What's with all these pin types for cue joints?

slach

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I'm pretty confident that in a blind fold test nobody can tell one joint from another, correct me if I'm wrong. Are some really better than another?

It'd be so nice if cue makers (the production and custom people) could just standardize on a joint. So it goes, you like my butt you need my shaft, and visa-versa.

Hey, I don't mind if it takes me 2 or 5 seconds to screw in/out my shaft. But I'd really like to pair up a nice shaft with a nice butt without a steaming pile of nonsense.

Will/Ain't gonna happen? Why?
 

middleofnowhere

Registered
I'm pretty confident that in a blind fold test nobody can tell one joint from another, correct me if I'm wrong. Are some really better than another?

It'd be so nice if cue makers (the production and custom people) could just standardize on a joint. So it goes, you like my butt you need my shaft, and visa-versa.

Hey, I don't mind if it takes me 2 or 5 seconds to screw in/out my shaft. But I'd really like to pair up a nice shaft with a nice butt without a steaming pile of nonsense.

Will/Ain't gonna happen? Why?
I can tell a steel joint cue from a flat faced Ivory or phenolic joint cue in just a few hits
 

nsafellow

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
I think the OP is asking about pin types not the collar type

He just goes from asking about pins and then calling them joints

It is a good question but sort of like asking why a Ford over a Chevy
 

muskyed

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
For me, this is a great post. I can understand the steel joint thing, but to me that's more the balance of the cue, and also understand that a cue maker can alter the balance, steel or not, by wood choice, coring, and other ways. So back to the pin, for the life of me I can not understand how in any way it can change the hit of a cue when you consider it's purpose is to join up the face of the shaft, with the face of the butt, and if those two faces are machined correctly, the cue feel should be transferred through the the joint facings, and the pins should just be along for the ride. While I like the durability perception of a 3/8" pin, and can see there usefulness with shafts that have wood threads, can you really say that you need a 3/8" pin for a good hit? If so how do you explain other quality cue makers out there with 5/16" pins, that everyone compliments their quality of hit. Case in point, my first cue, a 1982 I think, Schon 1 of 1, cue I had built about a year after they started business. Most everyone will say how great those early Schons hit, and I have to agree, at least for the one I had, yet many will say that this or that pinned joint hits the best. Does it really, or do some just want to think that it does, because that's what they bought it for, and that cue just happens to hit somewhat better for them than another cue they have. If that is the case, is it the pin, or in reality is it the cue? I am really looking forward to everyone's opinions on this, as being someone that has various makes of cues, I feel it is absolutely crazy that I am not able to take a high-end shaft that I like, and have purchased for one brand of cue, and use it on another.
 

middleofnowhere

Registered
I think the OP is asking about pin types not the collar type

He just goes from asking about pins and then calling them joints

It is a good question but sort of like asking why a Ford over a Chevy
Yea. I remember when Stroud came out with the quick release. It seemed kind of crazy.. A 14 is pretty standard although an 18 is mechanically better.
 

middleofnowhere

Registered
For me, this is a great post. I can understand the steel joint thing, but to me that's more the balance of the cue, and also understand that a cue maker can alter the balance, steel or not, by wood choice, coring, and other ways. So back to the pin, for the life of me I can not understand how in any way it can change the hit of a cue when you consider it's purpose is to join up the face of the shaft, with the face of the butt, and if those two faces are machined correctly, the cue feel should be transferred through the the joint facings, and the pins should just be along for the ride. While I like the durability perception of a 3/8" pin, and can see there usefulness with shafts that have wood threads, can you really say that you need a 3/8" pin for a good hit? If so how do you explain other quality cue makers out there with 5/16" pins, that everyone compliments their quality of hit. Case in point, my first cue, a 1982 I think, Schon 1 of 1, cue I had built about a year after they started business. Most everyone will say how great those early Schons hit, and I have to agree, at least for the one I had, yet many will say that this or that pinned joint hits the best. Does it really, or do some just want to think that it does, because that's what they bought it for, and that cue just happens to hit somewhat better for them than another cue they have. If that is the case, is it the pin, or in reality is it the cue? I am really looking forward to everyone's opinions on this, as being someone that has various makes of cues, I feel it is absolutely crazy that I am not able to take a high-end shaft that I like, and have purchased for one brand of cue, and use it on another.
Years ago I saw a cue Lassiter had from Martin. I had to have one. I got one with an ivory joint. In have never really played with anything different since. Except for a Balabushka every cue I have ordered was a flat faced joint either phenolic or ivory.
 

hang-the-9

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I played with Predator cues with the same model shaft with a unilock and a radial pin, there was a clear difference in hit feel between the two joints. Of course there are other differences with the cue than the pin, I don't think anyone has done an A/B comparison with a number of cues using the exact same cue aside from the pin type. Usually a smaller pin has a metal joint and a larger pin has a flat face wood to wood or similar design, which does cause a difference in hit.
 

kling&allen

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Taps are expensive when you are starting out. I also assume some of the pins are cheaper to tool and mass produce.
 

muskyed

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Alot of people seem to prefer the radial. If one pin is so preferred, why is it that cue manufactures haven't all adopted one style of pin at this point, if that style is truly superior? Take Mezz for an example, depending on the cue you buy, they come standard with various pins. Hard to understand at the cost of a pin, that if one were truly superior, why they all wouldn't come standard with that one. Seems to me that they actually don't want you to have just one good shaft, but in fact really would like you to have to buy multiple shafts for the multiple cues that you have.
 

