What's THE Most Effective Pocket Billiard Grip for Power and Precision?
- Thread starter CJ Wiley
- Start date
Excellent first video by Fargo Billiards there. The 2nd link is my own, which needs a new version
Yes, being at your cue's pivot point helps to reduce any error further, but I'd suggest in most cases to have a longer bridge to account for 1. The effective pivot point gets longer with decreased speed and longer distances b/w CB and OB & 2. Swooping (pulling across, not just hitting straight through a non-center CB line) increases the effective pivot point.
In most cases, if the swooping is toward the IE side it won't matter so long as the CB develops natural roll, but swoops toward the OE side can have a more dramatic effect on throw variability. I'll attach a plot graph to demonstrate. Outside english is on the right side of the diagram. Each color variation indicates approx 1 inch throw variation per yard of OB travel.
This plots the variation for a medium speed half ball hit for various degrees of english compared to a medium speed natural rolling pot angle. Note that inside english, to the left, especially when rolling causes insignificant variation, while outside english rolling throws the ball about 1 inch per yard. Also note that a sliding CB has even more variation. Hence, we need to take into account how the CB is struck as well.
Note that stunning / sliding the CB with 75% OE, about a full tip, will overcut the OB at about 4 inches per yard of travel. Stunning with center ball undercuts the shot by almost 2 inches per yard of travel. Hence, the slow stun and stun with heavy outside english should be the 2 most avoided shots in pool, unless the pocket is near and the user is familiar with making the adjustment in aim.
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many people don't realize that Tiger completely changed his grip with Hank coaching
I'm glad you are still hittin them good, John. Some people will not understand how important the proper hand and wrist motion is. In golf and tennis it's common knowledge, but pool is about 20 years behind the times.
I learned my techniques from studying with Hank Haney and how he trained Tiger Woods.....many people don't realize that Tiger completely changed his grip with Hank as his coach (to create a more effective hand action similar to what I'm suggesting)........and got immediate results that led to a series of great years.
Thanks for bringing this up again CJ.
I have been using this technique (hammer stroke) since you first introduced it back in November of last year. I cant imagine ever going back to my old way.
This method puts the cue in line with the radius bone of the arm. It also allows for a tremendous amount of cue stick speed to be developed. The QB is the target (nail)
Man, its cold here..........and more snow
John
I'm glad you are still hittin them good, John. Some people will not understand how important the proper hand and wrist motion is. In golf and tennis it's common knowledge, but pool is about 20 years behind the times.
I learned my techniques from studying with Hank Haney and how he trained Tiger Woods.....many people don't realize that Tiger completely changed his grip with Hank as his coach (to create a more effective hand action similar to what I'm suggesting)........and got immediate results that led to a series of great years.
I'm not here on AZB often enough anymore to keep up with daily dramas, so when a thread that I'd previously had interest in gets moved, I often have to try to hunt it down. It was odd that I stumbled upon this thread, here.
Someone must've just assumed that this thread was a disguised sales pitch for TOI or something. Or, looked into his/her crystal ball and foretold the future of this thread, thinking it was heading in that direction anyway.
(Half kidding. )Anyway, carry on,
-Sean
which came first, the TOI or the TOI sales pitch?
I think "some people" are worried that every post I make is a sales pitch for a current, or future DVD or video. The funny thing is I would have never made the TOI video if everyone wasn't so curious about it on this forum.
So which came first, the TOI or the TOI sales pitch? That's a matter of opinion.
Wade Crane told me that Luther Lassiter was the first one he ever saw use it.....I never got the privilege of watching Luther play, but many of the old time gamblers used a variation of TOI....they just didn't call it by name.....they referred to it as "floating" the cue ball or "having the cue ball on a string".
I'm not here on AZB often enough anymore to keep up with daily dramas, so when a thread that I'd previously had interest in gets moved, I often have to try to hunt it down. It was odd that I stumbled upon this thread, here.
