What's wrong with APA rules?

I've been avoiding APA threads for the last couple of years. I've already made my points and see no need to beat a dead horse. But this thread asked a specific question that should be answered.

The problem with APA rules as I see it is that they were specifically designed to make the APA more money and has a negative influence on the sport of pool in general. This is all based around the one rule, "The 23 Rule", which is designed to make teams split up and form more new teams. If you do not look too close, this sounds like a good thing, but it's all about making more money for the guys in St Louis. It's a simple pyramid scheme and the folks who play are for the most part willing suckers.


Sherm
 
I think its worth mentioning that APA does offer a Masters division. You can push out in 9ball. Jump cues are allowed. Race to 7 with no handicap.
 
You know, the APA isn't for everyone, I know that APA bashing is kind of popular among some of us but really, what does it accomplish?

I play APA and I like it mainly for one reason, because there isn't any money on the table and that greatly reduces the asshole factor, and besides - I'm way to cheap.

If have money to burn I'd rather go to the Happy Ending Massage Parlor. That's a win win for everyone and I KNOW I'm going to get jerked around.

The rules lend them selves to some of the "players" here saying that the APA isn't 'real pool', on at least some level I'd have to agree, but that doesn't bother me. I see all sorts of stuff being offered up here on AZ.. legal advice, political opinions and advice, advice about cars and girls, medicine, and any number of other stuff but very few of us here are lawyers or politicians or doctors so what some of you might think of the APA carries just about as much weight as your legal advice or medical advice and lets face facts, if we were pro players we probably wouldn't be wasting time typing away on some forum about how awful the APA is,
everyone has an opinion, we just happen to disagree.

I liked the APA, it give me a place to play in a low stress environment. Some of you carry your daily work or family stress over to the table, I've seen it. That's no good for anyone.

Could the APA and the rules be better? Absolutely. But it's what it is and if you don't like it then don't play APA. Keep on bashing as you sit around the table and count the money you won or lost, but keep it to yourself.

As for many posters here on AZ, I would be pretty certain that I don't play at your level, so a handicap league is what's best for me, it allows me some success, lets me improve and it doesn't cost much, and if I do well I get to go play where the big boys play (not with the big boys..), in Las Vegas.

The sand baggers, well, what are you gonna do? Those types exist in just about every walk of life and eventually it bites them or they get bored of having to lay down all the time so they move on. Sometimes some anal - retentive will try to rule book you to death, all you can do is laugh. Do they really have so little in their lives that this is all they have so they have to rely on the rule book and throw it up in your face at every opportunity? The way I combat that is to know the rules just as well, but on league night it's usually a friendly game anyways, so just about anything, within reason, goes.

You guys that bash, you need some anger management or a pill or something. Just let it go. I, we all get it, you don't like the APA. Then don't play APA, see there - simple. Reduce that stress, learn to meditate, repeat this over and over - "The APA isn't for me and I'm better for it" just be happy that the APA is around, without the leagues I suspect that many more pool halls would be closing, then where would you be.

I imagine it would be tough on your families to have a bunch of pool players over in your basement for 10 or 12 hours standing around your table while some illegal big money game was going on. Just think, what if you were on the hook for a few thousand and the bad guy knew where you lived.

As much as you don't like it, the APA probably gives you home away from home. Where would you be without it? In front of the TV watching Vampire Diaries, sounds like fun night for any pool player.
 
cuesmith said:
I've been avoiding APA threads for the last couple of years. I've already made my points and see no need to beat a dead horse. But this thread asked a specific question that should be answered.

The problem with APA rules as I see it is that they were specifically designed to make the APA more money and has a negative influence on the sport of pool in general. This is all based around the one rule, "The 23 Rule", which is designed to make teams split up and form more new teams. If you do not look too close, this sounds like a good thing, but it's all about making more money for the guys in St Louis. It's a simple pyramid scheme and the folks who play are for the most part willing suckers.


Sherm
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Their target market is for beginner/amature players. If having more customers means making more money, they're pretty successful so far. Taking a look at the national singles event, the top bracket for 8b has about 7 times as many players as the lowest bracket. That tells me that quite a few higher level players still participate.

The only rule I'm not all that fond of is the closed break. I can deal with the rest. I don't consider the 23-rule an actual game rule. No push-out can be a pain, but being able to break well and kick well are both important parts of the game, too.

I pay $7/match to have a fun time, have somebody else organize a league, to have somebody else compile stats and to get that slim chance that I may make it to the next tournament. If I'm that concerned about a few bucks a week, I should stop drinking, stop smoking, stop driving and stop eating well. Oh, and I'd definitely drop cable tv.
 
