What's wrong with our sport as I see it, and how to correct it.

There is an awesome livestream on right now....135 viewers,...there is no audience!

Diamonds idea of sponsoring 4 or 5 Derby type events a year around the country had real promise...too bad Tunica didn't fly. Going to Mississippi in July was ill advised.
 
I think the biggest problem with respect to viewership among Americans is the continued proliferation of the myth that tens of millions play pool here. It's only true if you include all the casual bar table eight ball players.

Almost none of the casual players play 9/10 ball and, for that reason, few are interested in watching it. For years, I went to the BCA Championships at the Riviera in Vegas, which always ran at the same time as the BCA Open 9-ball event. There were 10,000 amateurs within a hundred yards of the pro event, but very few of them ever attended the pro event. At the heart of pool's lack of viewership is the giant disconnect between the pro and amateur ranks. The pros had easy access to 10,000 amateurs, but as a group, they rarely spent any time in the amateur tournament rooms.

The amateurs don't care about the pros, in part because the pros don't play the game that the amateurs play. With just a few exceptions, the pros don't care much about the amateurs either, and this disconnect is something I've observed for decades.

The biggest issue in the game is the disconnect between the pros and the amateurs. Few amateurs play the games that the pros earn a living at, and that means that the potential viewer base is much smaller than many seem to think.
 
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vasilios said:
That is not a good argument ^

Your OP was a plan for pool - What is it ?



bill
Click to expand...

It's not? Well then who would the advertisers be if baseball teams were filled with mostly amateur and some professional players?? Would all the baseball fans still buy tickets at the prices they are to go watch a bunch of amateurs playing with a few professionals?
 
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PoolBum said:
The reason there is organized baseball is because people want to watch it.
Click to expand...

The reason is because they are ALL professional base ball players, not the weekend warriors playing��my mom loved to watch the Mariners play so much, she knew every players name by heart, and she was 81 years old before she passed away. Do you think it would be the same if from one week to the next if you didn't even know who was playing?
 
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SBC said:
There is an awesome livestream on right now....135 viewers,...there is no audience!

Diamonds idea of sponsoring 4 or 5 Derby type events a year around the country had real promise...too bad Tunica didn't fly. Going to Mississippi in July was ill advised.
Click to expand...

Wrong way to host a pro tour, way to expensive moving tables in and out, paying for tournament floor space, and guaranteeing minimum hotel room rentals, this is a broken model, Greg took a blood bath the first time he tried that.
 
sjm said:
I think the biggest problem with respect to viewership among Americans is the continued proliferation of the myth that tens of millions play pool here. It's only true if you include all the casual bar table eight ball players.

Almost none of the casual players play 9/10 ball and, for that reason, few are interested in watching it. For years, I went to the BCA Championships at the Riviera in Vegas, which always ran at the same time as the BCA Open 9-ball event. There were 10,000 amateurs within a hundred yards of the pro event, but very few of them ever attended the pro event. At the heart of pool's lack of viewership is the giant disconnect between the pro and amateur ranks. The pros had easy access to 10,000 amateurs, but as a group, they rarely spent any time in the amateur tournament rooms.

The amateurs don't care about the pros, in part because the pros don't play the game that the amateurs play. With just a few exceptions, the pros don't care much about the amateurs either, and this disconnect is something I've observed for decades.

The biggest issue in the game is the disconnect between the pros and the amateurs. Few amateurs play the games that the pros earn a living at, and that means that the potential viewer base is much smaller than many seem to think.
Click to expand...

I agree with you to an extent, I'll explain later.
 
realkingcobra said:
It's not? Well then who would the advertisers be if baseball teams were filled with mostly amateur and some professional players?? Would all the baseball fans still buy tickets at the prices they are to go watch a bunch of amateurs playing with a few professionals?
Click to expand...

T-Ball baseball draws more people than Pro Pool -

So back to the original -
What is you plan for Pro Pool to go big time -



bill
 
realkingcobra said:
It's not? Well then who would the advertisers be if baseball teams were filled with mostly amateur and some professional players?? Would all the baseball fans still buy tickets at the prices they are to go watch a bunch of amateurs playing with a few professionals?
Click to expand...

If there were a big enough demand for televised pool then there would be money to be made, and there would be corporate sponsorships, tv contracts, and an organized professional tour.
 
