him the
right way to shoot the jump shot? I think not ....WHY, because each player is responsible to know the rules. Yes, very new newbies can be an exception, but normally no.

I have shot the 8 in, only for my opponent to tell me I forgot 1 stripe at the other end. And once, I used the 1 ball as the cue ball. Both times, a foul was called, and rightfully so. It was MY FAULT.

Just the same as someone grabbing the cue ball while it is rolling after making the 9 when it could have scratched, it is a FOUL.

It is the people that modify the rules in some way, or don't adhere to them that cause the problems for the rest of the players, not the ones that play strictly by the rules.

 

[Andrew Manning]

each person's responsibilty to know the rules they are playing by.

What if your opponent scooped a jump shot and made it, and you could
see that he was going to do it, would you stop him and teach him the
right way to shoot the jump shot? I think not ....WHY, because each player is responsible to know the rules. Yes, very new newbies can be an exception, but normally no.

If a player has strategical options he doesn't know about, would you tell him the right shot to shoot?

Shooting the wrong ball in 9-ball or the wrong suit in 8-ball is totally different than both situations above, in my opinion. It's not my responsibility to make sure my opponent executes a stroke in a legal way, nor my responsibility to make sure he knows the rules' impact on how he's going to play a shot, nor to help him with his pool decision-making.

But all those things above are part of pool for me. I wouldn't help him choose the right shot any more than I'd shoot the shot for him, because both things are part of pool. If he's not going to do them right, it's because he's not a good enough pool player.

But recognizing visually which balls are and aren't on the table is not part of pool for me. I don't want to win because my ball-noticing skills are better, I want to win because my pool skills are better! Whether it's my responsibility or not, I'm going to tell my opponent in this case. I consider it a matter of sportsmanship.

Of course if you don't notice that he's going to shoot the wrong ball until it's too late, that's not your fault. It's not your responsibility to be his spotter. But if you do notice, you have to say something. Otherwise you're knowingly making the outcome of the game about something other than whose pool skills are superior. If you're going to play like that, what's the point in playing? I guess for some the point is money. But for me, the point is playing the game well, and playing the game right.

-Andrew

 

[AZE]

If you're really playing for something - then why would you tell them? You don't see professional boxers telling each other "Hey, you need to guard your jaw, I'm coming in for a punch if you keep your hands down like that". If they don't pay attention to the table, then that's just part of their game, it's not your job to make them a better player while you're competing against them.

If I'm playing a friend, or playing for cheap - then I'd probably let them know. But in any real competitive environment - they'd better pay attention if they want to beat me.

 

[PROG8R]

try not to laugh as you are taking the $$$$.

 

[JoeyA]

I think its all about you. Do you want to be known as the guy who wants his best game or do you want to be known as the guy who wants his money or the win? Over time, The way you handle these "ethical" decisions tells the world about you. Decisions like this are made again and again and like your stroke become automatic as you practice them.

I guess it partially depends on why you play. In Golf and pool it is a social game with physical competition and I much prefer his best game. I prefer to play with others who see it the same way. I "help" in any way I can that is "legal" and then beat you anyway if my game is better than yours. Some people are strict when it comes to rules, some are loose, some use them to every advantage, some to make the game better. Learning how the other guys plays by the rules tells me a lot about him.

Psychs are known for creating these crazy tests that tell much about another person and this would be a good psych test to determine the type of person with whom I am in competition. There is no "right" answer only your preferred answer. To some extent, your answer to questions like this may tell you about you and you may learn somethings about yourself that you did or did not know.

One of the guys I play with would never tell me aout the 8-ball hanger. He also racks a little loose, and he takes advantage whenever he can in other ways. That is OK with me as I know who I am playing with and would have to watch him like a hawk if money were involved -- with him money is never involved and he still asks why I won't put a little on a friendly game with him as I do with others. I woud rather not get serious as I would probably wind up angry though I am the better player. Little decisions we make at every turn add up over time.

I think that you could in fact use this as a "test." Pretend to shoot the 9-Ball for a minute or so and see what the other guy says. Then back up and say, "oops, I better shoot the 8-ball first." You will learn something about the other guy! Good tools are where you find them, use as needed.

--------------------------
Joe, I knew if I read some of your posts about pool we would find some common ground.

Your answer is the truest answer of all of the responses in this thread at least as far as I'm concerned.

There is no right answer, just your own personal, preferred answer.

A person who makes the decision to alert their opponent tells the the world what their values are and likewise the person who keeps quiet sends the same message.

