What is your DEFINITION of a Custom Cue?

[bruin70]

I though you were talking about the words custom vs. production. Throwing the word cue in the mix only confuses people.,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,
You can all disagree, but unless you are manufacturers and have different experience, then it's a tough opinion to back up.

Fred

you're ranting against the wrong people, fred. "custom cues" is a phrase used in varying circumstances by the CUEMAKERS themselves. and that's where the confusion BEGINS. as for everything else, leave it to whatever government agency wants to control labeling issues, as they have with food and consumer goods.

to cue buyers, it is good enough to say a cue is custom if it is designed and speced indivisually. there's no need for further elaboration of the term "production" because it only makes things MORE confusing.

 

[Mungtor]

Custom cue: cue ordered by a customer from the maker.
Production cue: cue manufacturer produced multiple copies of the same cue for sale.
Spec cue: cue maker makes a cue to his specifications for later sale.
Limited production cue: Same as production but made in much smaller numbers.

My cue is a really simple design. Cocobolo with silver rings and a black wrap. I talked with Thierry because I wanted it 60" long instead of 58", but really that's about it. I trusted him to know what else would make it work. If you go here:

http://www.layanicues.com/en/naturalcoll.htm

it looks exactly like 1028. (the grain on mine is much nicer than the one in the pic)

So, is it custom? If I had Thierry make the same basic style out of Desert Ironwood (when I get the $$$), is that custom because he doesn't list Ironwood as wood he normally uses?

I always found this an interesting question, along with the definitions of "Hand Made" and "Machine Made". Every cuemaker uses machines (that I know of), but I tend to think of "Machine Made" as involving some form of assembly line or heavy automation. Is CNC is still hand made if one maker programmed the machine and chucked up the blank?

OK, I'll stop rambling.

 

[Michael-Hoang]

I though you were talking about the words custom vs. production. Throwing the word cue in the mix only confuses people.

Nothing in the manufacturing world suggests this. The words are not mutually exclusive.

I gave this example in the past. I ordered 1,000 custom temporary tattoos. It wasn't their design. It was mine. The order was custom. It wasn't off the shelf. It was completely under my design. They produced (yes, that's "production") my custom order. I've ordered these custom tattoos every year for the past several years. It's now in their system, though nobody can order them but me. Every year, it's a production of custom tattoos.

There are home builders all across the U.S. that build "custom homes," even though every home is similar or exactly the same. But, they are still "custom," even though there may not be a specific customer in mind. They are built on speculation.

Every field of commercial manufacturing has a decent understanding of the terms custom and production. The only people that I come across that don't understand the terms are pool players. That's the truth.

"Custom," though defined in Webster's has the customer and customer's intentions in mind, it has come to mean in manufacturing "not built upon a standard" or "not of the standard line." It does NOT mean "opposite of mass production." Consider the cars or motorcycle that manufacturers put "Custom" in front of. It is absolutely proper for them to do this. For pool cues, the original "standard" was a one piece house cue. That's why today, any two-piece cue can properly called "custom cue."

IMO, if people want to differentiate, then use real terms like customized, customer-specified, or one off (one-of-a-kind). Custom doesn't mean what you guys think or want to think it means.

You can all disagree, but unless you are manufacturers and have different experience, then it's a tough opinion to back up.

Fred

A reasonably, logically good post.

 

[Fred Agnir]

My "definition" of custom cues fits the definition as given by Mr. Webster!

The two little ladies who write up the Webster definitions often do not look at industry standards for their definitions. Since cue making is part of the industry of manufacturing, the manufacturing standards should take precedence, shouldn't it?

In manufacturing, the opposite of custom is "standard" or "common." The opposite of "production" would be "mock up" or "prototype." That's what I mean that they're not opposites. They describe two different aspects of manufacturing. All cue makers produce a product, therefore they are all production.

I can't think of one mass-producer that makes a "common" cue, apart from house cue manufacturers.

