What Makes Or Breaks A Fan

I don't think there's a player in any sport, especially pool, that has the support of 100% of the fan base. Some have greater backing than others, so what is it about an individual player that creates interest or disinterest?
Is it looks...playing ability...weight or shape of their body...charisma or lack thereof...friendliness...showmanship...money winnings...tournament wins...money player hustler reputation...style of play...or something else?

There are some threads now and in the past where forum members (fans) have voiced their pleasure and displeasure toward various players very strongly. It's quite apparent that Buddha isn't very much of a fan of Jeanette Lee while others think she's the greatest. I don't think anybody has a more divided fan base than Earl. For the most part, Charlie Williams is viewed as this wretched little Napoleanic ogre, however, that seems to be changing over time especially since he played a major role in the winning of the Mosconi Cup. Keith has come under fire here on AZ at times, but was treated like dirt on RSB a year or two ago. And the list goes on and on.

Why? What makes or breaks you as a fan from one player to the next? We've had the opportunity to meet some of the players, but for the most part it's only a perception that we glean from either the written word, heresay, or some TV time. Yet, those same individuals garner either a like or dislike from a similar fan base. What is it which causes that?

A few weeks back, I got the distinct impression that Gremlin wasn't a fan of Jennifer Barretta when some words went back and forth between them. What caused that on his part? What would make the Gremlin, lover of all WPBA members come down on her? I watched her play on TV this past week and was quite impressed with her focus, determination, and playing skills to knock off Karen Corr after taking up the game only 5 short years ago, and she's definitely some of the best eye candy material in the game. She also handles herself professionally and with class in interviews, although some have taken offense at her FHM and Billiard's Digest picture shoots.

But sometimes it's the little things that they do or don't do. Personally, I'm not a fan either and here's why. Since no pictures are offered on her website for purchase and it's ill prepared for those requests, a number of months back I asked her for an action shot playing at the table. Wait a minute...let me retrace my steps...I didn't ask for a picture, I offered to be the FIRST to BUY one and start a new business venture for herself that didn't exist. A number of other women players already have that option going on their website. I kinda got the promise and seemingly the runaround along with an ignore job, so my feelings are, why should I BEG someone to take my money and put it in their pocket if they don't want to, along with building a fan base. Right now, I couldn't care either way whether she develops saddle bags and her ass gets as wide as a sequoia tree, she wins the US Open, or was on a pay-per-view Miss Nude pool tournament. I'm a fan gone forever.

On the flip side of that, I'm a big fan of Allison Fisher and Ralf Souquet for their attentiveness and promptness to a request. A few years ago I took a shot in the dark and emailed a question to Allison about her tip size (yes, that's the correct spelling) and why she chose it. Within 1 hour of sending it out, she replied back in complete detail. I couldn't believe it and was totally impressed. I did the same with Ralf Souquet except I asked what all of his specs were on his cue. He reponded back in such finite detail with EVERYTHING, that it had me almost stunned. At a later date, I had a chance to speak with him at a tournament and he was the most cordial, non-assuming, individual that you'd ever want to meet. He gave his full attention while we were speaking to each other and wasn't looking around the room for something else or a reason to escape as many will based on their star celebrity status. He was a true professional and gentleman.

That's where Arnold Palmer had it right and NOBODY in sports had a greater fan base and love than Arnie did. He always made eye contact, signed autographs, posed for pictures, chatted, and made everyone feel important.

There are others that I have a hard time supporting as a fan, one of which has to do with nothing else other than their style of play. I know Danny Basavich is a great guy and well liked by everyone, but unless he's playing under the 30 second time limit, I can't take it and go nuts. It just drives me up a wall and I can't get past it. Helena Thornfeldt is another one for the same reason. If she didn't have the shot clock running, a nine ball match could last an entire day.

So what is it that makes or breaks YOU as a fan?
 
