What would you do here (14.1)

[Jude Rosenstock]

I toyed with that idea, Jimmy. Pretty good idea against a weaker player, but against a stronger player, I reckoned they'd never fall into the trap and if I unfroze the cue and the nine, I'd probably give up a very easy bank on the fourteen. As you say, though, the tactic could possibly work.

SJM, I really like your idea. That appears to be the easiest to execute with the greatest result. I wish I could say I would have thought of it but unfortunately, I'm absolutely certain I would have tapped the cue-ball. My only thought would be opening up a safe behind the 12. No matter what, I'd be back-scratching to a safe situation to at least get me back to the table for some form of a response.

 

[Rod]

Or did you Rodd suggest that you have pushed through the ball anyway thus making a deliberate foul by a double hit? I think my opponent wouldn't have liked that because it can be considered as unsportmanship conduct...

I knew the foul was there and the rule. I't can't be called unsportmanship, moves like that are common. A double hit especially in a tight area. You know your on one and still at a disadvantage, so does your opponent. He may even commit a double hit trying to freeze it to the 12, who knows? Now in some situations where you keep pushing with the cue against other balls, yes, it can be a blatant foul. BTW, just call me Rod, I had to add an extra D to my name because Rod was taken as a screen name long ago. Or call me as others do, well I can't say that here! LOL

Rod

 

[Bob Jewett]

I knew the foul was there and the rule. I't can't be called unsportmanship, moves like that are common. A double hit especially in a tight area. ...

I agree that intentional double hits are not normally called as unsportsmanlike conduct, but should they be? The place I've most often seen them at 14.1 is when players are playing soft safeties against the side of the rack and trying to get the cue ball part way into the rack. I think this is accepted at 14.1.

But suppose you are playing one pocket, and your opponent has a couple of balls near his pocket, and one hanging in his pocket and he has frozen you against the bad side of the rack and there is no way to kick in the hanging ball. You choose to shoot straight towards his pocket with good force and a little draw. The rack parts like the Red Sea, and Whitey Moses marches through to sink the hanger. Ten balls cluster near your pocket. Good shot?

A less unrealistic case: suppose you are against the side of the full rack at 14.1, and take one of the "push the cue ball into the rack" safeties since your opponent is on the first foul. You push a little harder than intended, and the cue ball ends up where the eight is often racked and completely surrounded by object balls with no clear path to the cushion. Should that be more than a standard foul?

Please note that in the above I haven't taken any position one way or the other -- I'm just asking how people feel about that kind of shot.

 

[Rod]

I agree that intentional double hits are not normally called as unsportsmanlike conduct, but should they be?

Pushing into the side of a 14-1 rack is ok, but just a little nudge.

In the one pocket game, why not? It was a stroke. The chances of making your position better isn't likely. I'd love it if anyone chose to do so. LOL Of course they could get lucky. I played a guy often that would do that, once in a great while he got lucky but not very often.

The last example is not legal. I think it comes down to making a stroke as opposed to a constant push. Possibly not the best explanation but I'm short on time.

Rod

 

[pete lafond]

Tough spot. All would be a gamble on speed. But, using spinning right english the following safety does allow for some distance error.

 

[bsmutz]

Nobody mentioned kicking at the 5 to the corner. Since you decided to leave him at that end anyway, I think I would have gone for the 5. You at least have a chance at making it.

 

[LastTwo]

Tough spot. All would be a gamble on speed. But, using spinning right english the following safety does allow for some distance error.

The cueball and 9-ball are frozen together, I don't think you can get enough english to do that without striking far enough outside, and the 9-ball is in the way.

 

[bruin70]

The cueball and 9-ball are frozen together, I don't think you can get enough english to do that without striking far enough outside, and the 9-ball is in the way.

apparantly they are not frozen,,,but the shot is do-able nonetheless.

 

[gulfportdoc]

A most unpleasant situation, Mikko, but there is a shot that would give you a relaistic chance to start a safety battle, and that would be taking a scratch by ducking the cue ball slowly two rails under the five. If you execute it, you're probably on even footing in the safety battle, and if you don't you may leave no more than the missable fourteen in the corner.

