What's Good About A Good Stroke?

dr_dave said:
Actually, the forearm doesn't need to be perpendicular to the cue to achieve the desired tip contact point. If you don't drop your elbow during the stroke into the cue ball, the tip will return to the exact spot on the cue ball where you were aiming, regardless of the angle of your forearm at address. That's the main advantage of a pendulum stroke into the ball.
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Very easy to learn technique, but unfortunately, you can't use it to play with a true chin contact point like pro snooker players use, i.e. sliding the cue on chin during practice strokes.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
He also says there's no such thing as throw.

pj
chgo
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Have you ever watched him play and actually looked at how he draws the ball? I can answer that: NO. Or maybe you are just oblivious and are talking through your hat.

I did take a lesson from him and he taught me the way he draws the ball.

And for the rest of you naysayers, maybe you should go observe him on YouTube instead of trying to beat down the man with nothing but theories (Dr. Dave being a perfect example).
 
whitewolf:
MIke Sigel says that getting draw by hitting the cueball 'low' is a recipie for a miscue.
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Me:
He also says there's no such thing as throw.
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whitewolf:
Have you ever watched him play and actually looked at how he draws the ball?
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He plays great, like every pro. That's the point: playing great doesn't make you right about everything.

You and lots of others here could stand to learn that lesson.

pj
chgo
 
Patrick Johnson said:
He plays great, like every pro. That's the point: playing great doesn't make you right about everything.

You and lots of others here could stand to learn that lesson.

pj
chgo
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And my point is, or should be, that if you have never tried Mike's draw method then you should not be making comments here and expect to get any respect.

And I dare say that most pros don't use the 'low and level' for drawing the ball, but that is just my opinion. Of course I am up for learning something if someone can prove otherwise.
 
Slasher said:
Considered by many to be the best potter of the ball in the game.
http://youtu.be/KZA67elaLPI

play from 2:10 and stop at 2:15 will give you a good view of the arm and cue position through the whole stroke.
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Yes yes yes. Notice how he puts draw on the ball - hitting just below center and hitting DOWN through the shot with his tip ending up on the felt.

Patrick, please take note by actually watching the video.
 
whitewolf said:
...if you have never tried Mike's draw method then you should not be making comments here and expect to get any respect.
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Do you know experienced players who haven't used "elevated draw" extensively? It's a common technique for certain shots and needs.

It's also well known that it produces more draw with less OB movement (not more draw generally) - but it's also well known (at least to the experienced players I know) that it dramatically increases the likelihood and amount of swerve.

pj
chgo
 
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whitewolf said:
Yes yes yes. Notice how he puts draw on the ball - hitting just below center and hitting DOWN through the shot with his tip ending up on the felt.

Patrick, please take note by actually watching the video.
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Please take note that the shot at 2:10-2:15 is a stun shot - and his cue is brushing the rail, not elevated any more than necessary. There's a draw shot at 5:00-5:05 with no special elevation.

And, by the way, hitting down on the CB means "center" is higher (as I think Dave already pointed out). You should really know this if you're going to try to evaluate this stuff.

pj
chgo
 
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predator said:
Very easy to learn technique, but unfortunately, you can't use it to play with a true chin contact point like pro snooker players use, i.e. sliding the cue on chin during practice strokes.
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Agreed. Snooker players who help guide the cue with their chin must use a "piston stroke," where the elbow moves up and down during the entire stroke (before and after ball contact) to keep the cue moving in a straight line (like a piston).

Many pool players use a low stance with the chin close to the cue to help provide more accurate sighting, and some even use the chin to help align the cue (e.g., by always touching the cue to the chin in the same place), but not many of them keep the cue in contact with the chin during the entire stroke like many snooker players do.

Regards,
Dave
 
whitewolf said:
And for the rest of you naysayers, maybe you should go observe him on YouTube instead of trying to beat down the man with nothing but theories (Dr. Dave being a perfect example).
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I've watched Mike playing quite a lot, and I've seen him draw the ball very well. However, that doesn't change anything about the correctness of the things he has said and written about draw and throw. I'm sorry if that offends you, but just because a pro can play doesn't mean that everything they say or write is correct or useful to most people.