Apa is definitely geared towards the lower level player but who cares lol I like the pressure of playing a 2 and having to make 75 balls before they make 18. I get tired of ripping wings of flys in bca leagues. Not everyone has to make pool there sole past time and life long love! Some people like playing the game and just want to get out with there friends for a night. They don't have the drive to get a lot better AND THATS OKAY! There spending money and keeping our game alive in there own small way! apa gives them a chance to compete and win without devoting there whole life to the game lol is apa perfect...no but what the hell in life is lol

I'll never understand why the guys that gamble feel the need to slam people who play leagues. I don't slam on them for gambling! However you choose to enjoy the game do it and have fun and leave other people alone to enjoy it as they choose.
 
Overall, I'm happy that the APA is able to provide an organized playing environment. It provides a weekly opportunity to enjoy playing pool with a bunch of friends against another bunch. It's basically a casual night out for a large group of people who get to personally participate in competition.

That said, the structure actually forces team captains to keep their players at a lower skill level. It is an environment that discourages player skill improvement.

I have taught several APA team members. When they actually improve their game, the captain actually plays them fewer matches. I overheard one captain say to a student, "Why did you get better?"

I can understand the need to have a skill cap (23) for a team, but why they don't simply offer an opportunity to go over that number. For example, a 10 point penalty for each point over 23. You could put together a team with a 25 skill level, and the whole team would sacrifice 20 points taken from their score and added to the opponent team. At least this allows individual players a chance to improve their skills over the season and still stay with their team, even if they are advanced.
 
Push&Pool said:
Hi guys, I'm still fairly new to AZB and I've seen numerous times how people bash APA rules, say they suck etc. I'm not from the US&A and I can't experience the APA myself so I'd just like to hear why those rules are hated so much.
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APA rules don't suck.......... everyone that plays in the APA plays by the same rules............. It everyone plays by the same rules then the playing field is equal.............

There are people that don't like to play by the rules and those that don't think handicapped leagues are fair........... they are fair for everyone except those that expect an advantage over everyone else by their perceived fantastic ability.

Kim
 
allanpsand said:
That said, the structure actually forces team captains to keep their players at a lower skill level. It is an environment that discourages player skill improvement.

I have taught several APA team members. When they actually improve their game, the captain actually plays them fewer matches. I overheard one captain say to a student, "Why did you get better?"
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Surely you realize that not all of us are like that, right?

I'm proud that 4 of my 9-ball team members have gone up this session (with another likely before the end of the session). Two of my 8-ball players have gone up last session.

Is it gonna make it more difficult to field the team that I'd like as we go into playoffs and states, sure. But that is what is supposed to happen. Players should improve, at least to a certain level. Many of us seem to plateau at a certain level, and those folks are the ones you build your teams around, and work out the rest.

Yes, its a pain, but its not unexpected, and you'll never hear me tell someone to "not improve". And I'm certain that I'm not alone.

There are a bunch of teams that play locally, and we usually find a way for players to keep playing, even when a particular team has to shake things up. Usual attrition provides plenty of opportunities, openings on other teams from people dropping out for one reason or another.
 
I guess i have been lucky...

APA is a pool league that caters to people from all walks of life and a huge spectrum of skill levels. IMO they need to expand the skill levels from 9 to upwards of 12...there are some 9's that cant lose under this handicapping system simply because it has such a low ceiling...

There are sandbaggers, cheats, showcases of bad sportsmanship...etc but in the end its all about your own individual performance in a somewhat controlled competitive environment...its meant to be fun not professional. Most people believe going to vegas is a pipe dream. I have play for 4 sessions and am attending vegas for the second time april 25th-28th. in my first session my team won the city tournament and competed last august and i also won the 9 ball regional in march. I have had a great experience and would encourage all who have a passion or interest for pool to join

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I997 using Tapatalk 2
 
Join the Apa and find out for your self leagues are not for everyone.Here in Atlanta we have a room called Mrcues strong supporter of the apa.Reason the apa fills 20-25 tables 5 nights a week.They eat and drink where a pool room makes money.
Classic Cues out of conyers ga became popular because of all the action high stake gambling.Alot of so called pool players to good for the apa.Classic Cues is out of buisness again.Johnny Archer has a room here ask him how much he likes the apa.With out it he would soon be out of buisness to.I don't like all the rules of the apa nor the bca but I support both because they support my long time friends pool room.
 
Ken_4fun said:
Not me.

I can match up and play cheap and never have a problem. I am no big gambler, and if I sound like it then that isnt the case.