Someone must've just assumed that this thread was a disguised sales pitch for TOI or something. Or, looked into his/her crystal ball and foretold the future of this thread, thinking it was heading in that direction anyway.
Anyway, carry on,
-Sean
I think "some people" are worried that every post I make is a sales pitch for a current, or future DVD or video. The funny thing is I would have never made the TOI video if everyone wasn't so curious about it on this forum.
So which came first, the TOI or the TOI sales pitch? That's a matter of opinion.
Wade Crane told me that Luther Lassiter was the first one he ever saw use it.....I never got the privilege of watching Luther play, but many of the old time gamblers used a variation of TOI....they just didn't call it by name.....they referred to it as "floating" the cue ball or "having the cue ball on a string".
I think "some people" are worried that every post I make is a sales pitch for a current, or future DVD or video. The funny thing is I would have never made the TOI video if everyone wasn't so curious about it on this forum.
So which came first, the TOI or the TOI sales pitch? That's a matter of opinion.
Wade Crane told me that Luther Lassiter was the first one he ever saw use it.....I never got the privilege of watching Luther play, but many of the old time gamblers used a variation of TOI....they just didn't call it by name.....they referred to it as "floating" the cue ball or "having the cue ball on a string".
I was yanking your chain, CJ. Your initial comment gave the innuendo that I might've had something to do with the thread being moved (when I absolutely didn't), so I finger-flicked you back in kind.
But alas, you can't say I'm the only one pinging you about the non-stop sales pitches, for you seem very sensitive about it these days, even in my absence.
-Sean
Great information Colin.
Efren Reyes said that he uses a tight bridge and loose grip. He often starts with the tip of the cue at the bottom of the CB center and swipes it to the side or up with his tip to get the desired result...."spin".
Interesting to hear Efren talk about conscious swiping. For me, the judge is still out on whether or how often we ought to swipe / swoop to make shots. I do it deliberately at times when I can see that my bridge isn't perfect but it's easier to swoop a little to make the shot than to adjust my bridge.
I can't recall any instructional advice that even mentions swiping to make shots, but it is almost universally done to some degree by the elite players. The best seem to do it to a lesser degree, but it would seem to be a fine tune mechanism... albeit, usually an intuitive one.
Amazing pool shots from Efren Reyes Main Forum. ... I can easily duplicate the shot with just a force follow stroke and no ..... shot with a lil less speed and high right spin the 9 would have fell. ... The tip is swiped up across the cueball at the last second to create follow - Bottom right becomes top left.
At 2:28
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhQHRzYe-28&feature=related
At 2:28
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhQHRzYe-28&feature=related
Could the swiping or swooping you are talking about just be dynamic back-hand english, with the bridge in the correct position, rather than a correction for a poor bridge position?
[By dynamic BHE, I mean moving the back hand during the stroke (to apply english) rather than prior to the stroke.]
If you look at Efren's first shot, his bridge never moves but his stroke does at his grip - swiping BHE?
Lovely shot, it's basically a version of the karate chop, where the topsin remains on the CB after the impact with the rail. Nothing magical about it, other that judging it... he may have forseen a bump into the ball he sat behind... regardless, having some experience on this shot made it a reasonable percentage choice, though I doubt even Efren expected it to park so stoically behind the next ball.
Dynamic may be a good term to differentiate swiping BHE from straight line BHE cueing. Any kind of swipe can be adjusted for, and I do it sometimes usually due to laziness or inconvenience in shifting the bridge.
You can even apply left hand english with a rightward swipe or right hand english with a leftward swipe. I don't recommend these, unless the bridge position is constricted, but players that take up BHE often incorporate these adjustments subconsciously and as a result, their development of using and predicting BHE suffers.
As an example, pivot to 2 tips, or max right english, but swipe the cue tip leftward to 1/2 tip right english. This pushes the CB significantly to the left compared to a straight cued 1/2 tip english stroke.
