What's Good About A Good Stroke?

[Neil]

Neil,

Thanks for the concise interjections. I have never said that it does not work. I have even said that I see some benefit to it. I am not trying to discredit anyone. My experience is my experience & I just can not recall ever seeing a great or very, very good player utilize the 'prescribed pendulum follow through'.

I am simply investigating whether it has the full potential to match what I 'feel' has been more of the standard of past & present Champions. As of yet I do not 'feel' that it has & have also not yet been convince that my 'feeling' is incorrect. I have not been 'wrong' about it as you 'tell' me, because I have not yet made a definitive decision regarding it. I have only expressed my 'feelings' & doubt that it is of Championship calibur. I think it is fine for beginners, novices, intermediates, where do I stop, I don't yet know.

I am willing to have the 'dicussions' with an open mind. Many have made their determinations & as such, their minds are made up. I would hope that if some new light were shed on the subject everyone would be open to a new evaluation.

I believe in the awesome ability of the human mind & body. Why didn't great past Champions naturally 'gravitated' to it?

I can & do think for myself. I do not simply believe something because someone 'tells' me. That ability may have saved my wife's life by not going along with what a Doctor wanted to do. Yes I even question Doctors, because sometimes their motivation is money. What that Doctor wanted to do was not logical. Some will take a calculated risk to earn more money.

If the stroke can not stand up to an investigation then it is not as sound as made out to be. If it can, it will. Are you afraid of it being investigated? If so, why? If not, let it run its' course.

When I'm convinced, I'l say so, but I'm not going to simply take the 'salesman's' word for it. He's perjudiced, even if he is correct. I hope you get my 'drift' & take no offense, as non is intended.

I will not get into a war of words with you. If that was your intent you'll be disappointed.

Regards,

Am I afraid of it being investigated? Are you serious? Do you really think you are adding anything new to the forums? This has been talked about for years. If you just botyhered to look at Dr. Daves site, all your questions about it would be answered.

I simply made an observation, and asked you about it. The observation was obvious. You asking about dropping the elbow during the exact moment of contact. Really. Think about it for just one second. The cue is moving forward much faster than the elbow is dropping. Just how far do you think the elbow will drop while the cue travels 1/8"??

Questions like the one above is why I asked what I did. Combine your question, with getting down on others for questioning CJ, and it's easy to come to the same conclusion that I did. Are you seriously trying to use a different method, and are having trouble, or are you just being super nitpicky about it for reasons you might not even admit to yourself?? You don't need to answer that, just think about it.

And, why would not seeing a top player using it have ANY bearing on the validity of it or not?? That is nothing more than short-sighted thinking. Think about it, that's like saying that 40 years ago you never saw a top player using a jump cue, so they must not work as advertised. There must be something wrong with them. Your argument just doesn't hold any water. For several reasons.

1. Unless someone actually reads this forum, odds are they never even heard of the pendulum stroke.

2. The only way someone is going to know about the pendulum stroke is from on here, from someone that teaches it, or from someone that was taught by the above.

3.With #2 in mind, "naturals" are the ones that are most likely to make it to the top. And with that, they are the least likely to go to an instructor because they don't have much going wrong to start with.

 

[sfleinen]

Judd Trump is a good (but rare!) example of a pendulum stroke in snooker

Considered by many to be the best potter of the ball in the game.
http://youtu.be/KZA67elaLPI

play from 2:10 and stop at 2:15 will give you a good view of the arm and cue position through the whole stroke.

I didn't watch it all but I did not see an elbow drop with this fellow.

Wonder what portion of the snooker players drop their elbow?

I agree -- I didn't see any elbow drop in Judd's stroke, either. When he slowed his stroke down on that black to perform a gentle bump of that single red in the small cluster (for positional purposes), he had a very mild "scissor" stroke -- a very small "bounce" of the elbow when pulling back and stroking through -- but this was not prevalent in his power strokes.

In fact, I'm glad someone pointed this out -- Judd appears to be a rare (in pro snooker ranks, anyway) implementer of a pure pendulum stroke. On power strokes, his elbow is *pinned*.