I play $5-10 a game 9 ball.
I play $10-20 a game one pocket.

We play in house leagues and ALL of the money gets paid back. Much smarter if you going to play leagues.

Ever try to match up with league player? :p

Ken
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this nit will play you 10 ball even any monday or thursday night you want on the bar tables, 10 games minimum. the other nights this nit plays leagues. :D

dont like 9 ball, dont like the slop. never play 1 pocket.

other than those stipulations this league player dont mind matching up with you. oh yea, we can play sat eve after napa league if jake aint runnin a tournament.

or we can play closed break , call your shot 8 ball, dont matter to me, just no 9 ball due to the slop or 1 pocket because i never play on the 9 footers. i know you play on both.
 
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Interesting Rule

I was talking to someone about the APA rule concerning the cue ball frozen to the next object ball in 9ball. He said it's a free shot and you can shoot away from the object ball because it's already touching and considered a good hit. Therefore, if the nine ball happens to be open you can turn around and just shoot the nine ball into a pocket and consider it a carom shot...
 
now that i got the above post outa the way about someone having a problem matching up with league nits i would like to address the topic of this thread.

it seems like most people that have an issue with the apa dont like the following rules, i will also give my opinion on each one.

slop. i had a big issue with it when i 1st joined. now i have formed the opinion that when i play lesser players that slop ball it is much like a better player spotting a lesser player a few balls or games on the wire when they match up. i still get kinda upset when a player my level resorts to slop but i try to look at it as they are getting desperate against me.

23 rule. i really dont have an issue with it but since we picked up 2 high level players we have to watch our line up, something we never had to do in my 3 years playing apa until this session.

drunks, assholes cheaters, etc etc. every league has them.

sandbaggers. every league has them. my bcapl points based money league has several obvious ones. i cant think of any in my 3 apa divisions. let me tell you how obvious. several guys have no problem putting break and runs on me or my other 2 better players, but they take 10 innings to lose 9-5 to my gf who is a honest to god apa 3 that may make 2 balls in a row on a good night.

we played a team that 3 guys put break and runs on our 3 best players, losing to my gf and her 13 year old daughter. my gf shot up from a 3 to a 6 as a result of those 3 guys letting her beat them after they won 30-0 against our 3 best players. oh yea her daughter shot up to a 5. we are talking about a kid that plays about 6 times a year.i used her because we were shorthanded. now tell me that aint some shit.

i had 1 player quit over that. me ?, i can fade it.
 
Tiddler said:
I was talking to someone about the APA rule concerning the cue ball frozen to the next object ball in 9ball. He said it's a free shot and you can shoot away from the object ball because it's already touching and considered a good hit. Therefore, if the nine ball happens to be open you can turn around and just shoot the nine ball into a pocket and consider it a carom shot...
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i can see where that would be a legal hit if the object ball moved, as long as you did not push the cueball.
 
i wanted to look up my stats before i addressed this last rule.

closed break. a lot of people dont like that rule because it makes it hard to run out. i kinda like that rule, it makes the game more challenging.

in my open break league i have 10 break and runs over 42 breaks.

i dont know how many times i broke in apa so far this year but let me use this conservative estimate. i have won 15 matches so far this session.

lets say i never won a lag but due to me having to win 4 racks we can say for sure i broke 3 times a match times 15 matches=45 breaks. i do not have a single break and run so far this session.

10 break an runs over 42 open breaks vs 0 break and runs over 45 closed breaks. yea i can see why all you serious players dont like a closed break.;)
 
Some of the hatred from some members makes me wonder if a few APA players schooled some of our AZB members in a few racks without a handicap...


The rules are pretty bad, but I don't give a damn what any of you guys really say about it. It's a night out where you get to play new people, meet new pool players, and have fun if you have a good team.

If you hate slop so much you could just give them ball in hand if you ever make an accidental ball in 8 ball.

Why ***** about the handicap so much? So us 6's and the 7s-8s are "big players" in the league. And some horribly new horribly inexperienced player is put against us that's a 2.

You're scared of handicapping why? You have to beat someone who doesn't even know what the difference between center ball and draw is in a 2-5 race.


You should win 10-2 against a player that bad if you're any decent, APA rules or not.


APA rules suck. If you're so gung-ho on being anti-APA player then just have fun with what you do.



If anyone has a better set of rules in play to draw in MORE and NEW players to the dying game we all love please suggest the changes you'd make that would suit NEW PLAYERS. I'd love to hear how slop and handicapping are a bad idea when you're trying to draw new players into the game.
 