This is the shot I like. Any way you come behind the 5 ball from two rails is good. Snuggling up behind it would be ideal. About 1/2 tip of left english with slow speed would do it. Even if the 14 becomes open, with the CB on or near a rail, this becomes a very difficult shot, sure to sell out if missed.

Doc

 

[pete lafond]

This is the shot I like. Any way you come behind the 5 ball from two rails is good. Snuggling up behind it would be ideal. About 1/2 tip of left english with slow speed would do it. Even if the 14 becomes open, with the CB on or near a rail, this becomes a very difficult shot, sure to sell out if missed.

Doc

I see what you are saying though the 14 is an easy shot if is left open. Given most long shots, the 14 would be a favorable one with a high percentage of making it. And don't forget if you hit the 5 by accident you may also leave it as a shot into the side pocket. I am not downgrading this shot, if executed with reasonable accuracy if would fair quite well.

 

[sjm]

I see what you are saying though the 14 is an easy shot if is left open. Given most long shots, the 14 would be a favorable one with a high percentage of making it. And don't forget if you hit the 5 by accident you may also leave it as a shot into the side pocket. I am not downgrading this shot, if executed with reasonable accuracy if would fair quite well.

Points well taken, Pete, and, while I like my chances to execute the two rail scratch under the five, there's no question that there's a danger of giving up the fourteen in the corner. to me, giving up the five in the side would take a very poor effort. Still, two additional factors are worth considering. First, if opponent has to bridge off the rail while shooting the fourteen, they may have a tough shot with a possible scratch angle. Second, if the long fourteen were pocketed at the wrong speed, the cue ball might end up under the twelve, no man's land in the view of many in this thread. To sum, even if the fourteen is left as a shot, opponent is not certain to gain even if they make it.

 

[woody_968]

I'd probably tap the top of the cue ball with my cue.

I dont know if anyone else pointed this out, but if you tap the top of the cueball with anything but the tip it is a very harsh penalty. I believe its 15 pts off and the balls are re-racked and you must break, although I would have to look at the rules to be sure.

 

[Williebetmore]

I dont know if anyone else pointed this out, but if you tap the top of the cueball with anything but the tip it is a very harsh penalty. I believe its 15 pts off and the balls are re-racked and you must break, although I would have to look at the rules to be sure.

Woody,
Yes (though opponent has the additional option of accepting the rack as is, or re-racking and making you fulfill the requirements of the opening break). This happens to Efren Reyes in his Accu-Stats match against Dallas West. Efren still wins.

 

[bruin70]

Points well taken, Pete, and, while I like my chances to execute the two rail scratch under the five, there's no question that there's a danger of giving up the fourteen in the corner. to me, giving up the five in the side would take a very poor effort. Still, two additional factors are worth considering. First, if opponent has to bridge off the rail while shooting the fourteen, they may have a tough shot with a possible scratch angle. Second, if the long fourteen were pocketed at the wrong speed, the cue ball might end up under the twelve, no man's land in the view of many in this thread. To sum, even if the fourteen is left as a shot, opponent is not certain to gain even if they make it.

i think there's a better probability, if you leave a shot on the 14, of leaving the cb in front of the pocket instead of the rail. THAT would make the shot easier and give the shooter the opportunity to stroke the cb low and break of the cluster in the center.

mjantti said his opponent was good. mjantti is good. so i don't see the 14 giving the player any problems.

a poorly executed safety to the 5, but leaving the cb in the general area, leaves the opponent the 15,12, or 14. the poorly executed 3 rail safety behind the 12 but in the general area, leaves the 12 in the far corner.

the possibilty of the cb dropping on the 5 shot is greater than on the 3 rail to the 12.

 

[woody_968]

Woody,
This happens to Efren Reyes in his Accu-Stats match against Dallas West. Efren still wins.

Yup, I have that match, was really surprised when he did that.