Whats The Play Here?
- Thread starter DrCue'sProtege
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Snapshot9 said:
LOL don't get your panties in a bunch!
I did not say your way was wrong and I'm sure you can agree that even players on the same level have different shots and ways to get shape that may be difficult for one or the other. I can make that side pocket shot 9 out of 10 times. I run plenty of drills on it so it is second nature to me. Every player is different and not everyone plays the same patterns. I'm not saying I would play it the same every time but I am confident with the shot. As for my remark about breaking your cue down and going home, that was not directed at you
That was to anyone that can't play a stop shot
Let's not get our panties in an uproar. There are advantages and disadvantages to both sequences. Realize that the diagrams are only approximate; only DCP can know which routes are reasonable and which are not.
Let's all remember that this is an unshimmed, GCIV.
For 5 in the side:
Advantages: minimal cue ball movement means you will almost certainly get favorable position - a much higher percentage of the time compared to following. The unshimmed GCIV has monstrous side pockets. The 5 is well outside the "Betmore Line" (I'll post a diagram in a little bit) - shots outside this line into the side should be easier than a shot into the far corner, and fairly equivalent to the shot into the near corner. After you sink the 5, the rest of the run is automatic; with natural position and little cueball movement. If you have enough angle to follow forward and out, you have enough room to stun whitey at least a fair bit off the rail - you should NOT be shooting with a difficult bridge.
Disadvantages: Your shot on the 5 is your most difficult shot.
For following on the 4, to play the 5 back into the near corners:
Advantages: You don't have to shoot into a side pocket.
Disadvantages: On the big corner pockets, you might follow forward from the 4 and hit the point, and not escape the bottom rail. You could hit the 5 on the way out. You could end up short and have a bank or severe cut on the 5. You could go too far down table, ending tough on the 5. You could end up with a severe cut on the 5 (where whitey would strike the side rail before the end rail; and you may end up shooting a horrific long shot on the 6; making position on the 7 tough as well.
Overall there are a lot of disadvantages to following the 4 (as DCP found out the hard way). The runout could end up as an extravaganza of tough long shots (instead of 1 medium shot, and the rest easy). There is no way the 5 in the side should be considered tough (I get ridiculed by the pro's regularly for passing up side pocket shots into ridiculously tight pockets; on DCP's table, even that excuse is indefensible). I also think that any accomplished player should be optimistic about obtaining position by following as well.
Here are the "Betmore Lines":
Let's all remember that this is an unshimmed, GCIV.
For 5 in the side:
Advantages: minimal cue ball movement means you will almost certainly get favorable position - a much higher percentage of the time compared to following. The unshimmed GCIV has monstrous side pockets. The 5 is well outside the "Betmore Line" (I'll post a diagram in a little bit) - shots outside this line into the side should be easier than a shot into the far corner, and fairly equivalent to the shot into the near corner. After you sink the 5, the rest of the run is automatic; with natural position and little cueball movement. If you have enough angle to follow forward and out, you have enough room to stun whitey at least a fair bit off the rail - you should NOT be shooting with a difficult bridge.
Disadvantages: Your shot on the 5 is your most difficult shot.
For following on the 4, to play the 5 back into the near corners:
Advantages: You don't have to shoot into a side pocket.
Disadvantages: On the big corner pockets, you might follow forward from the 4 and hit the point, and not escape the bottom rail. You could hit the 5 on the way out. You could end up short and have a bank or severe cut on the 5. You could go too far down table, ending tough on the 5. You could end up with a severe cut on the 5 (where whitey would strike the side rail before the end rail; and you may end up shooting a horrific long shot on the 6; making position on the 7 tough as well.
Overall there are a lot of disadvantages to following the 4 (as DCP found out the hard way). The runout could end up as an extravaganza of tough long shots (instead of 1 medium shot, and the rest easy). There is no way the 5 in the side should be considered tough (I get ridiculed by the pro's regularly for passing up side pocket shots into ridiculously tight pockets; on DCP's table, even that excuse is indefensible). I also think that any accomplished player should be optimistic about obtaining position by following as well.
