What's The Ruling?

Jude Rosenstock

Jude Rosenstock

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Ok, I have a wonderful little scenario for you guys today - something that happened in NYC recently. Now, I already know what the official ruling is (thanks to a certified BCA Referee) but I won't disclose that until 5pm today. I will only provide you with the details listed below w/o any further clarification.


Game is 8-ball

Our player has Ball-In-Hand and has decided to place the cue-ball at the lip of the corner pocket. He gets down on his shot, realizes the cue-ball needs further adjusting and proceeds to adjust with the side of his cue (considered legal). However, in doing so, he accidentally knocks the cue-ball into the corner pocket.


A. What is your call under BCA Rules
B. What is your call under APA Rules
C. If your calls are different, do you agree with this difference and why?

BCA Rules:
http://www.bca-pool.com/play/
APA Rules:
http://www.poolplayers.com/8-9-ball-Rules.pdf
 
Im too tired to read the rules but id call it a scratch. He caused it to go in there.
 
Last edited:
Jude Rosenstock said:
Ok, I have a wonderful little scenario for you guys today - something that happened in NYC recently. Now, I already know what the official ruling is (thanks to a certified BCA Referee) but I won't disclose that until 5pm today. I will only provide you with the details listed below w/o any further clarification.


Game is 8-ball

Our player has Ball-In-Hand and has decided to place the cue-ball at the lip of the corner pocket. He gets down on his shot, realizes the cue-ball needs further adjusting and proceeds to adjust with the side of his cue (considered legal). However, in doing so, he accidentally knocks the cue-ball into the corner pocket.


A. What is your call under BCA Rules
B. What is your call under APA Rules
C. If your calls are different, do you agree with this difference and why?

BCA Rules:
http://www.bca-pool.com/play/
APA Rules:
http://www.poolplayers.com/8-9-ball-Rules.pdf
Click to expand...
A. Not sure - but I believe per BCA rules that the only thing which ends BIH is striking the CB with a normal stroke. Therefore, it's still BIH and no foul.
B. It's a foul according to one rule (it's a foul anytime the CB finds a pocket) and not a foul according to another (it's not a foul unless the player is actually stroking the CB). Personally, I would rule that it isn't a foul.
C. Both rules sets are a little vague and I think open to interpretation.

-djb
 
I also don't want to read through the rules, but my first thought is that he hasn't taken a shot, so the cue ball is still "in hand" and he can start over.
 
A. Not a foul. The only foul mentioned while having the cue ball in hand is touching other balls with the cue ball... and that is not the case here. In this case, the player is allowed to recover the cue ball from the pocket/return... and position it again for his/her shot.

B. It is a foul... BIH to opponent... because of the rule at the top of p. 6... it is BIH to opponent when... "Anytime the cue ball goes in a pocket... "

C. I believe that the rules should be the same... and I favor the BCA version.

Another example of where the APA rules don't make sense to me is... it would be a foul if I accidently dropped the cue ball onto the floor while I had BIH... which seems ridiculous to me... but apparently that's the rule in APA. :eek:
 
Jude Rosenstock said:
Ok, I have a wonderful little scenario for you guys today - something that happened in NYC recently. Now, I already know what the official ruling is (thanks to a certified BCA Referee) but I won't disclose that until 5pm today. I will only provide you with the details listed below w/o any further clarification.


Game is 8-ball

Our player has Ball-In-Hand and has decided to place the cue-ball at the lip of the corner pocket. He gets down on his shot, realizes the cue-ball needs further adjusting and proceeds to adjust with the side of his cue (considered legal). However, in doing so, he accidentally knocks the cue-ball into the corner pocket.


A. What is your call under BCA Rules
B. What is your call under APA Rules
C. If your calls are different, do you agree with this difference and why?

BCA Rules:
http://www.bca-pool.com/play/
APA Rules:
http://www.poolplayers.com/8-9-ball-Rules.pdf
Click to expand...

From what I can gather, it seems that both BCA and APA rules establish that outside of accidently touching an object ball while placing the cue ball, it is impossible to commit a foul with ball in hand until you actually contact the cue ball with a stroking motion. Thus, in the scenario you describe, there was no foul.
 
Last edited:
Jude Rosenstock said:
A. What is your call under BCA Rules
B. What is your call under APA Rules
C. If your calls are different, do you agree with this difference and why?
Click to expand...