Fred

 

[Fred Agnir]

Seems cheap to me, but whatever.

I know what you're saying. The word "custom" has grown to something too mystic, IMO, so my saying "every jointed cue can be called 'custom' " does cheapen it.

I guess I'll have to start using the term "One-off Custom Cue" or "One-of-a-kind Custom Cue".

I think so. To me it makes more sense and helps to not diminish cue makers like Pechauer, Jacoby and Schuler, three shops who certainly pour their hearts and souls into making handcrafted cues, but are often tossed into a muck of "production vs. custom" debate. They're all middle volume producers of custom cues, in my world.

So..there's only one by a particular cuemaker it's a "One-of-a-kind Custom". If there were a limited number of them it's a "Limited Production Cue". If there were lots of them made then it's a "General availability Production Cue".

Sure was easier when they were Custom Cues and Production Cues.

LOL!!! BTW, I mistyped earlier. One-off and one-of-a-kind are two related but different animals in case I confused people more . "One-off" is closer to "one-at-a-time." But in either case, I think most people who think "custom cues" are thinking of a "One-of/One-off/specialty" type of cue maker. Again, this is pretty standard in the industry, particularly in machine shops. And I guess I'm just reporting industry standards, rather than reinvent definitions at a whim.

Fred

 

[Fred Agnir]

you're ranting against the wrong people, fred. "custom cues" is a phrase used in varying circumstances by the CUEMAKERS themselves. and that's where the confusion BEGINS.

To me, every cuemaker is within proper industry standards to call their product "custom." So, the only confusion, IMO, are those not familiar with industry standards. That could include cuemakers themselves.

Fred

 

[JimS]

(IMHO) - A Custom Cue Is one that you call a cue maker and tell him the specs & design you want. He tells you the cost and delivery time.

At least that is the way it was way back when - with cue makers like George, Gus (pre-Atalntic City Casinos), & Danny Janes.

If you can call a cue maker and have him ship you 100 cues - They are NOT Custom Cues.

If there is a cue maker selling 50 to 500 cues laid out on a table - They are Not Custom Cues.

Remember - I am an OldHasBeen and I can only say the way it used to be.
I have no knowledge OR interest in THE WAY IT IS NOW.

AND ALL OF THE ABOVE IS JUST - (IMHO).

TY & GL

I like this definition. Custom means made for me. When I sell it, it's no longer a custom.

 

[drivermaker]

I like this definition. Custom means made for me. When I sell it, it's no longer a custom.

Of course it's still a custom and always will be.

It's a "custom cue made originally for OHB" by George Balabushka.

You would just be the owner of a custom cue that was once made for someone else, not you.

 

[jjinfla]

A hand crafted (or CNC now a days) made to your specifications. Jake

 

[Regulator1956]

Custom or Production ??

A hand crafted (or CNC now a days) made to your specifications. Jake

I bought a 1-of-a-kind Auerbach that he made to be sold through a dealer. It was not of my design, but John made it "custom."

So, it's NOT to my specs, but I would call it a custom.

 

[Colin Colenso]

Different Kind of Customized Cue

I just had this set of cues made up with my own design we're doing for a promotion.

Not expensive cues, but look good and all have a Talisman tip so they play pretty well. Note the short cue is a 'Mini Me' version of the set.

If people want a set for their home use...maybe for visitors I could help out.

 

[drivermaker]

I bought a 1-of-a-kind Auerbach that he made to be sold through a dealer. It was not of my design, but John made it "custom."

So, it's NOT to my specs, but I would call it a custom.

You can call it a custom or anything else you want if it makes your weenie woody...but it ain't a custom cue. It's a 1-of-a-kind spec cue by Auerbach and that's it. Not that it's devalued or anything, hell it could be better than what you would have called for. Now you could lie and say that the weight, taper, joint type, and everything else was done exactly the way you wanted...who would know except you in your own heart?