1. I am a fan of any player who can do what I can't do. [Skill]

2. Entertainment value. Antics, temper tantrums, etc. can be fun to watch.

3. Sharking is a turn-off. Don't care to watch that.
 
Gosh Drivermaker, was it you and I who had that debate going on in the poll/thread I started about why is your fav. WPBA player your fav.? I could have sworn it was you. :confused: Anyway, I think you got it...fans flock after the folks that have the best personality...the friendliest...the most approachable...those kinds of things.

Personally, I have NEVER been a fan of any one person or team...at least in the past. Not to the extreme that I would go wicked crazy rooting for them. I don't have a favorite Football or Basketball team. If we were watching a game I would root for the opposite team as you...just so we have some spice. In Baseball, my fav team is the Braves...why? Because my Daddy taught me...am I a die hard Braves fan? Ummm no...but I will root for 'em any day. Same goes for competitors. I HATE the Yanks! Why? Same reason...because of my Dad. I will vote against the Yanks until the day I die. :eek:

At this point in time I have no fav. male pool player. I would pick Keith more so than anyone, just because I know something about him from these boards. There is one male Pro who I always want to loose, just because when I talked with him he came across as a pompous ass who thought he was better than the world.

I know a bit more about the women players, but still is there one person I would root for until the day I die? Yes. Why? Because to me she is not a pool Pro and THAT is the most exciting part. Knowing someone gives you the fire and desire to be a fan, at least for me. It makes following the sport/ player/team THAT much more exciting. As of right now, women's pool is the only sport of which I am a die hard fan. The other sports I'd rather play than watch...oh, of course I'd rather be on the table than sitting on the sidelines with pool too!

Do I have my other favs.? You bet, and I like these people because I see some of me in them. It is the little reaction after a win/ loss, the facial expressions...those kinds of things. Then for others it is a conversation, an attitude...something along those lines. I guess the real clincher for me is realness. I lose a bit of respect if I think someone is being fake.
 
it's any or all those things you mentioned. and like anything else, you can NOT like someone for the simplest of reasons. maybe gremlin doesn't like baretta's style, maybe he doesn't like HER. maybe they bumped into each other and either was in a "mood'. who knows.

but it all starts with ability. i don't think anyone would have a single fan if he/she stunk.
 
It's kind of interesting how one interaction with a person of celebrity status can form long-lasting opinions. :)

Not too long ago, I went to a PGA Booz-Allen golf tournament in Potomac, Maryland. Keith is an avid golf fan, watches EVERY SINGLE DAY on the tube. When we found out the PGA was having a tournament near our home, off we went, and it was my first experience.

This guy named Rory Sabbatini was the previous year's winner, and so we followed him from Hole 1, until Hole 8 or 9. Nobody prepared me for walking up and down hills and valleys like a mountain goat, and my feet began to hurt. So we advanced forward to the 18th hole, found ourselves a nice spot on a grassy knoll, and watched the players finish out the last hole.

After the 18th hole, the golfers then take their scorecards to a booth. There was a fence there where all these kids were lining up, hoping to get an autograph from the players as they exited the green.

Most of the players were very accommodating, but one golfer pro, Rich Beam, shot 5 over that day, never even looked in the direction of the fans, and stormed off, upset because he had a bad tournament. Keith said he was a real jerk to just walk away like that, as the kids were calling his name, hoping for a few seconds of his time.

What was very funny to me was seeing all of those little children with their hands out for autographs with one big kid in the mix, which was Keith. He was the biggest fan in the group, waiting patiently, chatting with the players, with his hat held out, hoping to get an autograph (LOL).

And then I saw him. I never knew he was a competitor in this venue, and up walks Esteban Toledo. I read a book about his life story. He learned to play golf working at a driving range in Mexico, the youngest of 11 children who grew up in a home with dirt floors and no plumbing. As a youngster, he picked up lost balls out of a pond at Mexicali Country Club and sold them back to golfers to make ends meet. He wanted to become a pro, but couldn't realize his dreams due to discrimination. An affluent gentleman from California took a liking to Esteban when he was young and made his dreams come true, helping him become a professional golfer.

