What would YOU do here?

[JoeyA]

Your opponent breaks and leaves you this.

CueTable Help

Push? where to? jump? kick? explain thoughts

Thanks,
Chris

I would put the two in a little worse position than it is now just behind the 9 ball hitting the two ball very softly and floating the cue ball right up against the nine ball with the one ball looking LONG, STRAIGHT, and TOUGH, not only because it is long and straight, but you're jacked up and it is going to be hard as it can be to get shape on the two ball.

CueTable Help

JoeyA

 

[Southpaw]

I would choose the same push as Jude, but I would push the cue ball to the middle diamond and try and keep the cue ball close to the rail. If I get the shot back, I just bank the 1 up table and try and get the cue ball down table behind the 4,6 or 5 ball.

Southpaw

 

[BRKNRUN]

I would choose the same push as Jude, but I would push the cue ball to the middle diamond and try and keep the cue ball close to the rail. If I get the shot back, I just bank the 1 up table and try and get the cue ball down table behind the 4,6 or 5 ball.

Southpaw

There lies the biggest problem with most push shots...It is almost more of a cat and mouse game.

You wan't to tempt them into trying something stupid and at the same time are hoping they are not smart enought to "just do the easy shot"

Frankly......for whatever reason...It feels a bit like poker....You may even almost look at a shot you want them to attempt, or put on a little "act" like you gave up a shot....when in reality you are just trying to take their attention away from the easy safe because you want them to shoot the flyer....

 

[av84fun]

There lies the biggest problem with most push shots...It is almost more of a cat and mouse game.

You wan't to tempt them into trying something stupid and at the same time are hoping they are not smart enought to "just do the easy shot"

Frankly......for whatever reason...It feels a bit like poker....You may even almost look at a shot you want them to attempt, or put on a little "act" like you gave up a shot....when in reality you are just trying to take their attention away from the easy safe because you want them to shoot the flyer....

Exactly. That's why I chose my shot. I want to tempt him to shoot a low probability shot...and a possibly scratch...especially since the route from the 2-3 is no piece of cake which is my insurance.

Better players are going to see and execute the same safties you see which is one of the reasons the incoming player wins 60% of the time.

Tempting them to shoot is very often the only way to break the odds back in your favor...and if he makes it...does he get shape and if he gets shape...oh well, you were probably going to lose the rack anyway.

Regards,
Jim

 

[dabarbr]

[

Pushing to that spot on the short rail like you suggest is fine but I would first relocate the two to insure that my opponent would not be tempted to try to make the one.

Moving the two along with a head rail push is what I thought as well because if he chooses to shoot and happens to make the one, position on the two is likely with just speed alone.[/QUOTE]



My point exactly. With the two out of position then I would welcome for them to try a shot on the one. There would be much traffic in the way for position on the two.
I doubt any top player would attempt a shot on the one if the two was on the short rail and the cue ball near the rail also.

 

[buzzsaw]

There lies the biggest problem with most push shots...It is almost more of a cat and mouse game.

You wan't to tempt them into trying something stupid and at the same time are hoping they are not smart enought to "just do the easy shot"

Frankly......for whatever reason...It feels a bit like poker....You may even almost look at a shot you want them to attempt, or put on a little "act" like you gave up a shot....when in reality you are just trying to take their attention away from the easy safe because you want them to shoot the flyer....

I like the old adage "give them enough rope to hang themselves". If you do too good of a job on the pushout, you may have to shoot it yourself.

 

[td873]

I would push to the location I show above. My reasoning is simple. I'm leaving him very long and tough. Any safety or shot made here will be earned.

CueTable Help

Personally, I wouldn't shoot this push. No matter what the score is, I'm taking the shot after the push. My response would be a simple 1-H reply - since the shot isn't difficult to execute (even from the rail) and there are 5 blockers. The 5 blockers means that you have a huge margin for error. If you under hit it, you might get safe behind the 4 or the 6 or the 5. If you over hit it, well, the same thing since the cue ball will travel farther. And the return shot after push out is pretty difficult, IMO. As the incoming player, I would figure the odds were in my favor for winning this game after the push.

CueTable Help

If the score is tight, my push choice would be this:

CueTable Help

The key here is you need the 3/5 semi-tied up. [A simple rule of thumb is: anytime you can get 2 odds, or 2 evens tied up, you have a decent push]. You might be stuck with a one rail kick or a jump afterwards, but the table will be pretty difficult. As long as you don't do something stupid and bust up the 3/5 if the push gets passed back

If I'm pretty far ahead, I think my push choice would be:

CueTable Help

I would be betting my opponent will take this shot. And this is no kindergarten shot. If he passes back, I would up-and-down the 1 ball and try to push the cue ball somewhere by the 8.

And, if I'm pretty far behind, I would either push to a little better jump shot, or just shoot the jump from here. Gotta make a move sometime -> live by the sword and all that jazz

-td

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

CueTable Help

Personally, I think you're taking a big risk with this push. I understand, if you nail it precisely as you outline, you're okay but if you don't, you pretty much lose.

Let's say you tie-up the 3-ball and leave the cueball behind the 6. It's getting passed back to you and you're fetching your jump cue.

If you fail to get the cueball behind the 6 and fail to tie up the 3, your opponent will immediately accept position and run out.


I'm not saying this push is bad. I understand there are times you need to take certain risks and depending on your opponent's skill level, it might be an appropriate risk. Personally, I would rather place the needed skill on executing the following shot rather than attempt a push that requires a lot of skill.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

...even making the 1 at the angle will still require a good effort to get from the 2 to the 3. If they get out that rack they probably are named Shane.