Regardless of the technical ruling, social etiquette mandates that the shooter owes everyone a round of drinks!
 
VIProfessor said:
From what I can gather, it seems that both BCA and APA rules establish that outside of accidently touching an object ball while placing the cue ball, it is impossible to commit a foul with ball in hand until you actually contact the cue ball with a stroking motion. Thus, in the scenario you describe, there was no foul.
Click to expand...

My memory is that someone considers it a foul if you drop the OB in a pocket with BIH. My memory sucks though.
 
cigardave said:
**SNIP**

B. It is a foul... BIH to opponent... because of the rule at the top of p. 6... it is BIH to opponent when... "Anytime the cue ball goes in a pocket... "
**SNIP**
Click to expand...
What about this on p.5: "A foul may be called only if the player fouls while actually stroking the cue ball" specifically referring to BIH?

It looks like both of these statements may apply here....

-djb <-- waiting for 5pm
 
I think the correct ruling is that the shot was not a foul. Difficult to make a foul here without taking the shot first. Similar situation would happen if the player would be cleaning the cueball and then accidentally drops it on the floor. The cueball touched an area outside the official playing area, but I still wouldn't call a foul there.

No, I'm not touching the APA rules with a 10' pole here... :rolleyes:
 
No foul, similar to person accidentally dropping cue ball on floor, or tossing in air, and lacking hand/eye coordination drops it in pocket. I tend to bounce the cueball back and forth while setting up for the break, it's fallen sometimes in the pocket, is that a scratch? He was just clumsy. BIH stops after stroking cueball with tip of the stick, not the ferrule, shaft, finger, tongue, etc.

My question is, what shot did he have in 8-ball that would require him to place the cueball sooo close to the edge of the pocket?
 
Once the cue ball has been placed on the table, it is in play. In a pro tournament, this would be called a foul. Of course we all know that in the esteemed wisdom of the BCA rules committee, many old (and good) rules have been changed. When they decided that you didn't win if you made the eight on the break, they lost me forever. One of the hardest things to do in pool is make the eight on the break. So why penalize someone who makes it. HELLO BCA!!
 
jay helfert said:
Once the cue ball has been placed on the table, it is in play. In a pro tournament, this would be called a foul.
Click to expand...

I don't think so. If you place the cueball on the table, what difference does it make ruleswise ? You are able to pick it up again of course and move it. There is no rule which says that if you put the cueball on the bed of the table, it is "in play".

Only thing you are not allowed to do is to use the cueball as a measurement device to figure out for instance if there's enough room between an object ball and a cushion.

And I'm under the impression that BCA uses WPA rules, am I right ?
 
jay helfert said:
Once the cue ball has been placed on the table, it is in play.
Click to expand...

Say what??? what resource is that from?

BTW, weren't we supposed to have the verdict at 5pm????
 
tiptoety said:
Say what??? what resource is that from?

BTW, weren't we supposed to have the verdict at 5pm????
Click to expand...
I believe it is from "Jay's Own Rules." So far as I know, those are different from the official rules for most tournaments.

I recall one tournament when Allen Hopkins had ball in hand. He put the cue ball down for a shot and took some warm-ups and decided he better shoot something else. He picked the cue ball up and set it up for another shot. The idiot ref called a foul, saying that Hopkins had lost the ability to reposition the cue ball when he got down on the shot. I don't remember how the "earnest conversation" came out, but I don't think that ref should have been reffing.
 
All i can say is that if i scratch with bih and my tip never touched the cb then im callin a foul on myself! And callin a cab cause im definately to drunk to drive!
 
You have to play it as it lies. I hope you've practiced your "out of the pocket" shots.
 
Bob Jewett said:
I believe it is from "Jay's Own Rules." So far as I know, those are different from the official rules for most tournaments.

I recall one tournament when Allen Hopkins had ball in hand. He put the cue ball down for a shot and took some warm-ups and decided he better shoot something else. He picked the cue ball up and set it up for another shot. The idiot ref called a foul, saying that Hopkins had lost the ability to reposition the cue ball when he got down on the shot. I don't remember how the "earnest conversation" came out, but I don't think that ref should have been reffing.
Click to expand...

I hope everyone can see the point here. If a ref makes a call on national television, that doesn't automatically mean, that the call was absolutely correct ;)
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top