If you watch John Barton's youtube on Back Hand English, he swipes all his shots, it is not the form of BHE that I recommend. There's many ways to make shots, and utilizing BHE is a relatively new way, with several variables. Having played with it for 8 years or so, I guess I have my opinions of which methods reduce the variables and increase the predictability.
Yeah, it's a form of BHE, and he did swipe a little, though, he didn't put a lot of inside on it, just a 1/4 tip I'd say.
His bridge looks like it is about 16" to me. Not knowing his cue, I'd guess the pivot point is around 10 to 12 inches, hence, it makes sense for him to swipe when using BHE, else he would have made too thin a contact.
Swiping toward the side being played increases the length of the bridge / pivot point. Swiping away from the side being played decreases the effective pivot point.
This can come in useful when you are forced to bridge at say 8", when your pivot point is 11". You can negative swipe the shot to make it go. eg. A right cut, using right inside english, you start the cue at 2 tips right and swipe to 1 tip right, such that the cue is arcing toward the CB, rather that traveling straight.
Alternatively, if you're forced to bridge at 16", but your pivot point is 11", you can swipe outward to apply the side english, and effectively increase your pivot point... which is what Efren did on that shot.
a funny {TOI} feeling inside - how's that for anchoring?
I'm not sure how you assumed it was about you, I don't think, Sean, you were involved in the other Touch of Inside threads.
Every time I say "inside" a few (not you) get a funny feeling inside - how's that for anchoring?
I was yanking your chain, CJ. Your initial comment gave the innuendo that I might've had something to do with the thread being moved (when I absolutely didn't), so I finger-flicked you back in kind.
But alas, you can't say I'm the only one pinging you about the non-stop sales pitches, for you seem very sensitive about it these days, even in my absence.
-Sean
I'm not sure how you assumed it was about you, I don't think, Sean, you were involved in the other Touch of Inside threads.
Every time I say "inside" a few (not you) get a funny feeling inside - how's that for anchoring?
I've been trying to incorporate the cocked wrist into my stroke shots the last few times I've played pool. After developing the "hammer" stroke, my finish is what Haney shows in the pic in the first post of this thread. It seems to be quite natural and has helped my power game out. Cocking the wrist increases the motion needed to finish in the hammer position.
I'll have to work on the shoulder setup later, but I do understand the "relaxed ready" power potential there. How is the shoulder loaded? Is it moved vertically, or forward/backward?
Best,
Mike
I'll have to work on the shoulder setup later, but I do understand the "relaxed ready" power potential there. How is the shoulder loaded? Is it moved vertically, or forward/backward?
Best,
Mike
You may feel like it's a "see/saw" motion
When you cock your wrist up the ideal angle is from your right hip to eye level. Then keep that wrist position and pull your right shoulder up slightly more than usual (because with the wrist cocked you'll need to for the cue to be in your normal, level position).
You may feel like it's a "see/saw" motion, where the butt of the cue goes up to make the tip go down. You will have the sensation that the shoulder is cocking up slightly with tension that's ready to be released into the stroke.
When you cock your wrist up the ideal angle is from your right hip to eye level. Then keep that wrist position and pull your right shoulder up slightly more than usual (because with the wrist cocked you'll need to for the cue to be in your normal, level position).
You may feel like it's a "see/saw" motion, where the butt of the cue goes up to make the tip go down. You will have the sensation that the shoulder is cocking up slightly with tension that's ready to be released into the stroke.
jim rempe i always thought was a great example of the shoulder tension. His mechanics were awesome in my opinion.
the game of pool at the highest levels requires a stable structure
Yes, I still remember when I was just a kid reading an article about Rempe that showed a shoulder exercise to strengthen your game...I immediately started doing it and it worked....the game of pool at the highest levels requires a stable structure and nothing unnecessary should move without purpose....this naturally requires muscle tension to achieve.
Yes, I still remember when I was just a kid reading an article about Rempe that showed a shoulder exercise to strengthen your game...I immediately started doing it and it worked....the game of pool at the highest levels requires a stable structure and nothing unnecessary should move without purpose....this naturally requires muscle tension to achieve.