what's the deal with 3.7oz shafts?
- Thread starter bruin70
- Start date
bruin70 said:
Can you pass along some background context for this post?
It sounds like someones favorite shaft is 3.7 oz so they decide all 3.7 oz shafts will play the same, but they will be disappointed.
Probably best to just spec assembled cue weight range and balance point,?.
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Bruin, probably because it's so tough to get good dense maple anymore. We hardly ever see any new shafts 4.0+ from any cuemaker.
Ken_4fun said:
Any one who demands a shaft that weighs at least 4 oz. and beleives that anything that weighs less is no good are just plain clueless about cues and have no idea what they really like. As soon as I hear this arguement I simply agree with everything they have to say and I get out of the conversation at the earliest opportunity possible. The taper on a shaft can easily change the weight of a shaft by more than a half ounce. Scmelke shafts probably weigh more than 5 oz. so does this make them the best? They may be the best in a bar fight or hitting a base ball but that's about it. It's a proven fact that the lighter the end of a shaft the less it will squirt so just exactky what does a heavier shaft do for performance?
Dick
That's probably the best approach Dick, cause the next demand made will probably be "and I want it to be absolutely snow white".rhncue said:
rhncue said:
you're kinda addressing the next question i was going to ask...
here's the story...a few years ago, a cuemaker i respect told me that light density shafts offer more action on the hit(livelier cb). since that time it was told to me by two more well respected cuemakers. then a cuemaker who frequents azb told me he's waiting for 3.7oz shafts to build me a cue. i have also seen a few posters advertizing a "3.7oz shaft", as if this is some kind of big deal.
all of this has led me to think that everyone seeks 3.7oz shafts as optimum shaft weight. maybe i was misinterpreting,,,,maybe everyone wanted AT LEAST 3.7 instead of AT MOST. i don't know.
let me say i've never bothered with shaft weight. i've only looked for dark reddish grain, straight, tight shaft wood, and weight was never an issue. but apparantly getting good wood nowadays is harder and harder to do, which led me to post this question.
my second question was partially answered by rhncue..ie,,is this "3.7" the weight AFTER the shaft has been tapered??? i thought this was a BEFORE taper criteria. "after" doesn't make sense because as rh says, you can taper the crap out of a shaft to drop the weight but it doesn't intrinsically alter the playability of the wood. but here's another observation,,,,my best "action-type" shafts come with 18.oz cues. assuming a cuemaker makes the same taper, and i ask for an 18oz cue with a balance around 18"(as is all my light cues), wouldn't he HAVE TO find a lighter density shaft,,,which thus accounts for their great hit? btw,,,,all my 18oz cues have no weight bolt.
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Ken_4fun said:
Definitely my preference as well.
If a cuemaker doesn't want to, that is certainly their perogative but somewhere between 4 - 4.5 feels best to me.
I have yet to have a cuemaker tell me they couldn't or wouldn't but then again, I don't stray far when it comes to who I will ask to build me a cue.
Weight of the shaft also depends on whether they have brass inserts (i.e. 5/16x14 threads) or wood to wood.
I have few cues with 4 oz shafts that hits pretty good. But my favorite shaft is on '91 SW that weighs 3.3 oz and stiffer ad more lively than me looking at Maria Sharapova
I have few cues with 4 oz shafts that hits pretty good. But my favorite shaft is on '91 SW that weighs 3.3 oz and stiffer ad more lively than me looking at Maria Sharapova
Jazz said:Weight of the shaft also depends on whether they have brass inserts (i.e. 5/16x14 threads) or wood to wood.
I have few cues with 4 oz shafts that hits pretty good. But my favorite shaft is on '91 SW that weighs 3.3 oz and stiffer ad more lively than me looking at Maria Sharapova
you don't get out of the pool hall much do you jazz....
How good are those 4 oz shafts if they have dull tap tone?
I agree with Dick 100%.
I agree with Dick 100%.
I'd love to hear some busy cuemakers, besides Meucci, say that too Koop. I'd like to develop a list of cuemakers who'd be real pleased buying shaft dowels (and possibly 1st and 5th turn shafts) that are lacking in tone but are otherwise good to outstanding with respect to clarity and straightness of grain.
Martin
Martin
Koop said:
Dick I didnt say that.
Thanks for your response but I do request a 4.0 oz shaft. I didnt say that those shafts are no good.
My experience has been better with heavier shafts. While I have had about 100 cues, I am sure you have had closer to 10X that. I tend to agree with you that taper can affect weight and that hit.
For a little more information, Showman cues was the cuemaker that told me he never builds a cue with a shaft lighter than 4.0 oz. and my request was more like a comfirmation as I was not aware of his policy when I ordered cue.
Rick Howard was the other cuemaker I eleduted to earlier, but his response was no problem.
But frankly, earlier this year I ordered a shaft from SW. Again I requested a 4.0 oz shaft. They suggested that that wasnt normal, but suggested they would get one of their heavier ones that was near the end of shaft making process. I got it and it was pretty close to the 4.0 or just a little less.
So Dick, I am sure your right, but again I am mentioning my preference. It may be misguided or whatever, but I prefer my shafts near the 4.0 oz range. You mentioned the 5.0 oz, being like a baseball bat, but to me I have had some shafts UNDER 3.0. I suppose those are more like wiffle ball bats.
Your friend in pool,
Ken
rhncue said:
Thanks for your response but I do request a 4.0 oz shaft. I didnt say that those shafts are no good.