Here are the "Betmore Lines":
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+1Cornerman said:
I made a little video for you showing 4 different ways to play this.
(1) Two rails back (light draw + right)
(2) Two rails forward (stun / hair of top)
(3) Top left (3 different speeds)
(4) Two rails back (heavy draw + right)
I shot this 7 times in a row, with 4 different methods, and ended up with a workable shot every time. So, I would rate this as a "C" shot.
Note: My table is a Brunswick Medalist with double shimmed pockets at just under 4.5" pockets (two balls won't go in). I have Simonis 860 on it. I used hole punch reinforcements as markers. Don't mind the cat
Note 2: At the distance you indicate, the pockets play pretty big, so you can cheat tight pockets and still get good shape on this shot.
Video:
Shot 1 shows two rails back with right and a hair of draw. Good result for a shot in the same pocket. This is a high percentage shot.
Shot 2 shows a tip of top. Two rails forward for good shape in the opposite pocket. This is also a high percentage shot.
Shots 3-5 are basically the same at different speeds. These would not be my first choice, but are still high percentage. (Note: this is a pretty standard straight pool shot for getting on a spot ball from a shallow angle)
Shot 3 shows a likely "first try" with top left. You'll hit it much harder than you intended and run up table. Still workable for a shot in the same pocket.
Shot 4 is just like shot 3, but a little softer - watch how close it gets to the side pocket. This illustrates how important practicng with running english is. You'll get into trouble without a lot of practice.
Shot 5 is like shot 3, but even slower. But, the cue ball doesn't slide much after contact, so it gets pretty close to the object ball.
Shot 6 is like shot 1 - but using more draw. You really need to play to the opposite pocket, or else you will come too shallow on the 5 off the second rail. This is NOT a good shot as your first choice. But it is an option if shot 2 is not available.Shot 4 is just like shot 3, but a little softer - watch how close it gets to the side pocket. This illustrates how important practicng with running english is. You'll get into trouble without a lot of practice.
Shot 5 is like shot 3, but even slower. But, the cue ball doesn't slide much after contact, so it gets pretty close to the object ball.
Shot 7 is just shot 1 again, showing how easy it really is to get shape.
Lastly, in my opinion (and what I believe is your current skill level based on your various posts), you should disregard advice to "roll" a ball into a pocket as this is not the preferred method top players choose when shooting. You will seldom see top players electing to "roll-in" shots when a "firm" shot is an option. Although the 5 in the side is indeed an option, it should be put at the bottom of your list.
Good luck, and keep practicing!
-td
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Ok Doc. Here's the deal. You want to get out the easiest way you can, with the fewest problems, or possibilities for error.
I like Cornerman's response, and his choice #3. And I'll tell you why. Whenever possible, you want the cue ball to be rolling along the lines of position. Not across your position line. I hope that makes sense to you. If you hit the cue ball with a firm stroke, all you have to do is focus on making the four ball. You WILL get position on the five! There are really no balls that can get in the way, unless you totally flub the shot. Then you will probably miss the four as well.
Do you see what I'm talking about here? No punch strokes or perfect touch required. Just hit it and let it roll out to the middle of the table (or farther). You have a very large area for position, and you will also be able to then play shape on the six. You want to hit this ball nearly dead straight, because the cue ball will go around the five. The closer it comes to the five the better.
All the great 9-Ball players always played the simplest and easiest position possible. They would pick the shot with the least difficulty to execute, and draw position. By shooting the shot this way, you only have to focus on making the four (take dead aim my man), and your speed of stroke.
I hope this is helpful to you.
I like Cornerman's response, and his choice #3. And I'll tell you why. Whenever possible, you want the cue ball to be rolling along the lines of position. Not across your position line. I hope that makes sense to you. If you hit the cue ball with a firm stroke, all you have to do is focus on making the four ball. You WILL get position on the five! There are really no balls that can get in the way, unless you totally flub the shot. Then you will probably miss the four as well.
