I'd say your speed is entirely amazing.
Most likely pro level.
What'd be my speed?
- Thread starter Zphix
- Start date
Most likely pro level.
Judging your own speed is not that difficult. Post an uncut video of yourself playing the 9-ball ghost in a race to at least 9 on a 9-foot table with "normal" (4.5") or smaller pockets, and we'll tell you your speed. (Hint: A-players will beat the ghost in a race like that more often than not.)
I guess there's a bunch of us here at pro level and didn't even realize it.:dance::clapping:
Hell Allen, Efren asked for a spot the last time we played :grin:
. Does that mean I play "pro speed" too ?Actually you probably are closer to the point. From the posts I've read over the years on AZ, there are more than enough pro level players to start a tour with just us
.Seeking individual speed is a question best answered on a pool table in competition. One on one or tournament.
Lyn
I haven't gotten around to every response; I'm pretty accustomed to the varying degrees of responses on here so I'll add further input based on what I've seen so far.
I left for Green Bay in August, and since then I've been playing 4+ hours on 9 footers at the University every day since then. Sometimes I drill, but often times I break 8-ball racks and try to run the table out. For months now I've been focusing on seeing a feasible run out and I'm proud to say that I see definite improvement in my game. I guess feel improvement is a much better term; shooting, and playing position feels much different for me now. More often than not I know where I want the ball to go and I know how to get it there.
Also, I gamble with the "clique" of Wisconsin shooters like Billy TheKid, Berry, Chris Bonde, John Fields, Nate, etc. etc. I absolutely love how alive the pool scene is here in Wisconsin and needless to say these guys are helping me to improve. Their ratings (AA, master, grandmaster, etc.) are all based on the tournaments they've played in over the years.
So yes, I started as an APA 4. Truth be told I have no idea what my speed is now but I feel that it's not at the APA 4 level anymore. These guys here who have been around pool for 15+ years told me about 2 months ago that I was a solid B player. Maybe I've moved up a little since then?
RJ, YOU'RE ON! I can't wait to get back to Chicago and show you guys some stuff I've learned.
One last thing, in the APA I used to fold under pressure and play down to my opponents. The opposite seems to be true now because the stronger my opponent the stronger my game is. In practice I doubt I'd play as well as I did gambling with the AA player.
-Richard
Not that it matters what I say. If I can, I'll try to get up a video of me playing the ghost.
I left for Green Bay in August, and since then I've been playing 4+ hours on 9 footers at the University every day since then. Sometimes I drill, but often times I break 8-ball racks and try to run the table out. For months now I've been focusing on seeing a feasible run out and I'm proud to say that I see definite improvement in my game. I guess feel improvement is a much better term; shooting, and playing position feels much different for me now. More often than not I know where I want the ball to go and I know how to get it there.
Also, I gamble with the "clique" of Wisconsin shooters like Billy TheKid, Berry, Chris Bonde, John Fields, Nate, etc. etc. I absolutely love how alive the pool scene is here in Wisconsin and needless to say these guys are helping me to improve. Their ratings (AA, master, grandmaster, etc.) are all based on the tournaments they've played in over the years.
So yes, I started as an APA 4. Truth be told I have no idea what my speed is now but I feel that it's not at the APA 4 level anymore. These guys here who have been around pool for 15+ years told me about 2 months ago that I was a solid B player. Maybe I've moved up a little since then?
RJ, YOU'RE ON! I can't wait to get back to Chicago and show you guys some stuff I've learned.
One last thing, in the APA I used to fold under pressure and play down to my opponents. The opposite seems to be true now because the stronger my opponent the stronger my game is. In practice I doubt I'd play as well as I did gambling with the AA player.
-Richard
Not that it matters what I say. If I can, I'll try to get up a video of me playing the ghost.
Mantis, I appreciate the assessment.
A question for everybody; How big a factor do you think hunger is in learning and hitting the learning curve? I absolutely thirst for pool and again, play 4+ hours every day always trying to improve. Does this mentality I have allow me to learn or progress faster? Just a thought.
Also, I found that after I solidified my fundamentals and pre-shot routine I was able to move around the table much better. Like, since getting serious about pool I've had the "idea" of how to get the ball to go where I wanted but I lacked the technical skill to get it there but now my fundamental and technical skill is much better.
I PROMISE I WILL TRY TO GET A VIDEO UP OF ME PLAYING!
