What's Good About A Good Stroke?

dr_dave said:
What is vital is that the elbow be at the same place when the cue tip hits the balls as it was at cue ball address. The best (more consistent and accurate) way to do this for most people is to keep the elbow still during the backstroke and forward stroke into the ball. It is also recommended that the forearm be perpendicular to the cue at CB address (as it is with most good players), but if the grip is slightly forward or backward from this position, it won't have a significant effect.

Regards,
Dave
Click to expand...

Thanks Dave.

So.. is this the jist? If one returns the tip to the desired spot on the CB then the differential becomes that which is forward of the contact point, the path of the tip thru the CB's initial resting point from first contact to disconnect of contact, in time somewhere from approximately 1/1000 to maybe 2/1000 of a second (soft tip). The only time in contact, therefore of most importance.

The prescribed follow through of the pendulum stroke dictates that the hand & butt end of the cue rise on the foward side of the pendulum which results in the tip moving in a downward arc as it moves through the CB's initial resting point.

The J stroke follow through, sends the tip in more of a straight line vector through the CB's initial resting point as the elbow drops, keeping the butt end more in line with the vector at contact.

That's how I see it.

I understand your point & that of others in reference to 'most' & 'some' people with regard to repeatability. I'm not concerned with more simple vs less simple. I'm just trying to understand the actual geometry of the tip's path while in contact with the CB. ('through the ball')

Thanks again for all of your time & effort, past, present, & in the future. It is appreciated & not taken for granted by many.
 
Last edited:
Because the cue tip is in contact with the CB for such a short amount of time and over such a short distance, all that really matters is what the cue is doing just as the tip hits the CB (for more info, see cue tip contact time). Whether one has a pendulum follow through or a elbow-drop "J" or "piston" follow through has no impact on the outcome of the shot because the CB is already gone before any real follow through takes place (for more info, see follow through). The different stroke types can feel very different, but if the pendulum motion into the ball is the same in each case, the outcome of the shot will also be the same (regardless of the follow through type).

Thank you for the supportive words.

Regards,
Dave

ENGLISH! said:
Thanks Dave.

So.. is this the jist? If one returns the tip to the desired spot on the CB then the differential becomes that which is forward of the contact point, the path of the tip thru the CB's initial resting point from first contact to disconnect of contact, in time somewhere from approximately 1/1000 to maybe 2/1000 of a second (soft tip). The only time in contact, therefore of most importance.

The prescribed follow through of the pendulum stroke dictates that the hand & butt end of the cue rise on the foward side of the pendulum which results in the tip moving in a downward arc as it moves through the CB's initial resting point.

The J stroke follow through, sends the tip in more of a straight line vector through the CB's initial resting point as the elbow drops, keeping the butt end more in line with the vector at contact.

That's how I see it.

I understand your point & that of others in reference to 'most' & 'some' people with regard to repeatability. I'm not concerned with more simple vs less simple. I'm just trying to understand the actual geometry of the tip's path while in contact with the CB. ('through the ball')

Thanks again for all of your time & effort, past, present, & in the future. It is appreciated & not taken for granted by many.
Click to expand...
 
dr_dave said:
Because the cue tip is in contact with the CB for such a short amount of time and over such a short distance, all that really matters is what the cue is doing just as the tip hits the CB

Whether one has a pendulum follow through or a elbow-drop "J" or "piston" follow through has no impact on the outcome of the shot because the CB is already gone before any real follow through takes place
Click to expand...

So, it isn't possible to increase the contact time (and potentially increase the magnitude of the impulse) by following through with an accelerating stroke?
 
Dave,

So, are you saying that it does not matter if it is arcing downward (or upward) or vectoring in a staright line while it is in contact with the ball for that short period of time?

I'm not a scientist, but I thought every action has a reaction & different actions have different reactions.

Is there an assumptive perameter you are invoking of which I am not aware.

Sorry for dragging this out, but that explanantion is unconvincing to me.

Or..are you saying that the difference is 'negligible' in your opinion.

Regards,
 
Sloppy Pockets said:
So, it isn't possible to increase the contact time (and potentially increase the magnitude of the impulse) by following through with an accelerating stroke?
Click to expand...
First of all, what you do during the follow through (after the CB leaves the tip) has absolutely no effect on the CB. I'll assume you were referring instead to stroke acceleration into the ball before and during tip contact. Acceleration before contact certainly has a large effect on the speed of the shot. With more acceleration, the cue will have more speed at tip contact. However, what you do during the brief contact time has no effect, practically speaking. All that really matters is what you do with the cue before CB contact. Now, the cue speed, cue angle, and tip position can vary a lot with the type of stroke into the ball, based on how you accelerate and whether or not you drop your elbow before cue ball contact.

For much more info on this and related topics, see all of the info, including and supporting links here:

Regards,
Dave
 
TheThaiger said:
No - minimal to non-existent.
Click to expand...
Throw is certainly not "minimal to non-existent," on any pool equipment ... even "pro" conditions. This is easy to show with the simple experiments demonstrated in the following video:

Try them out. The effects will be there even on "pro equipment."

There are many types of shots that are not possible without throw and/or spin transfer. FYI, many are illustrated, described, and demonstrated here:
Pros sometimes use shots like these, so the effects are most certainly real.

Regards,
Dave
 
Accelleration?

This may be an appropriate question.