Do you see what I'm talking about here? No punch strokes or perfect touch required. Just hit it and let it roll out to the middle of the table (or farther). You have a very large area for position, and you will also be able to then play shape on the six. You want to hit this ball nearly dead straight, because the cue ball will go around the five. The closer it comes to the five the better.
All the great 9-Ball players always played the simplest and easiest position possible. They would pick the shot with the least difficulty to execute, and draw position. By shooting the shot this way, you only have to focus on making the four (take dead aim my man), and your speed of stroke.
I hope this is helpful to you.
you have to use the pocket, notice i didn't say cheat, you use the left third. shoot it slower on the extreme side of top left, possibly a touch more side than top. to much top and you could run the risk of running into the 4 ball.
for practice experiment with a slightly different tip offset to find the sweet spot for these type of shots. i don't see any problem with dead aim and a smooth stroke. hitting this shot hard lacks control. the side is not good, look where the 6 is and the 7. think about it and your ability.
rod
for practice experiment with a slightly different tip offset to find the sweet spot for these type of shots. i don't see any problem with dead aim and a smooth stroke. hitting this shot hard lacks control. the side is not good, look where the 6 is and the 7. think about it and your ability.
rod
I have to go with Blackjacks advice and shoot the 5 in the side. You would be perfectly in line for the 6 then the 7. It is a simple route. The more the cue ball has to travel, the more things can go wrong. However if you are confident of your speed control, the other routes are fine as well.
DCP:belmicah said:
Every response that indicates do X - is another shot that should be added to the list of things you NEED TO KNOW. I don't believe anyone is saying "this is the only way," rather people are noting what they believe is the best for them under the parameters you stated.
In order to play with the top players, you need ALL of the shots mentioned - as they will all come up at some time in your pool playing career. Rather than learn one response and move on, my recommendation is to learn 3, 4, or 5 responses to your original situation before you move to your next shot. IMO, a "learned" shot is one you can repeat 8 out of 10 times. If you can only do it 5/10 (or less) you should probably play safety during a match as the shot is above your current skill level.
Keep hitting 'em!
-td
Cornerman said:
Hey Fred, what's up?
I'm surprised at your response, Fred, especially since you're from New England and all. Don't you play straight pool anymore? I believe in Buddy Hall's dictum that you don't play position when you already have it. The side pocket is really not a problem, particularly if you play any straights at all, and all you've got to do is to bounce off the rail on the four, play the five in the side and your cueball will naturally roll up towards the center of the table for the six. Do you really think you can't do the below just about every time?
I want to emphasize, however, that there's no way that I'm going to slow roll the ball and get any closer to the rail than the four already is. I would choose another pattern rather than shoot the five in the side from the rail.
While the other patterns are certainly workable, there are more things that can go wrong, IMHO. And after all we UMASS guys can't agree on things ALL the time! What's Poolbum got to say about this one?
BTW, Snapshot, you can get action on that bet!
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Hey Rudy! I simply took the ball to my table, put it down as shown and asked myself if that's really the position I wanted to play for, sighting it to the side pocket. And the answer was, "no way."VIProfessor said:
Then, I went to see if any tapes I own have a similar shot. And what I saw was that even if the ball was slightly higher than 1 1/2 diamonds, I saw the two rail follow for the same pocket and the two rail into the opposite pocket, and never saw anyone playing it for the side pocket.
But that's a very limited sample. I'm sure someone can scour the youtube sights to show me a professional player playing for that shot in the side.
Fred
Tomorrow, I plan to set this up on the pool hall table that I play at.VIProfessor said:
In the meantime, I don't see what the big hullabaloo is over shooting the 5 into the side (that many posters here are making it out to be). There's something to be said for predictability. A stop shot on the 4 and a slow roll on the 5, allows for a very predictable pattern.