Notice also, that Judd absorbs some of the "arc" movement of the pendulum in his wrist, via shifting the contact points of the cue in his hand, and a gentle cant of his wrist. This keeps the cue moving more in a straight piston-style movement (where he can "chin" the cue without bobbing his head), yet maintaining the simplicity of motion inherent with a pendulum stroke.

Compare Judd's cueing action to, say, Chris Melling (a very pronounced scissor-stroke), and you'll see the difference. Judd's motion is a lot simpler.

Great video, thanks for passing this on!
-Sean

 

[Slasher]

I agree -- I didn't see any elbow drop in Judd's stroke, either. When he slowed his stroke down on that black to perform a gentle bump of that single red in the small cluster (for positional purposes), he had a very mild "scissor" stroke -- a very small "bounce" of the elbow when pulling back and stroking through -- but this was not prevalent in his power strokes.

In fact, I'm glad someone pointed this out -- Judd appears to be a rare (in pro snooker ranks, anyway) implementer of a pure pendulum stroke. On power strokes, his elbow is *pinned*.

Notice also, that Judd absorbs some of the "arc" movement of the pendulum in his wrist, via shifting the contact points of the cue in his hand, and a gentle cant of his wrist. This keeps the cue moving more in a straight piston-style movement (where he can "chin" the cue without bobbing his head), yet maintaining the simplicity of motion inherent with a pendulum stroke.

Compare Judd's cueing action to, say, Chris Melling (a very pronounced scissor-stroke), and you'll see the difference. Judd's motion is a lot simpler.

Great video, thanks for passing this on!
-Sean

This is a good video for seeing the stroke from all angles, the TV tournys always cut away to the ball and have limited viewing angles.

You can also note that on extreme power shots he still stays down solid, no movement, John Higgins is another that does this well, but watch his backswing for something different http://youtu.be/Z74CJ0fF5zA

 

[ENGLISH!]

Am I afraid of it being investigated? Are you serious? Do you really think you are adding anything new to the forums? This has been talked about for years. If you just botyhered to look at Dr. Daves site, all your questions about it would be answered.

I simply made an observation, and asked you about it. The observation was obvious. You asking about dropping the elbow during the exact moment of contact. Really. Think about it for just one second. The cue is moving forward much faster than the elbow is dropping. Just how far do you think the elbow will drop while the cue travels 1/8"??

Questions like the one above is why I asked what I did. Combine your question, with getting down on others for questioning CJ, and it's easy to come to the same conclusion that I did. Are you seriously trying to use a different method, and are having trouble, or are you just being super nitpicky about it for reasons you might not even admit to yourself?? You don't need to answer that, just think about it.

And, why would not seeing a top player using it have ANY bearing on the validity of it or not?? That is nothing more than short-sighted thinking. Think about it, that's like saying that 40 years ago you never saw a top player using a jump cue, so they must not work as advertised. There must be something wrong with them. Your argument just doesn't hold any water. For several reasons.

1. Unless someone actually reads this forum, odds are they never even heard of the pendulum stroke.

2. The only way someone is going to know about the pendulum stroke is from on here, from someone that teaches it, or from someone that was taught by the above.

3.With #2 in mind, "naturals" are the ones that are most likely to make it to the top. And with that, they are the least likely to go to an instructor because they don't have much going wrong to start with.

Neil,

You're a very good word nit picking salesman with very little inherent understanding. I neither have the inclination nor wish to invest the time to nit pick thru you're misconceptions of me, my motivations, or my methods of investigation.

I tried to be civil & truthful in responding to you. I will not get into a vernacular word war with you.

Go ahead & flail away at me. I will not be responding in any attempt to communicate with you again.

Have a nice day.

 

[ENGLISH!]

Neil,

In an attempt to save you time, hereby be advised that I have just placed you on my ignore list. Congradulations. You're the only one on it.

 

[sfleinen]

Neil,

In an attempt to save you time, hereby be advised that I have just placed you on my ignore list. Congradulations. You're the only one on it.