My experience has been better with heavier shafts. While I have had about 100 cues, I am sure you have had closer to 10X that. I tend to agree with you that taper can affect weight and that hit.
For a little more information, Showman cues was the cuemaker that told me he never builds a cue with a shaft lighter than 4.0 oz. and my request was more like a comfirmation as I was not aware of his policy when I ordered cue.
Rick Howard was the other cuemaker I eleduted to earlier, but his response was no problem.
But frankly, earlier this year I ordered a shaft from SW. Again I requested a 4.0 oz shaft. They suggested that that wasnt normal, but suggested they would get one of their heavier ones that was near the end of shaft making process. I got it and it was pretty close to the 4.0 or just a little less.
So Dick, I am sure your right, but again I am mentioning my preference. It may be misguided or whatever, but I prefer my shafts near the 4.0 oz range. You mentioned the 5.0 oz, being like a baseball bat, but to me I have had some shafts UNDER 3.0. I suppose those are more like wiffle ball bats.
Your friend in pool,
Ken
I think this thread is going in the wrong direction. I do not believe that a heavier shaft is made by altering the taper whereby leaving more wood on the shaft to make a heavier shaft. A heavier (or denser) shaft is made by choosing a different piece of wood which will yield a heavier shaft; not by altering your taper. And, in my opinion, any cue maker who alters his taper to make or deceive the customer into thinking that they now have a heavier shaft is the wrong way to do business.
Let me explain: every cue maker, supposedly, has their own specific taper. What we are talking about here is using that very same 'specific taper' on every shaft BUT, you choose a heavier piece of shaft wood with your standard taper to yield the heavier shaft. You don't alter the taper and make a heavier shaft; you use a denser piece of shaft wood to yield a heavier shaft.
And, to the baby kangaroo out there; in my opinion which is based on actually seeing, hearing and showing and then showing again by using thousands of shafts - the tonal quality or "tap tone" of wood cannot be judged by the ear alone with any sort of consistency. I don't and won't go into how and why but after seeing and hearing this taping in person, our ears cannot differentiate the tonal quality with consistency. And, I can prove this in person to anyone who wants to doubt this statement. In fact, choosing shafts by tonal quality or 'tap tone' is an exercise in futility because given the opportunity to choose from thousands of shafts, then come back and choose again, you WILL choose shafts that were previously rejected.
Here's the bottom line: The cue maker can produce just about anything that the customer wants whether it's right or wrong. Many cue makers will prostitute themselves for just about any idea in order to sell a cue. With all the hype about various laminated shafts, I'm more and more convinced that if someone had enough money they could start a business by promoting and selling impregnated balsa wood as the next best and greatest new shaft design. Just take a look around today and see all the different methods of manufacturing new designs. The best and most complicated design, hands down, goes to the OB shaft design. I don't know if it plays better but anything that complicated has to be better; right!?
Meanwhile, back to the impregnated balsa wood shafts. The manufacturer could get some pros to play with their product and pay for all the charts and comparisions. While the impregnated balsa wood is a ridiculous idea, the fact remains that given sufficient resources, anyone can promote the next best widget in this business and the players will flock to the stores to purchase them. Why? Because we're in the instant gratification generation and time zone where money can solve all problems (or so they think) rather than hard work and practice.
Let me explain: every cue maker, supposedly, has their own specific taper. What we are talking about here is using that very same 'specific taper' on every shaft BUT, you choose a heavier piece of shaft wood with your standard taper to yield the heavier shaft. You don't alter the taper and make a heavier shaft; you use a denser piece of shaft wood to yield a heavier shaft.
And, to the baby kangaroo out there; in my opinion which is based on actually seeing, hearing and showing and then showing again by using thousands of shafts - the tonal quality or "tap tone" of wood cannot be judged by the ear alone with any sort of consistency. I don't and won't go into how and why but after seeing and hearing this taping in person, our ears cannot differentiate the tonal quality with consistency. And, I can prove this in person to anyone who wants to doubt this statement. In fact, choosing shafts by tonal quality or 'tap tone' is an exercise in futility because given the opportunity to choose from thousands of shafts, then come back and choose again, you WILL choose shafts that were previously rejected.
Here's the bottom line: The cue maker can produce just about anything that the customer wants whether it's right or wrong. Many cue makers will prostitute themselves for just about any idea in order to sell a cue. With all the hype about various laminated shafts, I'm more and more convinced that if someone had enough money they could start a business by promoting and selling impregnated balsa wood as the next best and greatest new shaft design. Just take a look around today and see all the different methods of manufacturing new designs. The best and most complicated design, hands down, goes to the OB shaft design. I don't know if it plays better but anything that complicated has to be better; right!?
Meanwhile, back to the impregnated balsa wood shafts. The manufacturer could get some pros to play with their product and pay for all the charts and comparisions. While the impregnated balsa wood is a ridiculous idea, the fact remains that given sufficient resources, anyone can promote the next best widget in this business and the players will flock to the stores to purchase them. Why? Because we're in the instant gratification generation and time zone where money can solve all problems (or so they think) rather than hard work and practice.
CueComponents said:
So to sum it up in the short version,
If you create questionable doubt, you just sold a product.
the higher the density, the better the wood. old growth wood is just plain better. it has more weight, better memory, and is stronger. it has less vibration, more feel, and better consistency. some cuemakers will put a heavy insert in the shaft to make it feel sturdy, when in fact it is crap.
disagree with that.
disagree with that.