What's Good About A Good Stroke?

Can we please quit the wordsmith wars & someone offer conclusive evidence that the pendulum stroke, particularly the finish is better than that of the 'piston' J -stroke. Better... & not because it is more simple & easier to teach, but better.

Now this is hilarious! *You*, the "grasper" of analogies (and analogies that poorly support your case, no less), are complaining about wordsmithing? A definite case of the pot and kettle...

And, sadly, RJ, all this time while you continue to harp on pendulum vs J-stroke, we *have* been explaining to you the reason why instructors teach pendulum and not the J-stroke. But you keep ignoring it, pushing it aside, and focusing on silly analogies and semantics like what kind of movement do today's projectiles use vs. devices of the past, and what kind of movement does the human body use to hurl very heavy rocks -- all of which have bupkus to do with propelling a cue that is suspended from an arm positioned over it. And your bow/arrow analogy? Also bupkus -- for the same reason: the arm is not a string that is equally spaced on both sides of the cue as a bow is. And the human arm -- which flexes on joints -- resembles a taught string in no way, shape, or form. So please don't "grasp" at analogies with devices that in no way resemble the form and motion of the human arm.

The thing you keep glossing over (or conveniently pushing aside), the reason for why simplicity is important, is repeatability. The instructor teaches a simple, repeatable movement, because it is 1.) less moving parts; 2.) easy to produce; 3.) easy to troubleshoot and diagnose problems with. All of these are important to someone who is having problems with consistency or otherwise may've reached a plateau and hasn't figured out why. This is as opposed to teaching a movement that is complex, not easy to produce, and not easy to diagnose problems with.

And, you're making it out like if the instructors "see" you using a J-stroke or whatever, that they're going to rip you down and replace your movements with this cookie-cutter pendulum template. That doesn't happen -- the instructors build upon what the student already has. Only in severe cases, where the student is clearly wrestling with the movements of his/her stroke, will the instructor suggest the pendulum. They (all the instructors) state that.

But you conveniently ignore or push that aside, as if you don't want to hear that, do you? So instead, here you go, arguing these platonic / altruistic ideas you have about the J-stroke (as if you think people are calling your "baby" "ugly" when they're not), and ignoring the pragmatic part of the equation.

Look, I feel I more than adequately addressed all your points about why the pendulum stroke is taught, and I even pointed out why your analogies poorly support your position. So I feel I said my piece, and I'm not going to continue going back and forth with you, pointing out something that you keep pushing aside. You either get it, or you don't. I'm fine, either way.

Hasta,
-Sean
 
Trump is very close to pure pendulum, but he also opens up the grip and drops the elbow a bit on longer strokes to be able to keep the cue level throughout and on chin. It is not pronounced movement like some other snooker players do, but it's still there.

Yup, I'd already pointed this out in post #142.

You're right; Judd tends to flatten-out the stroke on longer strokes, e.g. specifically slower strokes. But when he amps up the power, you can see him pinning the elbow ("almost" perfect, like you say), snapping the biceps muscle closed, like the spring on a mousetrap.

Higgins is an extreme opposite example, drops the elbow quite a bit during backswing to keep the cue level.
Melling, while maybe not at level of Trump and Higgins in snooker, also must have been trained in a similar manner. Yes, this technique is complex and quite unnatural to someone who has been playing for years using something different. But it undeniably works.

Of course it works -- nobody denies that. Any movement, worked on long enough, can be perfected.

Is this needed at all for regular US style pool which has bigger pockets and far more margin for error? Debatable. Probably not essential.

And considering something that I've personally harped on for a good long while, is that compared to snooker, pool lacks an industry-sanctioned syllabus. While the instructors in pool are great at what they do, each has their own syllabus and specialties in what they do. You don't have the level of sanctioned teachings and instruction in pool as you do in snooker. There are no "pool clubs" like there are snooker clubs. Yes, there are leagues (e.g. APA, TAP, VNEA, BCAPL), but they are purely competition leagues, not instruction/competition leagues.

So it's not like the student of pool "gets exposed" to teaching of proper techniques at the outset, by virtue of merely joining a pool club (which doesn't exist). Rather, the student has to *seek* pool instruction. This partly explains the reason you see the plethora of styles you see in pool, and why, over the years, champions have perfected their own movements and built their own unique styles.

Good post,
-Sean
 
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The instructor teaches a simple, repeatable movement, because it is 1.) less moving parts; 2.) easy to produce; 3.) easy to troubleshoot and diagnose problems with.

Only in severe cases, where the student is clearly wrestling with the movements of his/her stroke, will the instructor suggest the pendulum. They (all the instructors) state that.



Hasta,
-Sean[/QUOTE]

Sean,

Thanks for laying it out in such a concise manner.

If the above quotes are all that it is, then I totally get it.

1) It's less to teach 2) It's easy for the student to do. 3) It's easy to diagnose problems, which should not many since it's so easy. 4) It's only sggested & taught in severe cases.

I have never 'heard' any instructor state it as such. That may have been my problem, my mind has been open but my 'hearing' may have been faulty or it has never been said quite correctly. But... I've only been here for a little over 4 months. It has seemed to me that it has been nearly all that most instructors have promoted for almost any 'problem', 'take a lesson & learn the pendulum stroke'.

If what you suggest is true, that it is only a last resort, then I have no problem. But... if it is being taught to beginners without first finding out if they can perform a slightly less simple stroke then I would again have a problem. My reason being that the finish is contrived & less natural, in my opinion.