Since I gamble quite frequently at pool, and because I value winning money it is harder for me to notify my opponent but I do and will continue to do so. If he is a low life piece of snake dung, it is even harder for me to give them the signal but there are probably one or two that I would probably be sick for a week after telling them. For decent people I have no problem telling them. For strangers, I give them the benefit of the doubt for being decent until they show me otherwise. But I have to be honest, while I am a slow to anger person, I could just as easily keep my mouth shut playing against an opponent who has previously shown that they are snake dung. That old eye-for-an-eye thing, you know.

Actually a similar situation happened to me. I was in the finals of a monthly tournament with peers and friends and my final run of 4 balls lay before me and on the very next table to me, a guy was bouncing the cue ball by hand into the rail, making the cue ball make loud noises as it hit the rail then the slate, OVER AND OVER AND OVER. I stopped to wait for the lunatic to see that his repetitive slamming and bouncing of the cue ball was distracting me and once he ceased I got back down on the relatively easy out and with careful deliberation and in a very non rushed manner I shot in the wrong ball. My opponent expressed sadness and said "Sorry, but you fouled". I gritted my teeth and said, "I got what I expected" (which is nothing) , because that is the way I play pool. I expect no quarter from anyone on the field of green, but if my opponent shows me that he values to see my best game it makes the journey even more pleasurable.

My situation was a little different than the original poster but similar enough to make a comparison. Sure, the yahoo that was slamming and bouncing the cue ball on the next table should have been escorted to another part of the pool room but it was my fault for not shooting the correct ball and I take full responsibility for it.

In my particular case, I got exactly what I expected which was nothing and that is just something you just have to accept.

Not everyone is going to "prefer" to notify their opponent and that is their right.

JoeyA

 

[Aaron_S]

I totally subscribe to the whole "do unto others..." thing, which is exactly why I don't tell my opponent. If I shoot the wrong ball in a match, then I deserve to give up bih, and it's not going to make me feel very good about winning if I only do so because my opponent tells me I'm getting ready to screw up. I'd rather lose the game than have my opponent save me from what would have been colossal mental meltdown.

To me, there is no question of ethics involved in this situation. It's a very straightforward case of knowing that your opponent is getting ready to make a mistake, and it happens frequently in many games. It's no different from any other time when you're watching your opponent prepare to shoot a shot that you know is not going to turn out good for him; maybe he's trying to trying squeeze whitey through a space that, from your perspective, is clearly too small, or maybe he's less experienced at bank shots and he's getting ready to fire at a bank that you know has a dead kiss in it, or what if he's getting ready to juice the cb, but from your seat you can clearly see a big shiny spot on his tip, which tells you that he's in imminent danger of miscuing. Do you warn him in those cases as well? If so, then either he should be paying you for lessons, or his parents should be paying you for babysitting.

Obviously, it depends heavily on the game. If we're talking $5 nine-ball amongst friends or a league match or something, then yeah, I'll probably tell him. But in a tournament or money match, he's on his own; that's why pool is called an "individual" sport.

This also reminds me of a situation I heard of recently in a Golf tournament. Mark Wilson (not the pool player) had just hit his shot, and one of the other players in his group was talking with his caddy about which club to use. The other player's caddy stated that Mark had hit x club, so maybe he should hit y club. Mark's caddy, overhearing the conversation, interjected, stating that Mark's x club was a different degree than standard, and that they should adjust their club-selection accordingly. Mark, being a true sportsman, called a foul on himself, because it is apparently illegal for one golfer to advise another in a golf tournament. He suffered a two-stroke penalty, and his caddy was literally in tears after the round was over. Happily, he went on to win the tournament. If you, like myself, consider golf to be the ultimate gentleman's sport, then you should find this scenario to be quite interesting. I view the "opp. shooting the wrong ball" scenario exactly the same way. Is it fair to the other participants in the tournament if you help your opponent beat you? I think not.

As always, JMHO
Aaron

 

[justnum]

Kiss and Run

 

[JoeyA]

I totally subscribe to the whole "do unto others..." thing, which is exactly why I don't tell my opponent. If I shoot the wrong ball in a match, then I deserve to give up bih, and it's not going to make me feel very good about winning if I only do so because my opponent tells me I'm getting ready to screw up. I'd rather lose the game than have my opponent save me from what would have been colossal mental meltdown.

To me, there is no question of ethics involved in this situation. It's a very straightforward case of knowing that your opponent is getting ready to make a mistake, and it happens frequently in many games. It's no different from any other time when you're watching your opponent prepare to shoot a shot that you know is not going to turn out good for him; maybe he's trying to trying squeeze whitey through a space that, from your perspective, is clearly too small, or maybe he's less experienced at bank shots and he's getting ready to fire at a bank that you know has a dead kiss in it, or what if he's getting ready to juice the cb, but from your seat you can clearly see a big shiny spot on his tip, which tells you that he's in imminent danger of miscuing. Do you warn him in those cases as well? If so, then either he should be paying you for lessons, or his parents should be paying you for babysitting.

