What is your opinion on Pro players that pattern rack the balls?

Alternating breaks, rack your own, pattern racking allowed. After the break, the other player decides to play the rack or give it back. Each break is like a push. Now that would make for a far more interesting game.

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And my reasoning is this - the whole problem with 9 ball is that the game is just too easy. The only reason the rack matters so much is that if you can get a reasonable shot out of the break, even a mediocre amateur shot like me has a real chance of running the table. I don't run every time, or 1/2 the time. Maybe I'll run out 1/5 of the time, or less. I don't know. If it's going to be a real test of skill, though, someone like me shouldn't be running out at all unless I get extremely lucky. Everyone yip yaps about how the break has become a very controllable skill shot. OK, fine. Let's make it a real skill shot and a real part of the game, just like it is in 14.1. I would even go as far as to say put the 1 ball wherever you want it. As long as you hit it first, go to town and play the best push you know how to play.
 
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justinb386 said:
Okay, so then start making it fair for both players, and play alternate breaks at the pro level. Pattern racking is not a big deal if alternating breaks. Either that, or have a 3rd party rack the balls.
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Good break rules take care of pattern racking issues, IMO. I personally like the rule requiring 3 balls to go up table, but whatever it takes to get a hard break that randomizes the balls pretty well: Nine on the spot, break from the middle, etc.
 
justinb386 said:
At the pro level, I think any type of non random racking should not be allowed.
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It's just too hard to know whether something is random. Quick story: When Apple put "shuffle" into iPods to randomize the songs that played, lots of people complained that it wasn't truly random. The same song would repeat, it would sometimes follow the exact order in the album, etc. But it really was random. So Apple jiggered the algorithm to stop repeats and the like, and the complaints stopped. It took making the feature less random for people to believe it was more random.
 
spartan called it for sure. no brainer to have ref rack balls and stop all the bs. and please don't say "not possible, it's been done in other than mosconi events. would also stop all the insane "checking of the rack" these players are all good enough not to need an added advantage. just play the damn game.
 
I am new and inexperienced to this game compared to many others on here. It is my opinion that pattern racking would not be against the rules if it did not give one player an advantage over another. The only fair way to handle that problem would be to have a third party rack the balls for all players. I have books written by Willie Mosconi that tell you exactly how to rack the balls and there are other resources out there telling you how to manipulate the rack to your advantage as well.I also think that if you have a set of rules that lays out exactly how the game is to be played all aspects of it should be enforced. I think that should include all rules about equipment used in the game. There are many rules that people conveniently overlook besides pattern racking. For example I have read in most rules that the tables must be at least one inch thick slate. Yet I have seen many pool tables used in tournaments that had less then one inch thick slate. It seems that the rules change over time. I don't even think they had template racks available when the BCA rules were written. It is probably time to update all the rules to include new technology. The majority of the tournaments and exhibitions in the 60's, 70's, 80's were played on tables with 5" bucket pockets. The problem with creating an up to date set of rules is that there are several amateur leagues out there that tend to be less restrictive on things like the equipment to be used. If you look at the typical bar league you will find a wide variety of tables that may not be even close to quality game play. If you look hard enough you can probably still find bar tables being used that are not even slate. I can guaranty you can easily find valley or dynamo tables being used in leagues that do not have the quality of the Diamond Smart Table they would play on in regional or national bar tournaments.
 
Could care less....

I don't much care what the pros do as it really has little influence on my game and in Alaska you never see them. But, I detest cheaters. So maybe it would be a good idea to just not worry about pattern racking. Let every one do it.
 
justinb386 said:
I think that as good as these top players play (and I am not sure who all out there likes to pattern rack the balls, or if mostly all the players are doing it), it should not be allowed at that high of a level.

Do these elite players really need to pattern rack the balls?

I do not think there is any honor in doing that, for an unfair advantage.

I was just watching this Orcollo match, and the commentator started talking about how Orcollo was racking the balls in the exact same order every time, and all of the layouts were very similar after every break.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5CRbIGy5PE

Orcollo played really great, but I think it seemed a little too easy for a player of his level.

I wonder why tournaments allow pattern racking.

I think it should not be allowed (not at a pro level tournament anyways), and if a player is caught doing it, then I think they should get at least some type of penalty (like maybe an automatic loss of that game, or something).

What do you think?

Thanks for any thoughts.
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...............Until pool is a sport, it is what it is. There are no rules in the ''real world'' on how to herd cats. When you combine late night activities with alcohol and drugs, you've got a normal setting, with someone ALWAYS looking for an advantage. It's like the players whining about the 14.1 Challenge @ DCC this year, excessive wiping of the cue ball before each break of rack. Anytime a pool player thinks he can gain an advantage, especially if no rule is in place, he'll do it. Just like the business world.
 
It seems there is a silent acceptance among pros about pattern racking as no one seem to be complaining to the TD. Or are the players so ignorant they don't know the rules forbid it? They just don't care?
 
mjantti said:
It seems there is a silent acceptance among pros about pattern racking as no one seem to be complaining to the TD. Or are the players so ignorant they don't know the rules forbid it? They just don't care?
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When one gets in a racking situation here's what I do. After the balls are racked and before they are broke, I ask if it's ok for me to do the same.
 
What nobody talks about is defensive racking when you rack for your opponent. There's a lot to it if you want to make their runout as hard as possible.
 
justinb386 said:
All of the balls should be racked randomly, other then the 1 up front and the 9 in the middle. At the pro level, I think any type of non random racking should not be allowed. A really good 3rd party racker would make things the most fair I think.
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:speechless:



I just don't see what the problem is...to rack the same way every time.

They just randomly end up the same way is just coincidence.