From the same 'pendulum' set up position, is it possible to generate or continue more accleration more efficiently if the elbow drops exactly upon contact & extends the hand more along the vector line than it would be with the normal pendulum 'follow through' where the hand raises to the chest area causing the tip to arc downward & stop shorter than that of the J stroke?

Your thoughts Dave?

Best Regards,
 
Seigel

I think Mr. Seigel's comments might have been taken somewhat out of context. I believe he was not arguing that deflection & swerve do not exist. I believe he was saying that to him they do not exist. He does not consciously consider them when shooting & I also rarely do. The game would be much too difficult to play well if one had to intelligently calculate every geometric & physics attribute to each & every shot.

That is why CJ has made deflection his 'friend' with his 'touch' of inside. Mr. Seigel has found his way of dealing with them, 'they do not exist'.

Just my $0.02

Regards,
 
ENGLISH! said:
Dave,

So, are you saying that it does not matter if it is arcing downward (or upward) or vectoring in a staright line while it is in contact with the ball for that short period of time?

I'm not a scientist, but I thought every action has a reaction & different actions have different reactions.

Is there an assumptive perameter you are invoking of which I am not aware.

Sorry for dragging this out, but that explanantion is unconvincing to me.

Or..are you saying that the difference is 'negligible' in your opinion.

Regards,
Click to expand...

When you cradle the cue, and don't grip it tight, the cue will stay on a level straight path for at least 2" before and after contact. Contact is only about 1/8", so there is no problem whatsoever with worrying about hitting on an upstroke or downstroke unless you are dropping your elbow.

You can try and nitpick the pendulum stroke all you want to. Fact is, you have been wrong about it all along. As every instructor that has explained it to you has shown, and the videos have shown. Your insistence that it doesn't work as "advertised" is starting more and more to look like nothing more than reaching at straws to try and discredit what some people you don't care for teach in the hopes of making them look bad. I really hope that is not the case here.
 
ENGLISH! said:
From the same 'pendulum' set up position, is it possible to generate or continue more accleration more efficiently if the elbow drops exactly upon contact & extends the hand more along the vector line than it would be with the normal pendulum 'follow through' where the hand raises to the chest area causing the tip to arc downward & stop shorter than that of the J stroke?
Click to expand...
No. Again, what you do during and after tip contact has no direct practical effect on the CB.

Now, if somebody plans to follow through straight with acceleration, they might do something different during the stroke into the ball as compared to the stroke into the ball with a pendulum follow through. Therefore, the type of follow through can have an indirect effect on the shot. For more info, see:

If you have not studied these pages and supporting links yet, I encourage you (and others interested in this stuff) to do so. I think the resource pages address everything fairly well.

Regards,
Dave
 
ENGLISH! said:
Dave,

So, are you saying that it does not matter if it is arcing downward (or upward) or vectoring in a staright line while it is in contact with the ball for that short period of time?

I'm not a scientist, but I thought every action has a reaction & different actions have different reactions.

Is there an assumptive perameter you are invoking of which I am not aware.

Sorry for dragging this out, but that explanantion is unconvincing to me.

Or..are you saying that the difference is 'negligible' in your opinion.

Regards,
Click to expand...

This is an excellent post and is something I think has been overlooked. But then again, I haven't seen all the links.
 
Neil said:
When you cradle the cue, and don't grip it tight, the cue will stay on a level straight path for at least 2" before and after contact. Contact is only about 1/8", so there is no problem whatsoever with worrying about hitting on an upstroke or downstroke unless you are dropping your elbow.

You can try and nitpick the pendulum stroke all you want to. Fact is, you have been wrong about it all along. As every instructor that has explained it to you has shown, and the videos have shown. Your insistence that it doesn't work as "advertised" is starting more and more to look like nothing more than reaching at straws to try and discredit what some people you don't care for teach in the hopes of making them look bad. I really hope that is not the case here.
Click to expand...

Neil,

Thanks for the concise interjections. I have never said that it does not work. I have even said that I see some benefit to it. I am not trying to discredit anyone. My experience is my experience & I just can not recall ever seeing a great or very, very good player utilize the 'prescribed pendulum follow through'.

I am simply investigating whether it has the full potential to match what I 'feel' has been more of the standard of past & present Champions. As of yet I do not 'feel' that it has & have also not yet been convince that my 'feeling' is incorrect. I have not been 'wrong' about it as you 'tell' me, because I have not yet made a definitive decision regarding it. I have only expressed my 'feelings' & doubt that it is of Championship calibur. I think it is fine for beginners, novices, intermediates, where do I stop, I don't yet know.

I am willing to have the 'dicussions' with an open mind. Many have made their determinations & as such, their minds are made up. I would hope that if some new light were shed on the subject everyone would be open to a new evaluation.

I believe in the awesome ability of the human mind & body. Why didn't great past Champions naturally 'gravitated' to it?

I can & do think for myself. I do not simply believe something because someone 'tells' me. That ability may have saved my wife's life by not going along with what a Doctor wanted to do. Yes I even question Doctors, because sometimes their motivation is money. What that Doctor wanted to do was not logical. Some will take a calculated risk to earn more money.

If the stroke can not stand up to an investigation then it is not as sound as made out to be. If it can, it will. Are you afraid of it being investigated? If so, why? If not, let it run its' course.

When I'm convinced, I'l say so, but I'm not going to simply take the 'salesman's' word for it. He's perjudiced, even if he is correct. I hope you get my 'drift' & take no offense, as non is intended.

I will not get into a war of words with you. If that was your intent you'll be disappointed.

Regards,
 
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