What's the ruling
- Thread starter Neil
- Start date
Even in CB fouls only this would be considered a foul. It is interference to touch a moving ball regardless of which ball it is. BIH to the opponent.
The foul was upon the 6-ball which is the next ball in sequence. Since the ball cannot be replaced to the exact location before the foul, the shot has changed. This is unacceptable regardless of the "cue ball fouls only" rule, and is a foul under any and all circumstances.
Foul. You get ball in hand.
I'm not so sure...
First of all...the key here is 'cue ball fouls only'...
Actually first of all...I don't know why one would play this shot...
Okay...if the 6-ball did not interfere with the cue ball on its way to the carom on the 8-ball, I do not see a cue ball foul.
My ruling is there was no cue ball foul so when the shooter pockets the 8-ball, he continues shooting...and the 6-ball remains where it came to rest after hitting the cue stick.
Mike
First of all...the key here is 'cue ball fouls only'...
Actually first of all...I don't know why one would play this shot...
Okay...if the 6-ball did not interfere with the cue ball on its way to the carom on the 8-ball, I do not see a cue ball foul.
My ruling is there was no cue ball foul so when the shooter pockets the 8-ball, he continues shooting...and the 6-ball remains where it came to rest after hitting the cue stick.
Mike
i got one for you. playing an 8 ball tournament i played a guy that moved two object that were about a half diamonds distance away from each other. isnt that a ball in hand ball in hand because he made both object balls move by making them crash into each other??? 
If you move the next ball in play it should always be a foul.
One year in league a girl I was playing was shooting a shot with the rake. She was bridged over the result of her terrible break-shot, which was about a dozen balls stuck in a giant cluster over the footspot. As she shot, she tried to pull the rake out of the way to avoid the rebounding cue-ball, but in the process she pulled the head of the rake through the cluster. All dozen or so balls went flying.
At the time we didnt know about this rule (the one being discussed in this thread), so we used a more commonly known rule, which stated that the balls were to be returned to their initial position prior to being disturbed. The rules also said that she retained her position at the table, and would keep shooting.
I was furious, but my mood was lightened once I started watching her try to reposition the balls....lol, as if she could remember where they all went.
At the time we didnt know about this rule (the one being discussed in this thread), so we used a more commonly known rule, which stated that the balls were to be returned to their initial position prior to being disturbed. The rules also said that she retained her position at the table, and would keep shooting.
I was furious, but my mood was lightened once I started watching her try to reposition the balls....lol, as if she could remember where they all went.
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Well if the 6 ball did not interfere with the path of the cue ball in anyway than it is not a foul.If the original spot of the 6 ball would have in anyway obstructed the cue ball then it's a foul.Now it is up to the opponent whether to move the 6 ball where it was or leave it where it is.looking at that layout it would probly be smart to move the 6 back to the rail then leave it in the middle of the table.
World Pool-Billiard Association
World Standardized Rules
http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules#20
20. Cue ball fouls only
If there is no referee presiding over a match, it may be played using cue ball fouls only. That is, touching or moving any ball other than the cue ball would not be a foul unless it changes the outcome of the shot by either touching another ball or having any ball, including the cue ball, going through the area originally occupied by the moved ball. If this does not happen, then the opposing player must be given the option of either leaving the ball where it lies or replacing the ball as near as possible to its original position to the agreement of both players. If a player shoots without giving his opponent the option to replace, it will be a foul resulting in cue ball in hand for the opponent.
Looks like it's not a foul.
pj
chgo
World Standardized Rules
http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules#20
20. Cue ball fouls only
If there is no referee presiding over a match, it may be played using cue ball fouls only. That is, touching or moving any ball other than the cue ball would not be a foul unless it changes the outcome of the shot by either touching another ball or having any ball, including the cue ball, going through the area originally occupied by the moved ball. If this does not happen, then the opposing player must be given the option of either leaving the ball where it lies or replacing the ball as near as possible to its original position to the agreement of both players. If a player shoots without giving his opponent the option to replace, it will be a foul resulting in cue ball in hand for the opponent.
Looks like it's not a foul.
pj
chgo
Patrick Johnson said:
No you are not applying this rule correctly. Don't get hung up on the term "cueball fouls only". There are plenty of ways you can foul on a given shot that have nothing to do with the cueball. "Cueball fouls only" referrs to inadvertantly moved object balls that have no bearing on the outcome of the shot. There's "all ball fouls" where there is no such thing as inadvertantly moved balls. Tournaments play with one or the other.
In the case described above it sounds like the shooter caromoed off the 6 with the cueball. If he did and set the 6 ball in motion with the shot...touching the six ball in motion WOULD be a foul. In other words, if you set a ball in motion by the shot (ANY ball not just the cueball) and it makes contact with you or your cue...it is a foul.