.
 
Island Drive said:
...............Until pool is a sport, it is what it is. There are no rules in the ''real world'' on how to herd cats. When you combine late night activities with alcohol and drugs, you've got a normal setting, with someone ALWAYS looking for an advantage. It's like the players whining about the 14.1 Challenge @ DCC this year, excessive wiping of the cue ball before each break of rack. Anytime a pool player thinks he can gain an advantage, especially if no rule is in place, he'll do it. Just like the business world.
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So, not only do you need to be a really great player to be a champion, but you also need to be really smart about learning every possible advantage that you can get. I wonder how many champion level players in history did not become champions, maybe because they were too honorable to learn all of this extra stuff that you need to know to have the best advantages to win (playing 9 ball).
 
justinb386 said:
So, do you think they do it (and learn and practice doing it) because they think (or know) the other players will be doing it too, or do you think they do it to try to have an advantage?
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mjantti said:
It seems there is a silent acceptance among pros about pattern racking as no one seem to be complaining to the TD. Or are the players so ignorant they don't know the rules forbid it? They just don't care?
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What mjantti said. I just posted on this in another recent thread on this topic. I don't know why they do it, there could be numerous reasons. But it is rampant among professionals. So unless one believes they don't know the rule and they don't have a clue their opponent is doing it, it seems obvious to me that they are knowingly breaking the rules and allowing their opponent to do likewise.

Take your choice:

- Don't want to be considered a tattle tale.
- Pride.
- Ego.
- Think it's a legitimate skill and a stupid rule.
- Will take whatever advantage they can.
- Professional courtesy.
-None or all of the above.

One thing is for sure, there is no reason a final shouldn't be racked by the TD.
 
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poolguy4u said:
:speechless:



I just don't see what the problem is...to rack the same way every time.

They just randomly end up the same way is just coincidence.



.
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I do not understand what you are saying, sorry. I never thought about putting the balls in any particular order, other then the 1 ball going up front, and the 9 ball going in the middle. All of the other balls I never paid any attention to (in all of the years that I have racked 9 ball, since I started playing back in the mid 90's). I never knew that pattern racking existed until very recent years. It amazes me how smart these players are out there. They seem to know all of the best advantages to take, in order for them to have the best chance of winning. It does not bother them to pattern rack, or to give their opponents the most difficult type of rack possible (by putting the balls in a certain order to make run outs the most difficult). I think that I understand now that if they have the rule about 3 balls needing to go above the spot, then that makes pattern racking pointless? It only works on softer breaks, right? I ask, because Orcollo was using his playing cue to break, and he was breaking pretty soft in that match.
 
DogsPlayingPool said:
What mjantti said. I just posted on this in another recent thread on this topic. I don't know why they do it, there could be numerous reasons. But it is rampant among professionals. So unless one believes they don't know the rule and they don't have a clue their opponent is doing it, it seems obvious to me that they are knowingly breaking the rules and allowing their opponent to do likewise.

Take your choice:

- Don't want to be considered a tattle tale.
- Pride.
- Ego.
- Think it's a legitimate skill and a stupid rule.
- Will take whatever advantage they can.
- Professional courtesy.
-None or all of the above.

One thing is for sure, there is no reason a final shouldn't be racked by the TD.
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I think that a lot of pro level players are not smart enough to learn all this extra stuff that players learn and practice (probably a lot) to give them an advantage. One player I can think of that I imagine is not into pattern racking, and the soft break, is Jesse Bowman. I do not think he was doing the soft break (like most of the other players) in the last US Bar Table championships that I seen him play in. He just breaks the balls at hard as he can, and I assume just preys for a shot after the break. I may be completely wrong about him though. He is a great player, and a champion, but I do not think he had a chance of winning, by not doing the same thing that all other players were doing. Sorry for going completely off topic.
 
justinb386 said:
So, not only do you need to be a really great player to be a champion, but you also need to be really smart about learning every possible advantage that you can get. I wonder how many champion level players in history did not become champions, maybe because they were too honorable to learn all of this extra stuff that you need to know to have the best advantages to win (playing 9 ball).
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Pool has always been about gaining every possible advantage in order to win. Pool has a pretty clean image too....it's been a lot rougher than it is now.
 
Pool is a game of skill, if a player has put in the time to get patterns from the break, which can be nearly the same on each break, that's a skill learned.
They should be allowed to do it. Too bad for the other players that don't put in the time to make the game a touch easier on themselves.
Life isn't fair, and nobody should not be allowed to have a slight advantage over others that can put in the time.
My stance on pool leagues is the same, handicapping only removes our time we put in. I don't care if it makes it more enjoyable for others or that it's fair that they get spotted so they can hang with people they shouldn't be competing with. If they want it, they will practice and put in their time.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
 
dave_k said:
Pool is a game of skill, if a player has put in the time to get patterns from the break, which can be nearly the same on each break, that's a skill learned.
They should be allowed to do it. Too bad for the other players that don't put in the time to make the game a touch easier on themselves.
Life isn't fair, and nobody should not be allowed to have a slight advantage over others that can put in the time.
My stance on pool leagues is the same, handicapping only removes our time we put in. I don't care if it makes it more enjoyable for others or that it's fair that they get spotted so they can hang with people they shouldn't be competing with. If they want it, they will practice and put in their time.

Sent from my Nexus 6 using Tapatalk
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The problem is that pattern racking turns the game into a complete joke that's just not worthy of top level play anymore. It's like playing a golf tournament using just one hole. What's the point? Eventually everyone just figures out every nuance of the fairway and green, and nothing interesting every happens anymore save for the occasional mishit or lucky shot.
 
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