I forgot about my swollen feet and raced over to the fence with Keith and the other kids to get this man's autograph. He was signing them, left and right, and when he came to me, I told him, "I read a book about you, and you are truly an inspiration." Esteban looked up at me and genuinely appreciated my compliment and talked with me for a few minutes. It was the thrill of a lifetime, him providing me a few minutes of his time. Because of it, I continue to be a fan of Esteban Toledo and now watch golf more regularly, hoping to catch a glimpse of him.

Celebrities may not realize how much little things like that mean to the fans, but first impressions do stay with you. As far as pool players go, I really admire Buddy Hall. He always takes time to sit down and chat with the pool fans, and he never has a bad thing to say about anybody. He's definitely one of the greatest pool players in my lifetime, and I am most definitely a Buddy Hall fan. :)

JAM
 
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You covered it pretty extensively Drivermaker, but some of the things that make me like or dislike a player:

The thing I dislike most about a player is when they have an inflated ego, they are very rare but there are a few players out there that seem to think their better than everyone else, your not Donald Trump so stop acting like him LOL!

Other than that I'm pretty much a fan of almost all the players, maybe it's because I have so much respect for their skill or maybe I'm just that easy to satisfy I don't know. You also mention that there isn't a player in any sport that has the support from 100% of the fan base but in pool there are a couple players that gotta be close, at least 95% support. Players like Robles, Reyes, Salvas, and Souquet just to name a few are liked by just about everyone.
 
JAM said:
It's kind of interesting how one interaction with a person of celebrity status can form long-lasting opinions. :)

This guy named Rory Sabbatini was the previous year's winner, and so we followed him from Hole 1, until Hole 8 or 9.

Most of the players were very accommodating, but one golfer pro, Rich Beam, shot 5 over that day, never even looked in the direction of the fans, and stormed off, upset because he had a bad tournament. Keith said he was a real jerk to just walk away like that, as the kids were calling his name, hoping for a few seconds of his time.

Celebrities may not realize how much little things like that mean to the fans, but first impressions do stay with you. As far as pool players go, I really admire Buddy Hall. He always takes time to sit down and chat with the pool fans, and he never has a bad thing to say about anybody. He's definitely one of the greatest pool players in my lifetime, and I am most definitely a Buddy Hall fan. :)

JAM


I'm curious as to your impressions of Rory Sabatini. Hopefully I don't influence you in what I'm about to say, but in a Golf Digest issue last year the caddies voted on who were the schmuck asses on Tour and he was voted as one of the tops by those that are carrying bags inside the ropes. Rory was also a competitor in the World Long Drive Championship about 3-4 years ago and a couple of other guys that I know who were also competing thought that he was a cocky pompous jerk.

As far as Rich Beem goes...his behavior should NEVER have occurred since he was a past winner of that event (when it was the Kemper) in 1999 and had MANY fans cheering for him and he should have acted like a past champion.

I have to agree with you about Buddy Hall, he's a great guy, approachable by one and all and will always chat a little.

But many times, unlike yourself that can meet many pro's up close, the fans only get to see someone on TV or from a distance. If you do have an opportunity to meet and talk, naturally a stronger impression is made and I think for the most part they're usually positive, but not always.

Let's take a few names of players that can create either positive or negative feelings toward fans and I often wonder why: Jeanette Lee; Vivian Villareal;
Mike Sigel; Charlie Williams; Grady Matthews; What is it about these individuals that can stir the emotions so much one way or another?

I may also be out of touch and off base on this one, but Karen Corr has a great playing record even on the Joss Tour against the men, has been #1 and the leading money winner, ability that still hasn't reached it's peak which is already at the top in women's pool, yet has a smaller fan base than some with less talent, wins, and money.

And then, what about all of the other players out there that work hard, have game along with personality, yet stir no emotion or many fans?
 