Whatever the right first shot is, I don't think the question is whether or not your opponent can get out; the question is whether or not your opponent can get control of the table. If he makes the 1 and gets a look at the 2 he might be able to get close enough to the 3 to play a good safety and really lock you up - that might be as good as running out.

pj
chgo

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

This reminds me of a push shot a local female pro did against me a couple years ago. It was hill-hill and she had just run out the previous two racks to tie it up. She broke, made a ball and had to push. In her push attempt, she was trying to leave the cueball slightly behind the 6 with the hopes that I would pass the shot back to her.

CueTable Help

She failed to do this. Left me a clear view of the 1-ball. I proceeded to safe her snuggly behind the 7 and ran out after she fouled.

I told her afterward the mistake with her push. It was too great a risk. If she left the cueball completely behind the 6, I wouldn't have even left my chair knowing there was no chance she would be able to execute an accurate stop shot while jumping over a full ball (not to mention, keeping the cueball on the table since she had little room to work with). However, more to the point, she assumed I would fail to recognize a manageable shot. I mean, how can anyone judge a jump they would be willing to do that their opponent wouldn't do in this scenario? If there IS a difference, that difference would require overwhelmingly precise cueball placement (fractions of an inch).

When you push, you have to try and create a situation where your chances of winning are 50/50. There ARE situations where you can play with these odds but you have to be careful with them.

Such situations can be:
1. Your opponent has an obvious weakness
2. You have an unusual strength
3. Your opponent is heavily favored and you want to make sure the shot is passed back to you.

 

[RRfireblade]

Seems simple to me. Jump the one in the corner with a little draw, cheating the left side of the pocket so you back into position of the 2.

Runout from there.

That's how'd I do it anyway.

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Personally, I wouldn't shoot this push. No matter what the score is, I'm taking the shot after the push. My response would be a simple 1-H reply - since the shot isn't difficult to execute (even from the rail) and there are 5 blockers. The 5 blockers means that you have a huge margin for error. If you under hit it, you might get safe behind the 4 or the 6 or the 5. If you over hit it, well, the same thing since the cue ball will travel farther. And the return shot after push out is pretty difficult, IMO. As the incoming player, I would figure the odds were in my favor for winning this game after the push.

CueTable Help

-td

Regarding your response, below is the actual cueball path I think you would get if you wanted to get the 1-ball there.

CueTable Help

Yes, you do have multiple blockers but I think you're going to come very close to the upper-left corner pocket and the firmness/angle required to reach those blockers could send the 1-ball off course. You're also shooting from the rail and I'm pretty certain most players can get it close to frozen so accuracy is going to diminish.

I mean, the bottom line is, you're right. Your safety is definitely in play but I don't consider your safety to be necessarily easy and unless you freeze up on something, there's a reasonable chance it's going to get kicked. No matter what, the game could definitely go few innings before someone gets to run some balls.

 

[jamesroberts]

I agree, I might try to get it a little closer to the pocket, just to increase the angle.

for the really agressive player like myself i would cut the 2 in and leave the cue ball close to the bottom rail that way you have a shot on the 1 with a way to the 3 ....

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

for the really agressive player like myself i would cut the 2 in and leave the cue ball close to the bottom rail that way you have a shot on the 1 with a way to the 3 ....

Yeah, somebody else mentioned this idea. I like it a lot. It accomplishes more than my idea in some ways. Definitely a good way to go, IMO.

 

[jamesroberts]

Yeah, somebody else mentioned this idea. I like it a lot. It accomplishes more than my idea in some ways. Definitely a good way to go, IMO.

o i like makin the 2 and bringin the cue ball over by the bottom left hand pocket and shooting the 1 in the corner where the 3 is

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

o i like makin the 2 and bringin the cue ball over by the bottom left hand pocket and shooting the 1 in the corner where the 3 is

Okay, now you don't make sense. Do you mean you would push the 2-ball in and try to leave a cut on the 1-ball in the bottom left corner. If your opponent passes it back to you, you would cut the 1-ball in?

 

[jamesroberts]

Okay, now you don't make sense. Do you mean you would push the 2-ball in and try to leave a cut on the 1-ball in the bottom left corner. If your opponent passes it back to you, you would cut the 1-ball in?

yup im not sure how to use the table to diagram it

 

[fan-tum]

Need help. I clicked edit on the original post, moved the c.b.,copied, clicked quick reply on orig. post, but the dialog box doesn't have the "wei" button. What do I do after copying my layout?

 

[Jude Rosenstock]

Need help. I clicked edit on the original post, moved the c.b.,copied, clicked quick reply on orig. post, but the dialog box doesn't have the "wei" button. What do I do after copying my layout?

there should be an "advanced" option which hides the wei button when editting.

 

[td873]

Personally, I think you're taking a big risk with this push. I understand, if you nail it precisely as you outline, you're okay but if you don't, you pretty much lose.

Definitely some risk - which is inherent in any push.

But for me, and my style of play, I will usually accept the risk of pushing the 5 to the bottom rail in order to get myself to 50/50 chance to win the game, rather than shooting a passive push hoping my opponent makes a bad decision or fails to execute. I typically don't like to leave the game in my opponent's hands and hope he screws up.

In any event, the key thing to take from this thread is that the shooter needs to think about the push - and not just shoot it. People will differ on the right shot based on their experience, their skill level, and their opponent. But, no matter what factors influence your decision, you need to evaluate the risks/rewards BEFORE you shoot. You should NEVER push-out to a random location just becuase you are hooked. There has to be a REASON to push somewhere.

Everyone misses, it's expected. But there is no excuse for letting your brain take a mini-vacation while playing. Don't shoot flyers!

-td