Tiddler said:
I was talking to someone about the APA rule concerning the cue ball frozen to the next object ball in 9ball. He said it's a free shot and you can shoot away from the object ball because it's already touching and considered a good hit. Therefore, if the nine ball happens to be open you can turn around and just shoot the nine ball into a pocket and consider it a carom shot...
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As lorider put it, the object ball has to move as a result of the shot. The way I read your explanation is wrong.
 
Who wants to go to Vegas ??

If the “Vegas carrot” thing works so well for the APA, would it thrive even more if you did this?

Each player pays $7 per night to play. Vote in the league to change from APA to “in house” league. Lets say the league has 8 teams, each team with 5players.

Elect a Commissioner and two board members that the teams trust. Decide what handicapping format you want to use; ACS/BCAPL, whatever. Hire someone to compile the stats and schedules.

$35 per night per team.
$280 per night for the entire league
$4480 collected for the entire 16 week season.
$13,440 collected for three 16 week sessions played ( 1 calendar year)

Use a point system. Every time your team finishes first you get 8 points, followed by second, etc. At the end of the third session, the top two teams with the most points win a trip to Vegas. $6K for each team.

The $1400 left over is for trophies for 1st, 2nd and 3rd place each session and MVP trophy and money to the person doing the stats. And whatever is left over from there goes to an operating budget to keep a surplus for unexpected stuff. If you have less than 8 teams, then just 1st place goes to Vegas.

Thus, you sanction the league with ACS, BCAPL, or whatever, pay the initiation fee (which is the same or lower than the APA initiating fee)
Now, you can play in Vegas by finishing in first or second place of an 8 team league. No finals, no city wide, no playoffs, no “23” rule, etc.

Thus, your odds are 4-1 your team is going to Vegas at the end of the year.
I’m NOT saying this to hurt the APA, but just for the folks that really want to go to Vegas, I could envision one or two leagues in each area of the country doing this and running it themselves. It's not as hard as you think it is :)

And if any team that drops out during the year (because they are doing poorly, NO player can join again until after sitting out for a full YEAR to eliminate this from happening. (plus, I like be the “spoiler” role if my team cannot win)

A replacement team only has to pay half league fees until the year is over, and this earns them first dibs to be the permanent team come next year to play for Vegas.

So, if you really want to go to Vegas, this will get you there a lot more quickly, and your odds of 4-1 are a lot better than “a snowballs chance in hell” !

Just something to think about. And yes, there is MORE to this than what I included here, this is a "nutshell" version, so don’t slam me to hard for “forgetting this, that and the other thing”….

Again, I understand and appeciate what the APA does, and that is gets folks to pool, and that is swell. This is just for folks that really want to take it to the next level, take control of the league, and have a 4-1 chance to go to Vegas Baby !!!
 
The ACS (American Cue Sports) has a league system that has many of these features. They have a downloadable book (I helped write it) that describes how to setup a local (in-house) or regional (several halls) league.
 
All of that certainly could work, RJ.

Probably have a better chance of it working in a major population center, as opposed to a rural setting where there are only so many players available...

The problem is organizing it. Running it. Getting people to agree, on anything.

For all it's "faults", APA is in place, and has been. It runs smoothly (for the most part) without any local involvement (i.e.work). People show up, they play, they go home. Team captains have a bit more to do in getting the scoresheets out and the money to the LO, but beyond that, nothing much else to do.

There is value in having the league run for you.

There is a sense of, I don't know, security perhaps in that the league is going to run. It is a huge, national organization. In my experience, any time local people get together to do stuff, it might very well work for a while, until those people get tired of doing it, have to relocate, lose their job or it changes, or political issues in the running of it become too much.

Yes, there are issues with APA, and there are with most anything. Thats the tradeoff from the local league, in my opinion.

I'm not convinced that everyone that plays is all hung up on the Vegas trip. Yes, it sounds cool, and some folks around here have gone. (One of the players on my 8-ball team is headed out for single this week.) I'm hoping to get one of our teams there. I think that while that sounds great to folks, the majority of us see it for what it is, a chance for us to play each week, and to try and win our division. If we get through to states, great, we'll see what happens. Get to meet up with other players from around our state, as well. To be honest, actually winning the Vegas trip will become a hassle for me, and I expect for many others...though I still wanna go. :D

We had someone here try to start USAPL locally, with much better odds of going to Vegas, not 1 in 4, but 1 in 8, methinks. The system is great, at least as far as I delved into it, and most everyone that I spoke with agreed that they enjoyed it. But getting folks to come aboard wasn't as easy or simple as folks thought.

Oh well, another chapter in the AZB APA archives.... :p
 
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