There are a number of cues that Jerry McWorter puts out like that which are all of his own design and specs that are just awesome and sure wouldn't bother me to say...yeh, I have a McWorter cue (and not even throw in the word custom) who gives a damn?! It's just a McWorter one of a kind cue.

 

[drivermaker]

didnt think jerry did very many "one of a kinds"

You might be right about that....I guess they're "limited production" cues by McWorter then. OR...McWorter "Limited Line of Cues". Or..."custom-limited line of cues" by McWorter, if he makes it to your specs. Does that make more sense now?

 

[HittMan]

differentiation

OK...there have been a lot of opinions aired here over an apparently good question. So...let's work on some definind terms, I'll even add a few of my own:

#'s built of the same design
#'s built with the same specifications
#'s built in the same run (batch size between tooling changes)
#'s built annually/monthly/periodically
origin of specification (standard vs specific customer)
origin of design (original artwork vs copied vs pirated vs collaborated)
method of machining (hand vs CNC) say by percentage automated...maybe.
method of building (preassembled parts vs shop built components)
method of material procurement and storage
method/specification of joinery
method/specification of inlay
method and specification of base material
method of weight distribution

From these few points of differentiation, I can easily see where there is room for confusion.

Maybe I look at this differently from most, but it seems to me that time can be the cuemakers worst enemy (kinda like politicians). What I mean is that most begin with the desire to create a useful artform, an expression of themselves. They work to satisfy their personal requirements in the areas of hit, fit, finish, beauty, etc, etc. Not too much later (for most), they work to satisfy unique customers learning how to maintain the quality of their personal requirements within the scope of changing specifications. This might be known as the point of perfection of the craft. This is not to imply perfection in the eye of the customer, but rather perfection in the eye of the maker (where he sets his standard). This is where a cuemaker begins to build his reputation, many of the lesser craftsmen are eliminated or relegated to obscurity here.

Let's call the next phase...perfection of the method. Most cuemakers will tell you it takes X number of years to get their shop setup correctly, meaning adequate tools, devices and contacts to economically perform the work they set out to do. There are many steps in the process that require innovative solutions. Vendors are available for those who cannot or do not want to solve each component. Decisions made to perfect the method imply the quality of the cue. This is where a cuemaker makes his statement about who he is and polishes his reputation to an image.

The next phase might be perfection of the market. At this point some cuemakers will tell you that certain patterns of specifications and design become so prevalent that there is little point in pursuing the fringe...so stay within the bell curve because it's predictible and profitable. Get in the shop and produce, clean up problems, reduce complexity, increase speed. Avoid changes in the routine, carefully plot innovation, stay with what works.. This is where he trades on his image with neutral effect. Decisions made to perfect the market will not imply a better/worse cue simply a standardized cue of perceived quality.

The last phase might be called perfect the cuemaker. This is point at which a cuemakers convinces himself he can mass produce quality cues or that he must automate the design processes to meet the demands of his customers. They hire marketing and efficiency consultants and buy highspeed machinery and/or hire legions of employees to perform the work and make the decisions he so painstakingly labored over in the previous phases. Compromises in joinery, materials, methods and quality control are implicit. At this point, he is trading on his image with negative impact because an informed buyer will reject the hype and recognize the regression.

It is not mandatory to follow these progressive stages but it is unlikely that the result will be different if the path is undertaken. There are many cuemakers who are able to recognize their place and take steps to maintain their desired position or to become masters in their craft by returning to the earlier stages to develop improvements.

Who do you want to buy from and how do you identify what is important to you? What terms do you use? What is hidden/revealed in those terms?
Once again it may just be me, but when I think of a custom cue, I think in terms of the person, whose craftsmanship and judgement I have come to respect. It is difficult for me to accept that some folks use this term so loosely....that a cue assembled from purchased parts rather than built (or machine controlled rather than hand performed) would engender such respect...maybe we need a new term. Seems to me the background marketing noise has blurred what we started looking for to begin with. There will always be those who won't/don't recognize the difference between their Mom's meal and one from a fast food chain...which one will you count on to sustain you?
Just my opinion...you be the judge.