Here are my opinions:

drivermaker said:
Let's take a few names of players that can create either positive or negative feelings toward fans and I often wonder why: Jeanette Lee; Vivian Villareal;
Mike Sigel; Charlie Williams; Grady Matthews; What is it about these individuals that can stir the emotions so much one way or another?

Rumors that fans have heard from one source or another, unconscious feelings based on appearance and behavior, jealously or idolization...and etc..

drivermaker said:
I may also be out of touch and off base on this one, but Karen Corr has a great playing record even on the Joss Tour against the men, has been #1 and the leading money winner, ability that still hasn't reached it's peak which is already at the top in women's pool, yet has a smaller fan base than some with less talent, wins, and money.

Most people want the under dog to succeed. It gives the fans something to strive for. I mean really, how fun is it to watch a match when you know the out come? If you take Alison or Karen and stick them up against the best female player in my area I know for a fact that Alison and Karen would win, but I am going to be rooting for my local player just hoping that she will knock them off of their podium.

drivermaker said:
And then, what about all of the other players out there that work hard, have game along with personality, yet stir no emotion or many fans?

Lack of knowledge...their names and faces are not in the spotlight frequently enough for the fans to know who they are.
 
drivermaker said:
I'm curious as to your impressions of Rory Sabatini...
I got a chance to talk to his girlfriend/wife alongside a couple of holes as she was rooting him in. I liked her a lot, and she seemed very down to earth. He just played his game, but I could kind of tell who wears the pants in that family (LOL). :D

drivermaker said:
As far as Rich Beem goes...his behavior should NEVER have occurred since he was a past winner of that event....

The kids were calling his name, "Hey, Rich," "Rich, over here," et cetera, and he never even looked over in their direction, just stormed off after he turned in his scorecard. :mad:

drivermaker said:
...But many times, unlike yourself that can meet many pro's up close, the fans only get to see someone on TV or from a distance. If you do have an opportunity to meet and talk, naturally a stronger impression is made and I think for the most part they're usually positive, but not always....

I know exactly what you mean. KM is probably one of the most misunderstood players, due to fate, more than design, and every time the word "Earl" appears in a subject heading, the posts light up like a firecracker.

There's something about Buddy Hall, though, when you get to know him a little, he is the real deal. He's been there, done that, and today, I consider him an ambassador for the sport. I can't say enough nice things about Buddy. :)

JAM
 
Well, being a winner will attract the most attention in most cases. Other things that will make are class, personality, friendliness, individuality, character, honesty, willingness to communicate, creativity, down to earthness, good looks, approachability, etc.

Efren being a big time winner and having a lot of these positive attributes has an enormous fan appeal.

Earl being a big time winner and having some positive attributes but lacking a lot of others has a divided fan base.

The other thing that crops up a lot is how the individual interacted with you. I played Johnny Archer once and he basically ignored me from beginning to end of the match. As a result I am not much of a fan of his.
Danny Harriman at DCC in a 9 ball match called a referee on me because I gave him a 9 ball sitting in the hole left me with a sour taste toward him.
Corey Duell at the Reno tournament was the only one wearing sneakers (which was against the rules) left me thinking he is pompous.

These are just a few examples which left me with lasting impressions, any one of these could be turned around quickly if I got to know the individual and it turns out that my impression of them was wrong.

Keith is a major character and I am a fan of his but I am aware that he has rubbed some the wrong way and as a result there is an opposing opinion of him by some.

Earl was very friendly once while warming up for a match and apparently this is an attribute of his but his antics during matches create a lot of negative opinions of him. I like him but I wouldn't trust him to behave properly if I was playing him.

Funny enough, the fastest way I have found to make friends with pro players and gain their respect is to beat them or give them a really challenging match.

Wayne
 
wayne said:
Well, being a winner will attract the most attention in most cases. Other things that will make are class, personality, friendliness, individuality, character, honesty, willingness to communicate, creativity, down to earthness, good looks, approachability, etc.