In the situation above, if you are saying he did not contact the six ball with the cueball or any other ball and just accidently hit it on the follow-thru with his cue...this would be a different situation. In that case it would be accidental movement. It would not be a foul and opponent would have the option of restoration.
Regardless of the situation, it does not sound to me like there is any way the six ball should have remained where he stopped it and then he shoots again with it there.
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His cue interfered with the outcome of another ball (not the CB) that was in motion.........
FOUL.
FOUL.
I agree with others, in that "CB fouls only" does not mean you can alter the path of a moving ball without penalty. Altering the path of a moving ball accidentally should be a BIH foul, or if done on purpose, should be loss of game (as unsportsmanlike conduct).
-Andrew
-Andrew
I think you're right; it is a foul. I didn't read the rule carefully enough.
Sorry to confuse things.
pj
chgo
Patrick Johnson said:
It's no big deal. This rule gets a LOT of people. It ranks right up there with the whole 45 degree double hit debacle (which is actually quite clear but don't get me started :thumbup
. It just goes to show though how leaving a single detail out of a ref's decision making process might completely change the outcome of his ruling.As a National ref I spend 15 mins a day reviewing the rulebook. It's not required but I want to have the most thorough understanding possible. I'm sort of a rules nerd if you will.
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nathandumoulin said:
I'm not sure which rule set you were playing by. The BCA only last year made it a foul to move 2 or more balls. Other than a tournament playing all ball fouls or modified BCA rules...I think you can still move numerous balls and as long as it doesn't effect the outcome of the shot...it's not a foul (ACS,APA, etc).
Based on what you were saying here though, I'm not sure restoration would be possible.
poolboy17 said:It's no big deal. This rule gets a LOT of people. It ranks right up there with the whole 45 degree double hit debacle (which is actually quite clear but don't get me started :thumbup
As a National ref I spend 15 mins a day reviewing the rulebook. It's not required but I want to have the most thorough understanding possible. I'm sort of a rules nerd if you will.
As a player, I think it's equally important to read the rules all the time. Interpretation is HUGE and after a while, it's easy to forget what's written and what's assumed. I hope one day there's a more comprehensive interpretation of the rules of pool. Every year there are rule changes, rewordings, amendments. It gets to a point where it's important to have an understanding of what's currently written and what was written before.
Actually, the rule as stated from the WPA rulebook does cover this.
World Pool-Billiard Association
World Standardized Rules
http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules#20
20. Cue ball fouls only
If there is no referee presiding over a match, it may be played using cue ball fouls only. That is, touching or moving any ball other than the cue ball would not be a foul unless it changes the outcome of the shot by either touching another ball or having any ball, including the cue ball, going through the area originally occupied by the moved ball. If this does not happen, then the opposing player must be given the option of either leaving the ball where it lies or replacing the ball as near as possible to its original position to the agreement of both players. If a player shoots without giving his opponent the option to replace, it will be a foul resulting in cue ball in hand for the opponent.
When the six hit the side of the cue, it bounced back into the area it previously occupied, and therefore did change the outcome of the shot. Although it is not technically in the spirit of the rule as far as the possibility of having another ball come into the area that the ball was supposed to have been in.
Now, here is another way to handle it. If your opponent does not agreee it is a foul (being a rather bad sportsman, I would say), then you take the option to replace the 6 ball where you "think" it was.
In the middle of the table at the worst possible angle.
Just kidding, just kidding. I would simply stick to my guns and tell my opponent, "Hey, I know it is cue ball fouls, but you changed the outcome of the shot. It's a foul. It's ALWAYS a foul when you change the outcome of the shot and the ball can't be replaced."
Rss
World Pool-Billiard Association
World Standardized Rules
http://www.wpa-pool.com/index.asp?content=rules#20
20. Cue ball fouls only
If there is no referee presiding over a match, it may be played using cue ball fouls only. That is, touching or moving any ball other than the cue ball would not be a foul unless it changes the outcome of the shot by either touching another ball or having any ball, including the cue ball, going through the area originally occupied by the moved ball. If this does not happen, then the opposing player must be given the option of either leaving the ball where it lies or replacing the ball as near as possible to its original position to the agreement of both players. If a player shoots without giving his opponent the option to replace, it will be a foul resulting in cue ball in hand for the opponent.
When the six hit the side of the cue, it bounced back into the area it previously occupied, and therefore did change the outcome of the shot. Although it is not technically in the spirit of the rule as far as the possibility of having another ball come into the area that the ball was supposed to have been in.
Now, here is another way to handle it. If your opponent does not agreee it is a foul (being a rather bad sportsman, I would say), then you take the option to replace the 6 ball where you "think" it was.
In the middle of the table at the worst possible angle.
Just kidding, just kidding. I would simply stick to my guns and tell my opponent, "Hey, I know it is cue ball fouls, but you changed the outcome of the shot. It's a foul. It's ALWAYS a foul when you change the outcome of the shot and the ball can't be replaced."
Rss