Obviously, it depends heavily on the game. If we're talking $5 nine-ball amongst friends or a league match or something, then yeah, I'll probably tell him. But in a tournament or money match, he's on his own; that's why pool is called an "individual" sport.

This also reminds me of a situation I heard of recently in a Golf tournament. Mark Wilson (not the pool player) had just hit his shot, and one of the other players in his group was talking with his caddy about which club to use. The other player's caddy stated that Mark had hit x club, so maybe he should hit y club. Mark's caddy, overhearing the conversation, interjected, stating that Mark's x club was a different degree than standard, and that they should adjust their club-selection accordingly. Mark, being a true sportsman, called a foul on himself, because it is apparently illegal for one golfer to advise another in a golf tournament. He suffered a two-stroke penalty, and his caddy was literally in tears after the round was over. Happily, he went on to win the tournament. If you, like myself, consider golf to be the ultimate gentleman's sport, then you should find this scenario to be quite interesting. I view the "opp. shooting the wrong ball" scenario exactly the same way. Is it fair to the other participants in the tournament if you help your opponent beat you? I think not.

As always, JMHO
Aaron

Very nice and unique perspective you have Aaron but I think most of your examples that you gave have to do with your opponent's skill level and ability to execute a shot. Especially in 9 ball, a decision to accidentally shoot a ball out of sequence has nothing to do with one's ability to execute.

However, I enjoyed your perspective on the golden rule as it applies to this thread & you as well as the Mark Wilson caddy's faux pas.

Thanks,
JoeyA

 

[Aaron_S]

Very nice and unique perspective you have Aaron but I think most of your examples that you gave have to do with your opponent's skill level and ability to execute a shot. Especially in 9 ball, a decision to accidentally shoot a ball out of sequence has nothing to do with one's ability to execute.

However, I enjoyed your perspective on the golden rule as it applies to this thread & you as well as the Mark Wilson caddy's faux pas.

Thanks,
JoeyA

Thank you Joey, and fwiw I find myself concurring with most everything you say in your posts. On this one, though, I would have to disagree, because I personally consider the mental aspects of the game to be a huge factor in determining a player's skill level. We always talk about how much of this game is mental, so I certainly don't think you count that portion out when evaluating a player's skill level. Execution, while certainly important, is only half the battle IMO, and I actually thought that my examples (forgetting to chalk, mis-calculating an angle) were much more indicative of mental errors than errors in execution. I guess it kind of depends on your definition of execution, however. To me, good execution is simply delivering the cb to the desired spot with the desired speed and spin; I consider all other mistakes to be mental ones.

I would lump shooting the wrong ball in with other judgment errors like forgetting to leave yourself the proper angle to get to the next ball; you executed exactly what you intended, but your plan was flawed.

Have a good one,
Aaron

 

[Bob Jewett]

Bob, How about when a referee tells a player how he can hit a shot? ...

The opponent should ask for a time out and then ask for the head referee to replace the ref (and explain why).

It's hard to find good help.

 

[JoeyA]

Thank you Joey, and fwiw I find myself concurring with most everything you say in your posts. On this one, though, I would have to disagree, because I personally consider the mental aspects of the game to be a huge factor in determining a player's skill level. We always talk about how much of this game is mental, so I certainly don't think you count that portion out when evaluating a player's skill level. Execution, while certainly important, is only half the battle IMO, and I actually thought that my examples (forgetting to chalk, mis-calculating an angle) were much more indicative of mental errors than errors in execution. I guess it kind of depends on your definition of execution, however. To me, good execution is simply delivering the cb to the desired spot with the desired speed and spin; I consider all other mistakes to be mental ones.

I would lump shooting the wrong ball in with other judgment errors like forgetting to leave yourself the proper angle to get to the next ball; you executed exactly what you intended, but your plan was flawed.

Have a good one,
Aaron

Aaron, I think we will have to agree to disagree on this one.

Also, I can't see lumping "shooting the wrong ball" in with ANY judgment errors. I don't know what it is but it's not a judgment error.

Maybe it's just a complete brain cramp but it has nothing to do with skill or judgment. Looking for the right set of words to describe what it truly is?

But for now I'm going to quit beating this dead horse of a thread.
Now everybody say THANK YOU!
JoeyA (going back to work)

 

[JoeW]

We agree JoeyA, what comes around, goes around and it applies to everyone and everything. BTW its good to see that the POWs and MIAs are still in our thoughts too