What is wrong with pool having a seedy image?

[Rasta]

Thanks, everybody, for your responses.

Your image is exotic, sinister and magnetic and while I like it and enjoy living on the fringes of this picture it is not good for the industry as a whole. Corporate America has to be willing to put up their BIG BUCKS in advertising fees and I don't see them doing that with this image.

TV advertising dollars is what is needed to bring pool into its own. Hell, Corporate America has even been scared of putting their advertising dollars behind a show with a little gay girl in it so until the image changes and it is a-changin (see WPBA) don't expect the advertising dollars of CA to get behind pool.

Maybe we need a little more Efren Reyes, Corey Deuel, Rodney Morris, Earl Strickland, Dennis Orcullo and a little YANG type movie characters thrown in. The days of trying to woo the advertising dollars using deceit (hustling) as the main story line are over, IMHO. It will have to be about excellence and prestiege to get CA on board.
JoeyA

Why is it important to get Corporate America onboard? I fear that getting CA onboard will do more harm than good. For example, nine ball is great for television, because it is fast paced, and has a larger element of luck than other pool games. However, IMO it rates just slightly above cut throat in game quality and challenge. It simply doesn't require the concentration or strategy of other games like one pocket or straight pool, or even eight ball (to a lesser extent). It's like the quality of pool was sold out in order to appeal to television audiences with short attention spans.

I suspect that if pool ever does break into the big time, with big corporate sponsors, and prime time television coverage, there will be a lot of players wishing to return to the good old days of pool, before Corporate America got its hands on the game.

Good Rolls,
Rasta

 

[TATE]

Why do so many people want to see pool become mainstream and popular? What is wrong with pool having a seedy image? Personally, I don't mind the seedy image, and am not sure I would like it as much if it were "popular."

Now I understand the benefits of popularity for the industry, but for the average player, I just don't see it. Life has taught me that popularity is often not what it is cracked up to be.

What are your thoughts?

Good Rolls,
Rasta

Pool is the great escape. There is no one "image". I don't want pool to change. There are bars, family rooms, game rooms, bowling alleys, sports bars, and high end rooms.

I hate to say it, but coming from the boring, lily-white cookie cutter suburbs, the seedy image of pool was an attraction to me. Just like riding a motorcycle was. All kinds of petty hoods and con artists hung around the rooms I frequented. I was surprised to find out that pool rooms do have their own code of ethics and some players were the equivalent of highly skilled athletes in other endeavors. Most of them were characters and turned out to be pretty much harmless. A lot are still my good friends. It was fun.

Let's face it, compared to todays drug-running street gangs and taggers, pool is HARMLESS and helps take kids off the streets.

Chris

Ps. I would like to add that pool was a rich man's game 100 years ago. The Hearst Castle has a magnificent biliard room and so do many of the prominent palaces, chateau's and castles of Europe. When I travel, there are many hotels that have library-style bars with pool tables, and they are always a popular place.

 

[DaveK]

The biggest problem I see with pool having a seedy image is that it will make parents less likely to support their child playing pool. A sport or game has a difficult time becoming mainstream if youth are excluded or discouraged from playing. The greats in many sports / games started young and began earning their reputations early in life. We like to watch our heros develop, and there is much less opportunity for that in a sport that discourages youth from playing.

All this 'gansta' and gunfighting background may seem fascinating to some, but lawlessness, indisciminate violence, and shooting people dead as a dispute resolution mechanism are not things I would want attached to any sport or game that wants respect outside the prisons walls.

Dave, remembers when women and under-16's were not allowed in pool halls, talk about discouraging play

 

[sjm]

.............The biggest problem I see with pool having a seedy image is that it will make parents less likely to support their child playing pool. A sport or game has a difficult time becoming mainstream if youth are excluded or discouraged from playing...........

Bravo, Dave, for hitting the nail on the head.

 

[whitewolf]

Why do so many people want to see pool become mainstream and popular? What is wrong with pool having a seedy image? Personally, I don't mind the seedy image, and am not sure I would like it as much if it were "popular."

Now I understand the benefits of popularity for the industry, but for the average player, I just don't see it. Life has taught me that popularity is often not what it is cracked up to be.

What are your thoughts?

Good Rolls,
Rasta

I completely agree.

