What it takes to be an expert

[ShootingArts]

Expert knowledge doesn't mean somebody can execute. The top coaches that played seem to have been mostly midlevel guys, solid but not great. Some people seek great players to get instruction from. I find them to rarely be great instructors, especially if they are still competing at a world class level Different mindsets and few can shift gears and do both at the same time.

Is the ball staying on the same side of the side pockets? I think I've done three rails back to the pocket near me. I typically cross to the other side of the near pocket and back to the pocket near where the ball started. Those can be useful if you need to avoid a double kiss or get the cue ball somewhere. And most importantly, it looks badass. That's one of those where your opponent is thinking he didn't leave you anything and POW! Now he's thinking "what do I gotta do to beat this guy, he's got an answer for everything! "

It can cross over or not according to your needs. It is indeed one of those shots that blindsides somebody who hasn't seen it. Once you have it working with one set-up then working on variations so you can use it in game play is handy. In my misspent youth I sometimes used it instead of a straight back bank simply because I had practiced it a lot more. Also as you know, you could casually walk off while the shot is playing out, implying it was a hanger!

One of my favorite things is to find the shots that people aren't expecting then look over at them and say in a flat voice, "It was dead." Sometimes it really was. The hardest part of the shot was seeing it.

That is one of the things that makes Efren great. He has been watching and studying what happens on a pool table for a lifetime. A very few might match his understanding of the behavior of pool balls despite his lack of formal education, maybe even because of it. He is one of those fine examples of people that may not know why something works but they know what works!

Hu

 

[George the Greek]

I remember breaking (9 ball) and the next ball on was on the rail a few inches from the side pocket and the CB about a foot or so even with the OB. A friend said nobody gets out from there lol. Well I guess I'm nobody and drove the CB into the OB and it went over the CB airborne into the side pocket and I ran out the rest of the rack. I gotta like luck once in a while.

 

[tomatoshooter]

Expert knowledge doesn't mean somebody can execute. The top coaches that played seem to have been mostly midlevel guys, solid but not great. Some people seek great players to get instruction from. I find them to rarely be great instructors, especially if they are still competing at a world class level Different mindsets and few can shift gears and do both at the same time.



It can cross over or not according to your needs. It is indeed one of those shots that blindsides somebody who hasn't seen it. Once you have it working with one set-up then working on variations so you can use it in game play is handy. In my misspent youth I sometimes used it instead of a straight back bank simply because I had practiced it a lot more. Also as you know, you could casually walk off while the shot is playing out, implying it was a hanger!

One of my favorite things is to find the shots that people aren't expecting then look over at them and say in a flat voice, "It was dead." Sometimes it really was. The hardest part of the shot was seeing it.

That is one of the things that makes Efren great. He has been watching and studying what happens on a pool table for a lifetime. A very few might match his understanding of the behavior of pool balls despite his lack of formal education, maybe even because of it. He is one of those fine examples of people that may not know why something works but they know what works!

Hu

That's a good point about the difference between expertise and execution. How many top coaches were also perennial all-stars as players? I don't think most had noteworthy careers as players unless they happened to be on a very good team.

That's a great point about the dead shots. If you know enough banks, something is going to be dead, you just have to see it.

 

[maha]

a practical way to define an expert is someone who is better than the vast majority in their field

 

[iusedtoberich]

I agree. I think an expert has to be someone better than the vast majority of people "that regularly perform the same activity/sport/job/etc".

So for pool, a banger would consider a Fargo 500 an expert. But we all know a 500 is just average. I think all of us lifelong pool players would consider about a 700 to be an expert. They are the best few in a big city room, and regionally known.

 

[The_JV]

I agree. I think an expert has to be someone better than the vast majority of people "that regularly perform the same activity/sport/job/etc".

So for pool, a banger would consider a Fargo 500 an expert. But we all know a 500 is just average. I think all of us lifelong pool players would consider about a 700 to be an expert. They are the best few in a big city room, and regionally known.

Having a tool like fargo makes gauging what an expert is interesting. We also need to consider my favourite principle when it comes to being an authority on subject matter, and that's the "Dunning Kruger effect".

Lets use myself for an example. I carry a ~680 rating without too much effort. Meaning I don't put hours of practice in to maintain that success rate. I've also been playing billiards in some shape or form for close to 40yrs. I have a very firm grasp of the physics of the game, and apply numerous techniques to manipulate the game to my will. HOWEVER, I do not practice any main stream aiming systems, or play fringe games like 1pkt or 3 cushion.

So am I an expert or not...?

I don't consider myself one, but I do have a short line of players asking for my formal assistance to improve their games. Why...?..., probably because of my rather snooker traditional approach to fundamentals and success rate. From the outside looking in. It looks like I know what I'm doing...lol. My own personal assessment (not expert) is tempered by my lack of delusion regarding my knowledge of the game and the reality of 'Dunning Kruger'. I'm experienced enough to know the likely hood of being a true to form expert is unlikely. Even though I'm confident the glass ceiling of my rating is constructed by merely a lack of concentrated effort.