Going from where you were to a solid b in 3 to 6 months would be absolutely amazing. In my book, a solid b player will beat the 9 ball ghost about half the time on a 9 foot Diamond.
You were the fellow that said you could consistently bank 5 random balls in a row on a 9 foot Diamond. I'm still waiting for the video you promised.
I understand your impatience to be better with your being young. Usually goes with the territory. However, delusions of grandeur can be a very bad thing in many ways. I would recommend that you'd be better off thinking you're worse than you really are versus thinking you're better.
Continue working with focus on your fundamentals. If you have aspirations of being really good, save up your money and go visit Mark Wilson. That will accelerate your improvement more than anything. Play in some local tournaments where guys like Gene Albrecht are playing. You'll then get a true measure of where you stack up. APA is BS. Your average 7/9 is probably at C+ or low B level.
You were the fellow that said you could consistently bank 5 random balls in a row on a 9 foot Diamond. I'm still waiting for the video you promised.
I understand your impatience to be better with your being young. Usually goes with the territory. However, delusions of grandeur can be a very bad thing in many ways. I would recommend that you'd be better off thinking you're worse than you really are versus thinking you're better.
Continue working with focus on your fundamentals. If you have aspirations of being really good, save up your money and go visit Mark Wilson. That will accelerate your improvement more than anything. Play in some local tournaments where guys like Gene Albrecht are playing. You'll then get a true measure of where you stack up. APA is BS. Your average 7/9 is probably at C+ or low B level.
Hell Allen, Efren asked for a spot the last time we played :grin:
Actually you probably are closer to the point. From the posts I've read over the years on AZ, there are more than enough pro level players to start a tour with just us
Seeking individual speed is a question best answered on a pool table in competition. One on one or tournament.
Lyn
In all honesty you might be on to something here. An AZ Billiards Tour. There are plenty of us all over the country and we could have a regional or even a state tournament for all of the players on here. The top 5 out of each state could then go compete in a BIG year end tournament for, get this, THE AZBILLIARDS CHAMPION!!!!
Someone should take that and run with it......cough, cough, MIKE!!! Id pay a $100 and up entry fee for this one.
Slogan could be: A tournament for players ran by players. We probably wouldnt need sponsor money either.
How many break and runs were there? How many dry breaks? How many of those dry breaks turned into table runs? How many times did you give ball in hand? How many times did you receive ball in hand? How many times did you kick out of a safety? How successful were you against safeties? I could probably ask a few more questions, but you get the point. If your a 'B' player and you were able to beat them with a spot and almost beat your friend with no spot. I'd suspect your friend is closer to your speed than you are to a 'AA'.
Zphix...First of all, I'm not knocking you. Last summer you were a beginner, according to your posts here, and according to what I devised from talking to your brother. Frequently taking a professional lesson leads to serious quick improvement for many (provided you follow the direction of the lesson). You declined that, in favor of just playing...which is one way to do it (improve), but most of the time a slow route for many players. You're very young, and did show a small bit of speed at the Chicago get-together (I wasn't there, but I've talked to some who were). There's no way that you've improved that much in such a short time. No doubt playing with better players will help accrue playing "knowledge", but most of the time, the player will not be able to "make it happen" on demand, under pressure, and especially in one try. Like others said, post a video of you beating the 9 ball ghost, and that will silence the naysayers. BTW, if you're as good as you think you are, win the college tournament in Feb. and go to the ACUI Regional tournament. Win that, and proceed to the national event. THEN you'll be a player. 
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Zphix...First of all, I'm not knocking you. Last summer you were a beginner, according to your posts here, and according to what I devised from talking to your brother. Frequently taking a professional lesson leads to serious quick improvement for many (provided you follow the direction of the lesson). You declined that, in favor of just playing...which is one way to do it (improve), but most of the time a slow route for many players. You're very young, and did show a small bit of speed at the Chicago get-together (I wasn't there, but I've talked to some who were). There's no way that you've improved that much in such a short time. No doubt playing with better players will help accrue playing "knowledge", but most of the time, the player will not be able to "make it happen" on demand, under pressure, and especially in one try. Like others said, post a video of you beating the 9 ball ghost, and that will silence the naysayers. BTW, if you're as good as you think you are, win the college tournament in Feb. and go to the ACUI Regional tournament. Win that, and proceed to the national event. THEN you'll be a player.