Efren being a big time winner and having a lot of these positive attributes has an enormous fan appeal.

Earl being a big time winner and having some positive attributes but lacking a lot of others has a divided fan base.

The other thing that crops up a lot is how the individual interacted with you. I played Johnny Archer once and he basically ignored me from beginning to end of the match. As a result I am not much of a fan of his.
Danny Harriman at DCC in a 9 ball match called a referee on me because I gave him a 9 ball sitting in the hole left me with a sour taste toward him.
Corey Duell at the Reno tournament was the only one wearing sneakers (which was against the rules) left me thinking he is pompous.

These are just a few examples which left me with lasting impressions, any one of these could be turned around quickly if I got to know the individual and it turns out that my impression of them was wrong.

Keith is a major character and I am a fan of his but I am aware that he has rubbed some the wrong way and as a result there is an opposing opinion of him by some.

Earl was very friendly once while warming up for a match and apparently this is an attribute of his but his antics during matches create a lot of negative opinions of him. I like him but I wouldn't trust him to behave properly if I was playing him.

Funny enough, the fastest way I have found to make friends with pro players and gain their respect is to beat them or give them a really challenging match.

Wayne


Now that's from an interesting and different perspective. So what do you feel about various women on the WPBA? Why and for what reasons?
 
drivermaker said:
That's where Arnold Palmer had it right and NOBODY in sports had a greater fan base and love than Arnie did. He always made eye contact, signed autographs, posed for pictures, chatted, and made everyone feel important.
I had the pleasure to meet Arnold Palmer at the Desert Inn Seniors tournament back in 90 or 91 when I lived in Vegas and I was in a very large crowd of autograph seekers. There was a guy to Arnies right that kept shoving his paper in his face and Arnie finally stopped and politely said, "Sir, I'm trying to get the kids first, I'll get to you when I can." I was on Arnies left and right after he said that he grabbed my players form and signed it and told me thank you. HE told ME thank you, I'll never forget it.
Also, I was sitting in Lee Trevinos golf cart and his caddie came over, I believe his name is Herman, and as he started to sit down he looked at me and said,"Hey big boy, I don't think theres enough room for both of us in here." Lee came over as I got up and signed my players form and asked me if I was waiting for him. I said, "Nah, I was just tired, thought I'd take a seat for a minute." Now I know the players don't use carts during the tournament but his caddie had one for whatever reason, maybe just to lug his clubs to the driving range, who knows? My point being is this, Arnold Palmer and Lee Trevino are really nice guys that put up with a lot of inconveneince from fans at times but they don't let it get to them, for the most part. From the 18th green to the club house, it took Arnie at least an hour to make that walk because of the fans, and he did it with a smile on his face the whole way.
I also met Jack Nicklaus at the Riviera in L.A., and I walked with him as he was watching one of his sons play. I was a little drunk at the time and was cracking jokes with him and whether he thought it was funny or not, I had him laughing his ass off. That guy is super cool in my book. I never once asked him a golf related question and I got the sense that he appreciated that. I don't know what he was thinking, obviously, but he felt at ease with me as I did with him, I'm sure of that.
Anyway, to make a long story longer, LOL, my favorite player is Rodney Morris because he's also my friend and we went through some tough times together, made it through in 1 piece, and are now going on with our lives. The guy has talent, he's good with his fans, and he always has a smile on his face when he's playing, win or lose. I don't know the women players personally, except for Robin Bell Dodson, but when I watch the women play on tv, I like the styles of Allison and Jeanette because they are creative, more so than the others, IMO.
I hope this wasn't too long winded, I think I got too much sleep today. :D
Peace, John.
 
How can anybody not like Efren? He is always professional, polite and able to laugh at himself. Sure there are communication problems, but in talking to some Filipinos' I know, they say he down to earth no matter where he is at. I've seen him in big money games and playing someone who is nowhere near his speed and giving huge spots and he is always the same.