Michael Webb

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Joint screws are pretty much the right to Individualism.
Define better when more than one opinion exist???
 

straightline

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Alot of people seem to prefer the radial. If one pin is so preferred, why is it that cue manufactures haven't all adopted one style of pin at this point, if that style is truly superior? Take Mezz for an example, depending on the cue you buy, they come standard with various pins. Hard to understand at the cost of a pin, that if one were truly superior, why they all wouldn't come standard with that one. Seems to me that they actually don't want you to have just one good shaft, but in fact really would like you to have to buy multiple shafts for the multiple cues that you have.
Proprietary is brand/quality control. Don't know if that actually works except for the captive clientele.
 

mikemosconi

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I would doubt that the joint PIN has anything to do with a cue hit or feel unless it is so heavy as to alter the balance of a cue dramatically to affect the FEEL of a cue, The PIN itself has nothing to do with the hit, IMO.
 

RickLafayette

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Why do some cars have the gas tank filler on the port side and others on the starboard side? Why do some cars have the wiper controls on the left side and others on the right side? Inquiring minds want to know.
Oh, the answer from the man on the mountain: "Radial pin" LOL
 

Black-Balled

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I tell you what really get me: all the different tire sizes.

I tell you what really get me: all the different bulb sizes

I tell you what really get me: all the different...
 

jimmyco

NRA4Life
Gold Member
Silver Member
Why do some cars have the gas tank filler on the port side and others on the starboard side? Why do some cars have the wiper controls on the left side and others on the right side? Inquiring minds want to know.
Depends on what side the exhaust exits on, Matey. Except vehicles with dual exhaust, all cars' fuel filler is on the opposite side of the exhaust outlet.
 

fastone371

Certifiable
Silver Member
I would doubt that the joint PIN has anything to do with a cue hit or feel unless it is so heavy as to alter the balance of a cue dramatically to affect the FEEL of a cue, The PIN itself has nothing to do with the hit, IMO.
I agree with this. I also doubt that people can tell the difference in feel of different joints. There are too many differences in cues to say this is what causes this feel and that causes that feel etc.. If someone took for example 20 1 piece cues and added a variety of different joints/pins to them and an individual could tell what joint each particular cue had I would become a believer, short of that there are just too many variables.
 

fastone371

Certifiable
Silver Member
Depends on what side the exhaust exits on, Matey. Except vehicles with dual exhaust, all cars' fuel filler is on the opposite side of the exhaust outlet.
Thats just random, I just looked at a Kia in the shop and the exhaust and fuel door are both on the right. Most cars with a single exhaust outlet have the exhaust exit on the right side so if the fuel door is on the right odds are they will be on the same side. Manufacturers seem to favor the left side for fuel doors, maybe easier for the driver to line up with the fuel pump that way????
 

jimmyco

NRA4Life
Gold Member
Silver Member
Thats just random, I just looked at a Kia in the shop and the exhaust and fuel door are both on the right. Most cars with a single exhaust outlet have the exhaust exit on the right side so if the fuel door is on the right odds are they will be on the same side. Manufacturers seem to favor the left side for fuel doors, maybe easier for the driver to line up with the fuel pump that way????
Not random.

There are federal regs that address this.
Although the wording is "exhaust cannot exit immediately below the fuel fill pipe or tank", auto designers would rather not get into a gray area, easier just to keep the two on opposite sides when possible.

Cannot venture to guess about the Koreans.
 

dirtvictim

Ignore the entitled they haven't earned respect
Pin style doesn't matter as long as the lockup is tight however the only joint worth having is wood to wood.
I have spoken.
 

ShootingArts

Smorg is giving St Peter the 7!
Gold Member
Silver Member
The entirety of a builder's joint design, including pin type, helps insure that a piece of crap doesn't get screwed onto your cue butt and then people take that as "your" hit. When you play with a cue you are playing with the sum total of the cue, not just some components. I found a pretty radical difference in feel of my cue just taking the rubber bumper off of it, what I am sure most would consider the least important component of a cue!

The emergence of all of the aftermarket shafts is muddying the waters mightily but you can't hit with a cue builder's butt with an aftermarket spliced or CF shaft and then say you don't like the hit of that builder's cue. In truth, you have never hit with his cue unless you hit with his shaft, both sides of his joint, and his butt as he built it.

A cue builder is usually trying to build the best cue he knows how to build, that includes the joint and pin. Some attempt to make one part of the design do multiple things, others have multiple elements each achieving one needed goal. When you put a shaft on a butt that might happen to screw on you may be losing other design features.

At risk of stirring up those dedicated to flat faced joints, flat faced joints are an inherently flawed design. The reason is simple. Screw threads are not suitable to locate anything precisely. Take the head on an automobile engine as an example. It may have over a dozen heavy bolts holding it on the engine block. If the bolts were adequate to locate the head precisely it would not have the two dowels or hollow pins that precisely locate the head on the block! Now, those with flat faced joints on a cue with one threaded connection think it is adequate to locate the joint? Depends on a person's idea of adequate I reckon.

A pin pulls the butt and shaft together. We can add a pilot to the pin, we can use modified or acme threads to make the pin locate the joint facings also. However, this isn't the role of plain threads!

There are many many ways to achieve a cue builder's goals. Every cue builder has given considerable thought to how they want to achieve those goals in their personal design. One of the major things distinguishing a cue builder from a cue maker in my opinion.

Everything from the tip to the bumper or lack of one affects the hit of a cue to a larger or lesser degree. Unless everything else is exactly the same except for one change such as the joint, they can be impossible to distinguish. A cue isn't one component but the sum of all components and all features of a design.

When all cues are finished, there is little difference in the surface fit and finish of well built cues. That doesn't mean they are all the same. The differences that don't show on the surface are one reason that the cue builder doesn't want any shaft to fit on his butt. He carefully selected a few pieces of shaft wood to go with the rest of that cue, no reason to make that easy to undo!

Hu
 
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