RJ:

And you'd be missing out, my friend, for letting your emotions get the best of you. Neil is a proven knowledge resource in these parts. I don't think Neil was out of line initially, and this whole thing spiraled out of control because it was fueled (I won't say who). He is coming at this from a known-instructor perspective, while you're coming at this from your own personal-experience perspective. It looks like there was no meeting in the middle here, but rather that you each listen to the other's perspectives without letting emotion get into it.

Contrary to what you believe, the written word *can* convey emotion, and if expressed wrong / not lucidly, one can cause things to get out of hand.

Just trying to help, from an outsider's point of view,
-Sean

 

[ENGLISH!]

RJ:

And you'd be missing out, my friend, for letting your emotions get the best of you. Neil is a proven knowledge resource in these parts. I don't think Neil was out of line initially, and this whole thing spiraled out of control because it was fueled (I won't say who). He is coming at this from a known-instructor perspective, while you're coming at this from your own personal-experience perspective. It looks like there was no meeting in the middle here, but rather that you each listen to the other's perspectives without letting emotion get into it.

Contrary to what you believe, the written word *can* convey emotion, and if expressed wrong / not lucidly, one can cause things to get out of hand.

Just trying to help, from an outsider's point of view,
-Sean

Sean,

No emotions on my part. Just the better part of valor.

Regards,

 

[Neil]

Sean,

No emotions on my part. Just the better part of valor.

Regards,

Valor? LOL I asked you a question, and explained why I was asking it, and also stated that I hoped I was wrong. The fact that you got your hackles all bent out of shape, is on you, and no one else. Guess you are ticked that you got "outed".:wink:

 

[Slasher]

This thread illustrates why I keep my involvement on AZB to a minimum, an interesting thread degenerates into hair pulling, tell me is this how bar fights start? just so I don't assume it's just internet rage.

 

[sfleinen]

This thread illustrates why I keep my involvement on AZB to a minimum, an interesting thread degenerates into hair pulling, tell me is this how bar fights start? just so I don't assume it's just internet rage.

It could, if you let it.

Rather, let's get back on track. Back to our regularly-scheduled programming, I agree that Higgins is one of the best at staying down. He's got an interesting "tucked-in against his body" alignment of that back arm, though -- and an interesting hitch in the shoulder when he delivers. But it's dead-nuts accurate, and is an example that one size doesn't fit all when it comes to snooker mechanics.

-Sean

 

[Pushout]

This thread illustrates why I keep my involvement on AZB to a minimum, an interesting thread degenerates into hair pulling, tell me is this how bar fights start? just so I don't assume it's just internet rage.

You got it! I think that's got a lot to do with why a lot of us have pulled up, so to speak.

 

[Slasher]

You got it! I think that's got a lot to do with why a lot of us have pulled up, so to speak.

I didn't come on here for months and upon my return I noticed the same few names setting the tone. This is a discussion forum not an argue till your blue in the face and personal attacks forum. I don't see why the mods allow this to go on.

 

[JoeyA]

I didn't come on here for months and upon my return I noticed the same few names setting the tone. This is a discussion forum not an argue till your blue in the face and personal attacks forum. I don't see why the mods allow this to go on.

You and countless, silent, others wonder the same!

 

[naji]

This is a common misperception. You "get action" by hitting the CB where you intend to hit it - follow through simply helps you do that. A shaft mounted in a spring-powered device that could hit the CB accurately with little or no follow through would produce exactly the same spin as one stroked by Mike Massey at the same speed.

Stroke quality is determined by accuracy and consistency, not by mystical secret ingredients. Blindly spreading this myth does a disservice to developing players.

pj
chgo

Again, getting the tip to hit at desired contact point is purely arm mechanics, and ability to focus on that contact point at CB, yes with a lot of practice it becomes natural to hit low at CB or hi of which makes your arms used to that kind of hit. Stroke starts after tip contacts CB, good stroke is defined by 100% straight through, any left or right errors effects stroke accuracy, and not how high or low you hit CB, mainly because elevation of cue is not constant for every shot it changes as CB gets closer to rails.