As for Keith I am guessing that people on other sites are referring to episodes in yrs gone by. I do know that he had problems in So. Calif, which he would be the 1st to admit, but he was still the most entertaining player on the planet. The fact that he has cleaned up his act so much, in comparison, speaks highly of him and his current associations.

I've watched both Efren and Keith against one another and against others and they are still the only 2 people I would gladly pay to watch play.
 
JAM said:
There's something about Buddy Hall, though, when you get to know him a little, he is the real deal. He's been there, done that, and today, I consider him an ambassador for the sport. I can't say enough nice things about Buddy. :)

JAM

I had never watched Buddy up close until the GGC. I was really quite taken with one thing I noticed about him. He takes no shot for granted. He seems to approace a straight in shot a foot from the hole with the same determined thought that he would a table length 70 degree cut. This is what makes a truely great player.

Pel
 
wayne said:
.

Danny Harriman at DCC in a 9 ball match called a referee on me because I gave him a 9 ball sitting in the hole left me with a sour taste toward him.
Corey Duell at the Reno tournament was the only one wearing sneakers (which was against the rules) left me thinking he is pompous.

Hi Wayne,

You must have got a charge out of the fact he was DQ'ed from the UPA Tournament. I wonder if he had a flashback to the low blow he gave you.

Chris
 
drivermaker said:
So what do you feel about various women on the WPBA?

I havent had the opportunity to feel very many of them.

Why and for what reasons?

Guess I am too old or not good looking enough(just kidding).

(Seriously) I havent played against too many of them but all of the ones I have played have been class acts, this includes Melissa Herndon, Eileen Pippin, Jennifer Chen, Helena Thornfield, Robin Dotson, Ming Ng and maybe a few others.

Wayne
 
TATE said:
Hi Wayne,

You must have got a charge out of the fact he was DQ'ed from the UPA Tournament. I wonder if he had a flashback to the low blow he gave you.

Chris


True, but I guess it is time I let it go. It sounds like he has some serious issues to handle. Also, what he did against me was covered by the rules and was my mistake and there were extenuating circumstances for him, he had won the Derby City banks that year and was in the running for the overall and the fact he was losing his match to me probably caused him to act the way he did. I am careful to ask before I give anything to anyone now.

Wayne
 
JAM said:
The kids were calling his name, "Hey, Rich," "Rich, over here," et cetera, and he never even looked over in their direction, just stormed off after he turned in his scorecard.
JAM


Well, as I said, as a past winner of that tournament is was not only a classless thing to do since he had some ties and obligations to the D.C. community, but it probably didn't even bother him or make him think twice about it later to have any regrets.

Now I did a good job in my opening post of slamming Jennifer Barretta and came up just short of calling her a turd. I'm glad I didn't, because unlike Rich Beem who went storming off the golf course with no afterthought or remorse, Jennifer PM'd and gave a heart felt apology for not following through. And then she proceeded to send not 1 picture, which I requested, but 4. She's a class act and I really do wish her the best on tour, and yes, I'll be rooting for some wins and a move up in the rankings. I guess a fan lost can once more be a fan gained. I think, although I might have to have my arm twisted, that I could also be talked into watching the Pay-per-view matches if they were ever to come about. :cool: Gooooooooo JENN!!
 
JAM said:
There's something about Buddy Hall, though, when you get to know him a little, he is the real deal. He's been there, done that, and today, I consider him an ambassador for the sport. I can't say enough nice things about Buddy. :) JAM

JAM, I'll preface my comment by saying that Buddy's credentials as a player say he's one of the best that ever played the game, and is one of the four best nine ballers of all time, along with Earl, Archer, and Efren.

Still, I've never thought of him as a true ambassador for the game. Still, rater than arguing he isn't one, I'd rather just assume I'm mistaken and ask for an education. What does Buddy Hall do to advance the cause of professional pool and in what way does he qualify as an ambassador of the game?
 
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