What Would You Do Here? Straight Pool
- Thread starter sjm
- Start date
I respectfully submit that the carom play is too risky, and I say that in full deference to Mr. Martin's excellence.
In my opinion, with a perfectly viable break shot in the 14, and a very reasonable way to get there (either playing the 5 up table or preferably in the same hole as the 11), good straight pool dictates there is no reason to get fancy here.
The positional zone to go two rails to get on the 5 leaves a pretty wide margin for error; the only possible reason I could see for wanting to avoid this is if Mr. Martin did not have the good fortune to be born a lefty.
Simply making the carom doesn't guarantee concluding the rack to a perfect break shot. You could wind up too flat on the 14, which is a disaster. You could wind up on the rail, shooting the 14 awkwardly because of the looming opposite side pocket.
I say the above with all due respect sjm, both to you and to Mr. Martin. I think it's too fancy, and given the position, wholly unnecessary. I will admit that I didn't even see the shot and am very, very impressed with his creativity (as well as all the posters who suggested it).
Happy new year,
Steve
P.S. This was a great shot to put up, sjm. Lots of options, creativity, and discussion. Excellent!
In my opinion, with a perfectly viable break shot in the 14, and a very reasonable way to get there (either playing the 5 up table or preferably in the same hole as the 11), good straight pool dictates there is no reason to get fancy here.
The positional zone to go two rails to get on the 5 leaves a pretty wide margin for error; the only possible reason I could see for wanting to avoid this is if Mr. Martin did not have the good fortune to be born a lefty.
Simply making the carom doesn't guarantee concluding the rack to a perfect break shot. You could wind up too flat on the 14, which is a disaster. You could wind up on the rail, shooting the 14 awkwardly because of the looming opposite side pocket.
I say the above with all due respect sjm, both to you and to Mr. Martin. I think it's too fancy, and given the position, wholly unnecessary. I will admit that I didn't even see the shot and am very, very impressed with his creativity (as well as all the posters who suggested it).
Happy new year,
Steve
P.S. This was a great shot to put up, sjm. Lots of options, creativity, and discussion. Excellent!
sjm said:
What is amazing to me is that even if I had them tell me exactly what to do, it is not enough.
I once told Efren that if he coached me I would never make another mistake (that was my first one LOL!).
He says "oh yeah, let's see". I executed his first 4-5 shot intruction flawlessly then he asked me to pocket a ball and drive the cue ball through another ball with follow................using a low drawstroke
I was done It has taken me almost 10 years to understand what the hell he was talking about. I now do
Edit: Efren has tried to coach Luat and others in money games and I have seen the mutual frustration because they have no clue what he is talking about. I used to think it was a language barrier between Efren & I, but after seeing this same thing with other Tagalog speaking Phillipinos, I understood this was not the case. It is an issue of conceptualization/visualization and perception. Vague?
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Steve Lipsky said:
Steve, I don't think I ever really gave my slant on the choice. In the inital post, all I mentioned was that what Ray Martin did truly surprised me. I just remember being blown away by Ray's creativity, thinking it brilliant that he even saw this option.
Perhaps Irving Crane's first reaction that the five should have been abandoned in favor of the fourteen as a break shot was right after all. Still, even Crane, just like me and you, found Ray's creativity remarkable, and in his case, enough to reconsider the approach to this layout.
I'm not sure it's important to reach a conclusion here, Steve. I'm just adding this position to the already towering heap of evidence that straight pool offers players a chance to be remarkably creative, imaginative and insightful. I know it's one of the reasons we both love it!
Thanks for your holiday wishes, and wishing you the same. It was nice seeing you and Gina on Wednesday at the Amsterdam Billiard Club.
sjm said:
sjm,
For what it is worth; after you showed me this shot last summer, I set it up and found that it is really no problem at all to control the speed of the cue ball on this shot. Even for a novice like me it seemed quite easy to slow roll the cue ball, or to play it firmer, coming off the bottom rail for an angle of the 14. I like my chances a lot on this shot.
Incidentally, during a recent trip to Mark Wilson's Billiard Bullpen; he worked with the students present on taking ball in hand, and achieving position by using an extreme thin cut on the object ball (object ball close to the hole). A little practice, and the students were achieving remarkeable results. I do not believe it is beyond the average player's capability to develop proficiency in controlling the cue ball on thin hits.
Again, I'm with Steve on this. The carom shot is just too risky--too many things can go wrong if it isn't hit just right. Moreover, it isn't necessary. If that were the only way to create a breakshot, then, okay, maybe it makes sense.
The other thing I don't like is, even if you reposition the 5-ball to an advantageous position, there is no assurance of a good angle resulting from the carom shot to get the right angle on the last remaining ball to get good on the breakshot. If there existed one more ball in the pattern it might not be so bad.
My guess is Ray was way ahead and feeling frisky, or way behind and figured 'What the hell, I might as well try to run some.'
The other thing I don't like is, even if you reposition the 5-ball to an advantageous position, there is no assurance of a good angle resulting from the carom shot to get the right angle on the last remaining ball to get good on the breakshot. If there existed one more ball in the pattern it might not be so bad.
My guess is Ray was way ahead and feeling frisky, or way behind and figured 'What the hell, I might as well try to run some.'
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I was just thinking, I used to see Johnny Ervolino do stuff like what Ray did all the time. Maybe players of his caliber and Ray can do stuff like that with confidence.
Me, if I did tried it with a game on the line and pushed the 5-ball into the rack and got straight on the 14-ball, I'd be furious because I already had an acceptable breakshot that was easy to get on (the 14).
Me, if I did tried it with a game on the line and pushed the 5-ball into the rack and got straight on the 14-ball, I'd be furious because I already had an acceptable breakshot that was easy to get on (the 14).
Pino,
The answer was that Ray made the 11 after kissing off the 5. This moved the 5 into the ideal break ball position and used the 14 as the key ball. One thing I thought of as another option if you are also against using the 14 is that you could make the 11 and then the 14 after which you leave the cueball in the rack and shoot the 5 as the breakshot with ball in hand behind the headstring. Perhaps that's not practical or not feasible, but it's just something else I thought of.
The answer was that Ray made the 11 after kissing off the 5. This moved the 5 into the ideal break ball position and used the 14 as the key ball. One thing I thought of as another option if you are also against using the 14 is that you could make the 11 and then the 14 after which you leave the cueball in the rack and shoot the 5 as the breakshot with ball in hand behind the headstring. Perhaps that's not practical or not feasible, but it's just something else I thought of.