Regards,
Dave
 
There are both advantages and disadvantages to dropping the elbow, as summarized here:

Actually, most top players use a pendulum stroke into the cue ball. Now, many top players do drop their elbows during the follow through (after the CB is gone), but this has no direct effect on the shot, assuming the elbow isn't dropped during the stroke into the ball. This is sometimes called a "J" stroke (pendulum into the ball, with elbow drop and straight cue motion during the follow through). For more info on the "J" stroke, see:


Regards,
Dave[/QUOTE]

Thanks Dave,

In veiwing the elbow drop resource video I noticed that all three demos show the elbow raising up slightly on the backstroke, returning & then dropping to varying degrees. Not one was stationary. So is it a mini j, a medium j & a capital J?

If the 'J' follow through as no affect, then why have so many former greats, champions past & present, & many top ametuers naturally gravitated to it?

If the elbow is not 'required' to be perfectly perpendicular and it is not what is vital to the stroke. Would not the cue ball be struck with either an accending or a descending component of the tip strike? If the forearm position is not vital to the stroke, then is the tip placement 'at' the contact point before the stroke begins what is vital? If so, that can be done with any stroke.

Your thoughts?

Inquiring minds (mine) want to know. Again just a friendly discussion from different sides of a two headed coin.
 
Dave, I think you may want to rethink that theory, the elbow does not have to drop. Watch the video as an example of a player that doesn't.
 
Patrick Johnson said:
Do you know experienced players who haven't used "elevated draw" extensively? It's a common technique for certain shots and needs.

It's also well known that it produces more draw with less OB movement - but it's also well known (at least to the experienced players I know) that it dramatically increases the likelihood and amount of swerve.
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Good summary! If people want more info and demonstrations related to this topic, check out the following resources:

Enjoy,
Dave
 
just sayin...

Slasher said:
Considered by many to be the best potter of the ball in the game.
http://youtu.be/KZA67elaLPI

play from 2:10 and stop at 2:15 will give you a good view of the arm and cue position through the whole stroke.
Click to expand...

I didn't watch it all but I did not see an elbow drop with this fellow.

Wonder what portion of the snooker players drop their elbow?
 
ENGLISH! said:
If the elbow is not 'required' to be perfectly perpendicular and it is not what is vital to the stroke. Would not the cue ball be struck with either an accending or a descending component of the tip strike? If the forearm position is not vital to the stroke, then is the tip placement 'at' the contact point before the stroke begins what is vital? If so, that can be done with any stroke.

Your thoughts?
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What is vital is that the elbow be at the same place when the cue tip hits the balls as it was at cue ball address. The best (more consistent and accurate) way to do this for most people is to keep the elbow still during the backstroke and forward stroke into the ball. It is also recommended that the forearm be perpendicular to the cue at CB address (as it is with most good players), but if the grip is slightly forward or backward from this position, it won't have a significant effect.

Regards,
Dave
 
ENGLISH! said:
dr_dave said:
There are both advantages and disadvantages to dropping the elbow, as summarized here:

Actually, most top players use a pendulum stroke into the cue ball. Now, many top players do drop their elbows during the follow through (after the CB is gone), but this has no direct effect on the shot, assuming the elbow isn't dropped during the stroke into the ball. This is sometimes called a "J" stroke (pendulum into the ball, with elbow drop and straight cue motion during the follow through). For more info on the "J" stroke, see:
Click to expand...
If the 'J' follow through as no affect, then why have so many former greats, champions past & present, & many top amateurs naturally gravitated to it?
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See the list of advantages on the elbow drop resource page. I think some of those reasons are fairly compelling.

Regards,
Dave
 
C.Milian said:
Good strokes create power with little effort. I don't have one so I can't tell you how to get it, but if you look at Yang, maybe you should apprentice for Yang and tell us how he does it.
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Agreed with above, Yang's stroke is gorgeous. I'm working on it, 7-8 yrs now, its slowly coming, not there yet. For me has to do with slow and smooth accerelation through the cb with minimal effort, with control of speed, cb, and good unconscious aim. Love it when it happens all night long...a couple times this year already!
:grin:
 
All you need to know about stroke is right here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6O0_McMPvw0&feature=related

Watch this video to the one minute mark and tell me if anyone ever spent five minutes analyzing his elbow drop, the position of his wrist or put a high speed camera on his point of contact thinking it would unlock some secret that would enable them to play as well as he does.

It is not what you do, it is the way you do it.
 
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