 

[JoeyA]

Taiwanese and Mainland China view on pool

The question I have, and maybe the international AZBers can fill us yankees in, is whether pool has a seedy image in their country? Some of the things I hear going on in Taiwan, with huge new pool rooms everywhere in the cities, lead me to believe pool over there is viewed as hip and an active lifestyle past time. The fact that pool can be broadcast in primetime live on the Asian ESPN tells me something different is going on over there than here.

This is a good question uwate. Perhaps pool became popular in Taiwan at the right time. I do know from reading some Chinese publications that mainland China is working hard to narrow the gap between their players and Taiwanese players. Taiwan admits this and encourages it. I like that kind of attitude.

Hopefully we can get some people who live in Taiwan, Hong Kong, and mainland China to belly-up to this discussion. I would love to hear their viewpoint. FWIW, mainland Chinese seem extremely reserved in most judgmental questions about politics, religion and just about everything else. Big brother watching I guess is the problem but every now and then they will let it all hang out.
JoeyA

 

[MrLucky]

Most serious players

Desire more like minded folks to share their hobby with ! Do not want to be perceived as a hustler / low life just because they carry their Cue Case in the car or street ! Would like to see more televised games and sponsor support for the Pro's of our game!

None of these things will change without broader awareness and positive media coverage !
it's simple as that

 

[xidica]

Sometimes I enjoy the fact that people think I'm a "hustler" or just kinda look at me like a shady character just because I play semi decent.

I don't lose any sleep at night that's for sure.

 

[Catahula]

Careful what you wish for...

Improving the sport's image benefits who exactly?
I certainly see where it would benefit the professional. That I have no objection with.
After that, the only entity I seeing truly benefiting from pool (billiards) becoming more mainstream are the associated industries (and I do not mean the custom cue makers...there is always a audience for an craftsman/artisan). I have yet to see anything become mainstream that did not result in somehow diminishing its initial appeal.
Mass marketing is the bottom line here. Mass marketing, for those who have not figured it out, means marketing to lowest common denominator.
It usually means longer lines, more questionable junk marketed to the growing audience, and invariably, higher costs to me.
I have seen pool clean, wholesome, and proper. I have seen it "seedier" side as well. Personally I found the seedier side a lot more interesting , the characters a lot more entertaining and the lessons I learned (good and bad) there priceless.
Be very careful what you wish for.

 

[justnum]

After I discussed my desire to play pool. The person I consulted was concerned that the pool hall may house prostitution and drugs.

 

[Fleece3]

Dark rooms with big ornate heavy pieces of furnature, mahogany panelling on the walls. Guys in rumpled business suits smoking cigars, drinking straight whiskey, sitting in high chairs, stone faced watching the men work the green felt......A sort of gangsteresque, 50's, old boys club with men gambling whlie they should be out in the real world, in the sunlight making an "honest" living....This is the image of pool swimming around in my mind... Guys looking like Edward G. Robinson sweating the action, an old guy in a visor with sleeve garters, keeping score on the hanging beads....What's wrong with this picture??? It has a certaqin mystique about it, out in the open with it's seedy underbelly exposed proudly for all to see, and men to admire.....That is pocket billiards....

McCue Banger McCue

Nice image..let's add to it. Your daugther tells you, "me and a couple of friends are going to hang out at the pool hall tonight".

How does it look now?

 

[Fleece3]

Thanks, everybody, for your responses.

Why is it important to get Corporate America onboard? I fear that getting CA onboard will do more harm than good.

For pool PLAYERS to really make the dollars that they deserve, prize money has to get substancially larger. And it can NOT come from larger entry fees or admission prices. It HAS to come from larger sponsorship (Corporate America) When you see a 4 day golf event w/ a 5 million dollar payout, where do you think the money comes from. Btw, what was the payout for our 4 day event (US Open)

 

[justnum]

Corporate sponsorship they have, a diversified marketing outlet billiards does not have. However that is only because their marketing venue his extremely limited.
Hasn't someone already discussed this technique.

What are they going to sell pool cues to 12 year olds, or hotel resort packages at a lovely golf course resort. Had billiards been like computers where the idea is to get one in every home took about a decade. However the potential in a billiard table is not close to a computer.