I'm also confident that the higher you go in fargo. At least in the 650 to 750 range. You'll find less and less players that deem themselves as "experts".

IMHO, being an expert is more akin to knowledge then it is ability.

 

[SpiderWebComm]

IMHO, being an expert is more akin to knowledge then it is ability.

If that's the case in pool, make a list of the posters on a pool forum with the most posts regarding all or specific facets of pool. More than likely they really aren't experts, just perceived experts or self-anointed based on creative writing, debate skills, number of posts over a long length of time.
Forums, regardless of subject matter, have without a doubt some of the greatest number or experts than anywhere else.
(I do consider myself to be an expert in something but it sure as hell has nothing to do with pool)

Knowledge vs. ability? Depends on what is being discussed and compared. If you needed heart surgery, who would you rather have...a professor in some University or a Dr. that has performed hundreds of them successfully. Even the surgeons have varying levels of knowledge. My choice would be ability.

 

[iusedtoberich]

...snip...

IMHO, being an expert is more akin to knowledge then it is ability.

IMO, the "expertise" has to do with the activity. Pool is an activity of making balls (or caroms since you mentioned 3C). To bring this to modern times, there could be an AI computer that analyzed every pool video ever made, and figured out all the best shots. I don't think that would make that AI computer an expert, because it can't physically "do" the task.

Now I'll contrast that with an old pool player. Let's say Danny Deliberto. He played well beyond expert ability for decades, but now due to old age, he can't. I'd still consider him an expert.

 

[Rocket354]

That's a good point about the difference between expertise and execution. How many top coaches were also perennial all-stars as players? I don't think most had noteworthy careers as players unless they happened to be on a very good team.

While many/most top coaches in other sports weren't all-stars, they were still overwhelmingly in the pros. A guy who makes the majors or makes the NBA is already an expert and far, far on the tail of the ability curve, even if they weren't Barry Bonds or Michael Jordan.

The pool equivalent to an MLB or NBA bit player would probably be someone in the 700-750 Fargo range.

As well, age affects the more purely athletic disciplines more. Coaches in MLB/NFL/NBA sure can't play any more, but most could play, even if just in college. A 50yo coach in one of those disciplines is very different from a 50yo pool player, who could still be extraordinarily strong.

Ultimately, I would distrust any pool coach who is rated too lowly for the simple fact that learning fundamentals and some regular table time is all it really takes to get into the 550-600 range. If someone hasn't/can't even do that, what are they going to teach me? I want someone who has paid the price of getting very good to teach me how to get very good. Whether that person topped out at 720 or 820 isn't really relevant, but there is still a floor of accomplishment needed in order to take the person seriously.

 

[The_JV]

IMO, the "expertise" has to do with the activity. Pool is an activity of making balls (or caroms since you mentioned 3C). To bring this to modern times, there could be an AI computer that analyzed every pool video ever made, and figured out all the best shots. I don't think that would make that AI computer an expert, because it can't physically "do" the task.

Now I'll contrast that with an old pool player. Let's say Danny Deliberto. He played well beyond expert ability for decades, but now due to old age, he can't. I'd still consider him an expert.

I always find it fun to use the actual definition of words here on AZB:

So you can cite a person's ability (skill) when determining them as an expert. However the 'knowledge' seems to be the common denominator in the above definitions.

I could have total understanding of "spin induced throw" for example, and explain in depth the process and results. Teach a player how to recreate the phenomenon by instruction. However not have any arms, and thereby unable to strike the CB in the necessary fashion. Because of my physical limitations. Am I not an expert in SIT...? Clearly I am, even though I cannot perform it.

Ability does not equal "expert".... <--just because you can perform a task does not mean you understand why it's happening
Expert does not equal "ability".... <--understanding why it's happening doesn't mean you have the physical ability to do so
Knowledge does not equal "ability".... <--same as above
Knowledge 'can' equal "expert".... <--I say "can" only because our understanding is limited by our understanding, and the yes the recursion is intentional

 

[The_JV]

Ultimately, I would distrust any pool coach who is rated too lowly for the simple fact that learning fundamentals and some regular table time is all it really takes to get into the 550-600 range. If someone hasn't/can't even do that, what are they going to teach me? I want someone who has paid the price of getting very good to teach me how to get very good. Whether that person topped out at 720 or 820 isn't really relevant, but there is still a floor of accomplishment needed in order to take the person seriously.

Careful... I've said as much when members here have spouted their personal theories about the best way to aim. Trying to validate other's 'opinion' with their accomplishment/success is very taboo on this forum...lol

 

[nataddrho]

The top coaches that played seem to have been mostly midlevel guys, solid but not great…

I am waiting for my flight back from the BCA Expo, and I haven’t had time to sleep well. I read “medieval” instead of midlevel. After that I had some funny mental pictures.

 

[ShootingArts]

After watching The Cincinnati Kid I borrowed his line with slight variations to suit for years. "The suckers say I am a gambler, the gamblers say I am a sucker."

Hu