If I try the other draw/follow patterns that other posters have suggested, I run the risk of getting imperfect position on the other patterns too...and then having to compensate to get back in line.
Fred,
I have a crapload of Accustats videos, and there are a few videos of pros playing side pocket shots, but not many at all at this sort of angle.
Keep in mind that the two rail follow plays a lot easier on tight pockets, as you have more room to hit the second rail without hitting the point of the corner pocket.
The pros tend to play on tighter pockets, so the two rail follow plays easier on the tables they compete on than they do on the buckets a lot of pool halls have.
I think pros will even go so far as to risk missing the 4 in order to get a good shot on the 5. Everyone is saying how easy it is to get on the 5 in the side at a perfect angle. Meh. At the angle the 4 is going into the corner, you have to put a decent stroke on the cue ball to even get it off the rail.. How do you like it if you come mebbe 1 or 2 inches too high? Where you are slightly cutting the 4 to the right, and will leave yourself a pretty testy shot on the 5 to get back to the 6.
Then again, I used to practice the two rail follow shot a LOT. I figure if Efren likes it that much, it's something I need to be really good at. I see the point of the corner pocket being the only obstacle to getting good position from here. If you can avoid that, I think this is a easy two rail follow.
Let's make sure we realize something, though. The cue ball stopped in a window, only about an inch and a half wide, where the shots are more difficult than normal. This exact shot is not going to come up that often.
Russ
I have a crapload of Accustats videos, and there are a few videos of pros playing side pocket shots, but not many at all at this sort of angle.
Keep in mind that the two rail follow plays a lot easier on tight pockets, as you have more room to hit the second rail without hitting the point of the corner pocket.
The pros tend to play on tighter pockets, so the two rail follow plays easier on the tables they compete on than they do on the buckets a lot of pool halls have.
I think pros will even go so far as to risk missing the 4 in order to get a good shot on the 5. Everyone is saying how easy it is to get on the 5 in the side at a perfect angle. Meh. At the angle the 4 is going into the corner, you have to put a decent stroke on the cue ball to even get it off the rail.. How do you like it if you come mebbe 1 or 2 inches too high? Where you are slightly cutting the 4 to the right, and will leave yourself a pretty testy shot on the 5 to get back to the 6.
Then again, I used to practice the two rail follow shot a LOT. I figure if Efren likes it that much, it's something I need to be really good at. I see the point of the corner pocket being the only obstacle to getting good position from here. If you can avoid that, I think this is a easy two rail follow.
Let's make sure we realize something, though. The cue ball stopped in a window, only about an inch and a half wide, where the shots are more difficult than normal. This exact shot is not going to come up that often.
Russ
My vote goes to the easiest and best...
I'll go along with Cornerman on either of these choices:
2. two rails with soft inside, for 5-ball in the lower right corner
3. two rails firm with for the 5-ball in the same pocket as the 4-ball
I would probably choose #3 over #2 to be in better shape to get position for the 6-ball...and I don't even think you have to hit it that 'firm' to come out far enough...
It's a cinch either way if you can hit the ball like Boston Shorty could...
I'll go along with Cornerman on either of these choices:
2. two rails with soft inside, for 5-ball in the lower right corner
3. two rails firm with for the 5-ball in the same pocket as the 4-ball
I would probably choose #3 over #2 to be in better shape to get position for the 6-ball...and I don't even think you have to hit it that 'firm' to come out far enough...
It's a cinch either way if you can hit the ball like Boston Shorty could...
Au contraire! No pro will risk missing an easy shot on the 4 to get a good shot on the 5.Russ Chewning said:
Sometimes, you have to take what the table gives you. From the diagram, it isn't quite clear how straight the shot is on the 4 but it seems like you should be able to get the cue ball about 2-4 inches away from the rail. If you can't make the 5 in the side, then you need to practice some drills using the side pocket.