Billiards will continue to bleed unless some innovations occur. And those thongs for sale at the derby are not the innovations I am talking about.

I dont know things I could use while im at a pool room is starting to develop. The at home training devices is coming around. But nothing that is a real must have besides the usual chalks and tips.

For me personally itd be readings like Jude Rosenstock keeps posting for free. Things to like that to keep my game sharp and developing. Lipsky seems to be working hard on that 14.1 front, that kinda of stuff keeps me motivated but does not attract new players(??).

Im not too sure of the effects of the bikini clad icon on billiards but I don't think it really caught on, maybe thats pessimistic.

The sport is a real people thing when I first showed up at a pool league the retirees were real receptive and instructional without being preachy. As weird as that experience was I stuck around.

But I knew ahead of time Id be going into a pool room.

 

[rlw]

Why do so many people want to see pool become mainstream and popular? What is wrong with pool having a seedy image? Personally, I don't mind the seedy image, and am not sure I would like it as much if it were "popular."

Now I understand the benefits of popularity for the industry, but for the average player, I just don't see it. Life has taught me that popularity is often not what it is cracked up to be.

What are your thoughts?

Good Rolls,
Rasta

popularity and a good image are two different things. when I go to the billiard room I don't want to be surrounded by thug's, thieves, drug dealers and bum's.

when I go to the restroom I don't worry that my cue's will walk out the door and not come back.

I know that I don't want to be around the lowest forms of human life!!!

 

[Fleece3]

Dark rooms with big ornate heavy pieces of furnature, mahogany panelling on the walls. Guys in rumpled business suits smoking cigars, drinking straight whiskey, sitting in high chairs, stone faced watching the men work the green felt......A sort of gangsteresque, 50's, old boys club with men gambling whlie they should be out in the real world, in the sunlight making an "honest" living....This is the image of pool swimming around in my mind... Guys looking like Edward G. Robinson sweating the action, an old guy in a visor with sleeve garters, keeping score on the hanging beads....What's wrong with this picture??? It has a certaqin mystique about it, out in the open with it's seedy underbelly exposed proudly for all to see, and men to admire.....That is pocket billiards....

McCue Banger McCue

The main thing "WRONG" (to use your word) with this image, is that it is representive of a time that has past. With that image of pool, it would only show that pool, both as a sport and a business, has an inability to evolve. Hell, you could have thrown in "With 'ole blue eyes' crooning from the 8 track player"

 

[BlackDragon]

Tennis has seeds. Farmers have seeds. The US Open has seeded players. A seedy image but then you don't want any seeds when youre rolling. So

 

[vagabond]

they are NOT limitted to pool halls.They are every where including the place u go to worship on sundays.

 

[whiteoak]

The biggest problem I see with pool having a seedy image is that it will make parents less likely to support their child playing pool. A sport or game has a difficult time becoming mainstream if youth are excluded or discouraged from playing. The greats in many sports / games started young and began earning their reputations early in life. We like to watch our heros develop, and there is much less opportunity for that in a sport that discourages youth from playing.

All this 'gansta' and gunfighting background may seem fascinating to some, but lawlessness, indisciminate violence, and shooting people dead as a dispute resolution mechanism are not things I would want attached to any sport or game that wants respect outside the prisons walls.

Dave, remembers when women and under-16's were not allowed in pool halls, talk about discouraging play

What Dave said!!!

 

[justnum]

like oak said!

 

[GADawg]

Nothing is wrong will pool having a "seedy" image if you don't want:

1. Bigger sponsor payments and tournament prizes for the players
2. Youth leagues formed to encourage the growth of pool as a mainstram activity
3. Public financial support for players attending international tournaments
4. Mainstream acceptance of pool rooms from families and couples going to pool rooms as a social activity, providing more business and profit for room owners.
5. A turn-around in the decline of American pool players

If you go to a pool room here in China, more than half of the tables will be occupied by male/female couples on a "date" playing pool. They don't drink any alcohol, don't gamble, and are just playing for the fun of the game. On the weekends you will have to wait to get a table in rooms with 20-40 tables.

Young players are everywhere learning the game seriously. In the Shanghai 8 ball Open a couple months ago, I watched an early round match between and 11 year old boy and Chao Fong Pang.