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
I've been trying forever to get info on getting into ACUI pool. My campus doesn't partake in it and I've been trying to get information.
I'm not suggesting I'm an A level player, etc. I've got no idea what I'd gauge my speed at. Though, I am asking if it's possible that another reason for this is out there.
Does hunger and lots of table time shorten learning curve? Does my attitude towards learning a hobby/passion shorten the learning curve?
All I can say is that I've made significant improvements in my game for sure: that's all.
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I think a high level of desire certainly affects someone's ability to improve more quickly. An intense desire to improve and a structured practice regime with a lot of table time are all factors for good improvement. If you have been practicing 4+ hrs with people who know the game and have been teaching you, then a jump from where you were to a "B" level is not impossible. Jumping to an A level or AA level is a whole different matter. There is just so much more than just making balls and running patterns that put you at an A or AA level, and much of that requires an advanced knowledge or throw, kicking, banks, safeties etc that most players in their first few years don't even know exist yet.
My thoughts of self assessment are to start with the ghost as many have stated. I think a solid B player beats the ghost around 50% of the time on a 9 footer, and an A player is expected to get out anytime they see an open table, with the rare exception of human error that just occurs. AA can't be gauged with the ghost as it represents an A level with more consistency and an advanced knowledge and ability to play defensive pool, and kick/jump your way out of tight places, as well as an ability to play caroms and combos with good position afterwards.
Keep working at it and enjoy the ride.
P.S. I'd love to see you play RJ. I have only seen him play that night at Chris', but he is a solid B player or better with a good knowledge of the game, so that would be a good gauge.
Like I said, what shortens the learning curve is good instruction. At least then you get an accurate gauge in how repeatable your stroke really is...not just a guess. As far as ACUI...go to their site (Google Association of College Unions International), find out what the costs are for your school to join (it's not a lot), and circulate a petition around school to present to Student Government. If you get enough signatures they will probably fund it (hint: it doesn't have to be just pool...they play ping pong, bowling, chess, etc too).
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com
If you are gambling with Master and Grandmaster players you would do better to pay them for lessons. If you find one that says, "I will give you lessons but only if we go back and start with the basics." you have found a good chance to really learn and improve your game.
The hazard of trying to learn without a coach or instructor is you most likely are creating bad habits that will hold you back in the future.
Nothing can be said for certain from such a small sample, and especially when you get spots etc. Playing on 7 footers doesn't help either. I always thought the american letter ranking system was phony-baloney anyway. Not only does it vary from region to region, apparently, but certain categories are too large or poorly defined. Besides you can't base your skill level on a single encounter with a person. The sort of logic that goes A usually beats B, B usually Beats C, therefore A will beat C is not necessarily true in pool. Sometimes a player just has your number, even though you should be better than him on paper he has some psychological edge over you that is not grounded in physical skill.
To properly assess your skill I suggest you forget the letters and focus on numbers instead.Record your break and run percentage, or even better: Accu-stats scores. Play the ghost, on video, and on a proper 9 foot table with reasonable pockets (neither buckets, nor gaffy pockets). If you can't beat the 9-ball ghost in a race to 10 (for example), you are not a threat to win many non handicapped tournaments (even though offense isn't everything), so I guess if that were true you wouldn't be an AA player from that measurement alone. Straight pool average (points per inning) are also good indicators of skill if taken over time and against many different opponents. If you can maintain 20-15 ppi over time you are at the pro level, 5 is probably C, you can work out your relative level from that.
Trying feverishly to measure your skill every day is like the guy that checks his stocks every 30 minutes. He misses the big picture and will likely work himself up over results that are due to random swings. Since negative news impact us more (a scientific fact), he is likeley to give himself lots of unnecessary grief even if the stocks are going up long term.
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I noticed you said AA and then listed master and grand master. Because of that I think you are combining two different rating systems. Unless you can consistently put together packs on a 7footer you are not an A player. Not knocking you but I have found in pool it is very hard to gauge how good (or not good) you really are because you don't have the knowledge to tell the difference.
While having heart might make you get better faster it's something that most people possess when they begin learning and it still takes a long time to become a B player. It usually takes a few years to get to a B level and if you continue to ignore Scott's advice about getting instruction instead of just practicing by yourself you won't progress that fast.
Even with all that being said- it's good that you are evolving your pattern recognition over time. Don't focus solely on tossing the balls on the table and trying to run out. Drills are boring but are much better especially when learning the basics.