I feel if it were 'natural' the greats, past & present that have not had instruction in the penulum would have 'gravitated' to it rather than the J-stroke finish.

Lastly, as to inexact 'anaylogies' the stroke is nothing like a pendulum as the forearm is not a rod & does not 'swing' due do gravity as you have so aptly pointed out.

Thanks again,
& Wi sehen uns spatar (German for see you later)
 
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That this thread is laughable, especially for those of us that aren't ensnared in this madness.

Thank god for that. I shudder to think what the 'experts' around here would have done to him.

'Tis just a discussion thread, Tim. Noone's "advocating" a certain type of stroke for "championship readiness" -- we're only discussing the reasons for why a certain type of stroke is taught in the first place.

And as you can see above, in post #206, a certain party for which all this thread traffic was generated, *FINALLY* got it.

I don't think anyone would *DARE* tear down Alex Higgins stroke and try to replace it. And to suggest or infer otherwise, would simply be silly.

-Sean
 
'Tis just a discussion thread, Tim. Noone's "advocating" a certain type of stroke for "championship readiness" -- we're only discussing the reasons for why a certain type of stroke is taught in the first place.

And as you can see above, in post #206, a certain party for which all this thread traffic was generated, *FINALLY* got it.

I don't think anyone would *DARE* tear down Alex Higgins stroke and try to replace it. And to suggest or infer otherwise, would simply be silly.

-Sean

Sean,

I *FINALLY* got it, only because that is the first time I've heard it stated the way you stated it & I only 'got it' if what you stated is true.

I wish someone else would have stated it as such a long time ago. It would have saved 'us' alot of typing. I especially would have aprreciated it, as I am a two(2) finger banger with no formal typing instruction.:wink:

Thanks again,
 
Sean...He still doesn't "get it", because he apparently believes that we teach the pendulum stroke as a "last resort"...which is spectacularly WRONG!

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Mr. Lee,

That's what Sean said & that's why I qualified my 'I get it'.

What about my invitation? Please explain it & the benefits compared to the 'piston' J-Stroke, other than it being more simple to teach & diagnose.

Why is it better, quality wise? I am open minded about it as is evidenced by acceptance per Sean's explanantion, which you now say is incorrect.

What do I not get? It is simple. I get it. I just feel that the prescribed finish is contrived & not natural. If not so the talented better players, Champions past & present, that have not been instructed in it would have 'greavitated' to it instead of the J-Stroke as most of them did.

I'm asking for help in 'getting it'. I probably really do 'get it', I'm not nieve & I'm not referring to the stroke. I understand your 'boon' comment earlier.

I'm offering you an opportunity to convice me that the 'pendulum' stroke is better qualitatively, either in the open forum or via PM if you would prefer.

I had acccepted it per Sean's explanation, but your 'dig' has thrown it into question again. Apparently Sean does not 'get it' either, as the last resort that all instructors have said, is obviously incorrect as it is 'spectacularly WRONG!'

I'll leave it for the general public decide per your response.

Clarification: Sean said, 'only in severe cases' not 'last resort'. That was my take on his phrase. 'Last resort' were not Sean's words.
 
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Mr. Lee,

That's what Sean said & that's why I qualified my 'I get it'.

What about my invitation? Please explain it & the benefits compared to the 'piston' J-Stroke, other than it being more simple to teach & diagnose.

Why is it better, quality wise? I am open minded about it as is eveidence by acceptance per Sean's explanantion, which you now say is incorrect.

What do I not get? It is simple. I get it. I just feel that the prescribed finish is contrived & not natural. If not so the talented better players, Champions past & present, that have not been instructed in it would have 'greavitated' to it instead of the J-Stroke as most of them did.

I'm asking for help in 'getting it'. I probably really do 'get it', I'm not nieve & I'm not referring to the stroke. I understand your 'boon' comment earlier.

I'm offering you an opportunity to convice me that the 'pendulum' stroke is better qualitatively, either in the open forum or via PM if you would prefer.

I had acccepted it per Sean's explanation, but your 'dig' has thrown it into question again. Apparently Sean does not 'get it' either, as the last resort that all instructors have said, is obviously incorrect as it is 'spectacularly WRONG!'

I'll leave it for the general public decide per your response.

His views on how to stand at the table will tell the public all they need to know.
 
Sean...He still doesn't "get it", because he apparently believes that we teach the pendulum stroke as a "last resort"...which is spectacularly WRONG!

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

Hi Scott:

<sigh>, I have to agree. Now he's sticking words and phrases in there, to boost his own interpretation, like the phrase "last resort" -- which I clearly didn't say or use.

But like I said, I'm done. No more La Brea Tar Pit for me. ;)
-Sean
 
-- Only in severe cases, where the student is clearly wrestling with the movements of his/her stroke, will the instructor suggest the pendulum. They (all the instructors) state that.

Hasta,
-Sean

Sean,

I appologize.

Apparently, I misinterpreted your statement.

I related, your, 'only in severe cases' to my, 'last resort'. I did mean not to attempt to put words in your mouth.

Please accept my apology.

Sincerely,
 
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Point was he does many things "wrong" and many unique things, but he was sublime

Please understand that if what someone is doing, is working just fine for them, it is not "wrong". Different styles for different folks. But, if what they are doing, is NOT working too well for them.......then it's time to start looking at the basics.
 
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