 

[Neil]

Again, getting the tip to hit at desired contact point is purely arm mechanics, and ability to focus on that contact point at CB, yes with a lot of practice it becomes natural to hit low at CB or hi of which makes your arms used to that kind of hit. Stroke starts after tip contacts CB, good stroke is defined by 100% straight through, any left or right errors effects stroke accuracy, and not how high or low you hit CB, mainly because elevation of cue is not constant for every shot it changes as CB gets closer to rails.

Going by your definition, anyone that uses backhand english has a bad stroke. If the stroke is only after contact, what difference does it make if you have a good or bad stroke, as the cb is already gone??

 

[nobcitypool]

Going by your definition, anyone that uses backhand english has a bad stroke. If the stroke is only after contact, what difference does it make if you have a good or bad stroke, as the cb is already gone??

It matters because in many cases, the stroke didn't just become bad after the contact point but in fact is bad after the contact point because of what happened prior to the contact point. Elbow drop isn't necessarily a stroke killer as evidenced by the number of top players that do it. However, let that elbow drop start to occur before the contact or let the timing be off and the player may suddenly have some serious issues. The more fundamentally solid the stroke, the less one has to rely on precise timing to make everything work, the more likely the degree of consistency will be higher.

 

[nobcitypool]

Dave,

So, are you saying that it does not matter if it is arcing downward (or upward) or vectoring in a staright line while it is in contact with the ball for that short period of time?

I'm not a scientist, but I thought every action has a reaction & different actions have different reactions.

Is there an assumptive perameter you are invoking of which I am not aware.

Sorry for dragging this out, but that explanantion is unconvincing to me.

Or..are you saying that the difference is 'negligible' in your opinion.

Regards,

The actual law of physics is that for every action, there is an equal and opposite reaction. One of Newtons's 3 laws of motion. The actual direction of motion of the cue, at the time of contact with the CB, does matter. I believe what Dave is saying is that it is irrelevant what is done prior to point of contact or after the point of contact if the direction and speed of of the cue is the same in all cases. I believe the debate here is what type of stroke is able to deliver the cue tip to the aim point at the desired speed most consistently. One way to accomplish that is a fundamentally simple, consistent stroke. Another way is to have savant type of natural skill. Ask Lee Trevino or Jim Furyk if they needed better fundamentals. But that doesn't mean Joe Sixpack has a better chance of making the pro tour by trying to mimic their swings.

 

[Neil]

It matters because in many cases, the stroke didn't just become bad after the contact point but in fact is bad after the contact point because of what happened prior to the contact point. Elbow drop isn't necessarily a stroke killer as evidenced by the number of top players that do it. However, let that elbow drop start to occur before the contact or let the timing be off and the player may suddenly have some serious issues. The more fundamentally solid the stroke, the less one has to rely on precise timing to make everything work, the more likely the degree of consistency will be higher.

I know that, I was hoping Naji would expand on his statement. According to him, the stroke doesn't even start until after contact with the cb.

 

[Scott Lee]

No matter what somebody does...traditional or nontraditional...elbow drop or no elbow drop...what matters most is the ability to define the motions (semantically and physically) and create a process that you can train yourself to do without thinking. You think about it while you're getting ready to shoot, but when your bridge hand hits the cloth your unconscious takes over. To be able to do that on every shot, on demand, under pressure, in one try, should be the ultimate goal of anybody who wants to consider themselves a good amateur, let alone a pro-ability player. The fact is that using SPF to learn an accurate and repeatable pendulum stroke, is the easiest method for the most players, and delivers significant improvement results, with correctly applied disciplined practice.

It's not for everyone, but for people who are 1) new to the game; 2) veterans that still struggle with consistency, or who have plateaued; or 3) people who play really well one week and flat poorly the next...and have no idea why (or how to fix it), SPF can work wonders. That pretty much covers most poolplayers out there. So...in the end, all that matters, is how you choose to go about it...figure it out on your own; or take a shortcut, get some good direction and a little shove in the a$$! LOL Either way...it's up to YOU!

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

 

[nobcitypool]

I know that, I was hoping Naji would expand on his statement. According to him, the stroke doesn't even start until after contact with the cb.

Neil, sorry, I started the thread backwards and read forwards. After making the post and seeing a couple of your previous posts, I realized what you were doing.