While having heart might make you get better faster it's something that most people possess when they begin learning and it still takes a long time to become a B player. It usually takes a few years to get to a B level and if you continue to ignore Scott's advice about getting instruction instead of just practicing by yourself you won't progress that fast.
Even with all that being said- it's good that you are evolving your pattern recognition over time. Don't focus solely on tossing the balls on the table and trying to run out. Drills are boring but are much better especially when learning the basics.
Two things. I'll give an example that might explain my view on my progress through pool, and second, I'll get up a video of me playing the ghost in 9-ball around January when school resumes. The tables on campus aren't the best to play the ghost on because of how they roll. If I was able to record it at KKs in Green Bay or Appleton that would be a different story.
Next, I'll use the image below to explain how I think I might have progressed in pool. Please refrain from criticizing the picture or example. I know that we're all pool purists and the picture is not to be taken literally, it's only an example.
So, even when I first started in the APA I had the idea of how to get from the 8-ball to the 9-ball along the path I outlined. However, due to poor or inconsistent fundamentals and an inconsistent stroke I couldn't hit the CB where I wanted to, didn't follow through on my stroke, and would often stroke out of line and miss my intended contact point. Other times I'd drop my shoulder on a power stroke, etc, etc. and because of that I had very inconsistent results on a table.
But, with the help of other players (ones who have taken lessons from Scott Lee, Gene Albrecht, Mark Wilson, etc.) I was able to fix my fundamentals so now my stroke and fundamentals allow me to hit the CB the way I intended.
Then, even when I could in the APA I didn't have CB control and would often overhit or underhit for position and then once out of line I almost could never get back in line.
But the fundamentals and stroke have been fixed, and my pre-shot routine almost ensures that I'm already fundamentally sound when I step down into my shot. So, I stroke straight and have better CB control not because I learned how to shoot for position differently but because I have fundamentals that match my cognitive plans I've improved.
What I'm trying to say is; could I have had the position, or cognitive thoughts of a B or A player, and the fundamentals of a C player? Would that have made me an APA 4, and would fixing those fundamentals account for me getting better so much faster?
Next, I'll use the image below to explain how I think I might have progressed in pool. Please refrain from criticizing the picture or example. I know that we're all pool purists and the picture is not to be taken literally, it's only an example.
So, even when I first started in the APA I had the idea of how to get from the 8-ball to the 9-ball along the path I outlined. However, due to poor or inconsistent fundamentals and an inconsistent stroke I couldn't hit the CB where I wanted to, didn't follow through on my stroke, and would often stroke out of line and miss my intended contact point. Other times I'd drop my shoulder on a power stroke, etc, etc. and because of that I had very inconsistent results on a table.
But, with the help of other players (ones who have taken lessons from Scott Lee, Gene Albrecht, Mark Wilson, etc.) I was able to fix my fundamentals so now my stroke and fundamentals allow me to hit the CB the way I intended.
Then, even when I could in the APA I didn't have CB control and would often overhit or underhit for position and then once out of line I almost could never get back in line.
But the fundamentals and stroke have been fixed, and my pre-shot routine almost ensures that I'm already fundamentally sound when I step down into my shot. So, I stroke straight and have better CB control not because I learned how to shoot for position differently but because I have fundamentals that match my cognitive plans I've improved.
What I'm trying to say is; could I have had the position, or cognitive thoughts of a B or A player, and the fundamentals of a C player? Would that have made me an APA 4, and would fixing those fundamentals account for me getting better so much faster?
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It's hard to say exactly playing on 7-foot valley tables since they are considered an easier style table which tend to reduce player differences compared to a 9-footer but it looks to me about even. U might be lower a feather but hardly any at all.
Ive seen people jump up quite a few levels once they developed a true stroke and practiced a lot. At four hours a day, you might have jumped skill wise...that's a lot of time at the table,,,use to do that back in my yute.....won the 17 and under tournament in Chicago when I was 15. Prolly playing 8 hours a dAy back then..of course the old man owned the pool room, so I was not hurting for places to play..good times, good times.
So, you said something about giving me the 8 when you come back into town
Why are you going three rails in your example? Drawing directly across the table will give the same result and shorten the cue ball movement significantly. With the conditions usually found on a Valley bar box, you probably won't end up where you diagrammed anyway!
Lyn
Lyn