 

[Snapshot9]

My thoughts ...

Even a custom cue maker already has specs that
he offers up to a potential customer, and lets him
select the disireable options.

I would simplify things by saying:

If the Quality Control or Assurance Manager
is the cuemaker, then they are a Custom Oriented Shop.

If the Quality Control or Assurance Manager
is someone other than the cuemaker, then they
are a Production Oriented Shop.

 

[drivermaker]

Even a custom cue maker already has specs that
he offers up to a potential customer, and lets him
select the disireable options.

I would simplify things by saying:

If the Quality Control or Assurance Manager
is the cuemaker, then they are a Custom Oriented Shop.

If the Quality Control or Assurance Manager
is someone other than the cuemaker, then they
are a Production Oriented Shop.

So I guess what you're saying is that if Paul Mottey comes in and tells James White (the cuemaker on a specific cue) that something doesn't look right to him and he thinks a change should be made, Mottey cues are really a production oriented shop, is that correct?

Yeperoonie...that makes a lot of sense to me.

 

[Bruce S. de Lis]

There are a number of cues that Jerry McWorter puts out like that which are all of his own design and specs that are just awesome and sure wouldn't bother me to say...yeh, I have a McWorter cue (and not even throw in the word custom) who gives a damn?! It's just a McWorter one of a kind cue.

drivermaker you got a GREAT Q....

 

[drivermaker]

I think there's pretty much agreement that if you call a cuemaker and tell him EXACTLY what you want in the way of a design, weight, balance, joint, taper, and tip size and he makes that cue as stated, it is a true CUSTOM Cue.

Here's an hypothetical scenario and question I just thought up so how would you interpret it and what would you call this cue...production or custom?

Let's say you went to sleep one night with visions of sugarplums dancing in your head, and eventually started dreaming about a cue. You saw the design in your dream and just flipped out. The next morning, you still saw it vividly in your minds eye and laid it out on paper and thought about the rest of the areas of your cue that you would like to make it a true custom with the only decision to be, what cuemaker would you call to do the work.

Later that day, you happened to be surfing the web and stumbled on the Jacoby website (could be Schon, Fury, etc.) where you have never been, and lo and behold, in one of their line of cues is the EXACT design that you were dreaming about. You run to get your drawing and bring it back to check, and by damn if EVERY little detail on that cue isn't identical to the one on the website. Not only that, but the joint (which is SS and what you wanted) as well as the taper and tip size are what you would have ordered.

The only thing you have to do now is make sure the weight is identical to your desire. (Which they would naturally do)

Would you consider that cue to be a custom or a production cue and what would your reasoning be for either one?

 

[matthew staton]

custom or prodution cues- a custom cue is any cue that is a one of a kind no matter who makes it. A prodution cue is any cue that they have made over 10 of. A ltd. cue is any cue that is made in a low number from 2 to 6 cues this is just my opinion. There are a lot of cue copanys like viking,jacoby,peachure,mcdermott who will also make custom one of a kind cues or modifie a production cue to your liking. My budie has a peachure with a ivory joint hand splice points and ivory ferule cue one of a kind and there is to many ass holes out there that think this kind of cue is a production cue. just my 2 cents I get a little fired up on this topic!!!

 

[Matt_24]

This was posted on www.schoncues.com by Evan Clarke if anyone is interested:

Schon Custom Cues came into existence in 1981 and we have been at our Burnham St. location since 1986. We have a miniscule output , sometimes going 2 weeks without actually finishing any cues. I frequently hear the all knowing term “production cue” applied to our cues with an implied sneer. The fact is that we are one of the oldest custom cuemakers in the world with a total staff today of 5 people. I personally design, finish and test every cue myself. Everyone here is a full time craftsman, not telemarketers or corporate hypsters. The only thing we do is make cues...Evan Clarke 1-11-05

Any thoughts?

Has anyone "truly" defined the term "Custom Cue" yet?