Ok, here's my observation on how to fix this sport. First off, money is needed to be raised to be able to be paid out to sponsor small Pro Events to start. Now everyone can run around everywhere asking business to help sponsor a small Pro Tour....OR, we work together and make a single change in this industry, that on a daily basis, will produce a sizable monthly income...without asking one single person for a dollar!! One product, and only one product in the industry needs to be switched out for another. And no one is spending any more really, they're just changing one product for another, that's the beauty of it, GLUE!

EVERY pool table manufacture, every snooker table manufacture, and every billiards table manufacturer on the planet uses a contact adhesive to install the cushions and facings in the pockets if it's a pool table. That's a TON of glue in case you haven't already figured it out....and that's just in the NEW table manufacturing end of this business. Now, take all the glue used in recovering pool tables, replacing cushions, facings....throughout the entire world in the used table market!!! They're ALREADY buying and using glue!!

Fastenal just solved my problem for world wide distribution, Slokum Chemical solved my dilemma on formulating a new adhesive to meet my requirements, and hit the nail on the head finally!!!! So we have a product that can be sold world wide, and no matter how much is sold, it'll never be enough!!

This week I get my new aerosol spray glue to test out, if it passes my test, well then, I may not be able to get most of the hacks in this country switched over to my stretch index, glue down system, BUT...at least i can sell them the spray glue they'll be using.

And since this is MY personally owned, for profit LLC, all the proceeds raised goes into my bank account, as I don't like anyone else counting my money for me, so no one elses hands can get into the cookie jar!!!!

So, with the support of all the cloth manufacturers endorsing my glue down method, and making everyone in the world buying cloth over a 90 day period, within 90 days the world switches over to buying my billiards glue. Then I'll be in charge of funding a Pro Tour.

Now, a Pro Tour, how do we go about building that?
 
sjm said:
I think the biggest problem with respect to viewership among Americans is the continued proliferation of the myth that tens of millions play pool here. It's only true if you include all the casual bar table eight ball players.

Almost none of the casual players play 9/10 ball and, for that reason, few are interested in watching it. For years, I went to the BCA Championships at the Riviera in Vegas, which always ran at the same time as the BCA Open 9-ball event. There were 10,000 amateurs within a hundred yards of the pro event, but very few of them ever attended the pro event. At the heart of pool's lack of viewership is the giant disconnect between the pro and amateur ranks. The pros had easy access to 10,000 amateurs, but as a group, they rarely spent any time in the amateur tournament rooms.

The amateurs don't care about the pros, in part because the pros don't play the game that the amateurs play. With just a few exceptions, the pros don't care much about the amateurs either, and this disconnect is something I've observed for decades.

The biggest issue in the game is the disconnect between the pros and the amateurs. Few amateurs play the games that the pros earn a living at, and that means that the potential viewer base is much smaller than many seem to think.
Click to expand...


Your observations are 100% accurate. Not sure about the conclusions though.


But let's focus on that disconnect or divide. I think divide is a better word.

In pool, there's amateurs, and then there's the pro realm. There's just about no in between. I'm not talking skill level necessarily. Talking about community and culture. You nailed it on that.


I've seen both sides, and they are radically different worlds. There's only a tiny handful of people, some of which are the types who come on this forum, who have observed or hung in each of these distinctly different realms.

Why this situation exists could be a long, speculative discussion. But it is real. I will speculate by saying simply - there's no incentives or natural reason for either group to interact with the other.

Here's the long version.

Amateurs as a whole, could care less about pro pool as it doesn't serve them in any significant way. Not even for instructional purposes in most cases. Pros could care less about amateur pool, as there's not much to be gained there for them. Practically speaking, there's no pro-pool in the USA right now RELATIVE to the size of the billiards industry (which isn't a small industry actually). Meaning that, even if the pros went completely extinct, the billiards industry and amateurs players would continue to exist.

Thus, pros are irrelevant. They really are. In the US, does anyone even care about pro darts? There's dart leagues and competitions. There's millions of casual players in bars. Pros are irrelevant there too.

The only interaction you see between pros and amateur is promotional. Much like how it is in other sports. That is, pros get sponsored by equipment manufacturers so that the amateurs who actually do follow them will buy that gear. Simple. Common stuff there. In pool, there's not much a pro has to do other than wear the logos on their shirts. Not a whole lot of actual promotion. Only the very elite sponsored by the big companies have to do a little, and it pales compared to say golfers who do a lot more with their sponsors.

But that's a minority for pool. It's hard for those of us deeply into pool to put it into perspective (we do get lost in our own world), but the majority of players and the industry aren't like us. Most players do not play with ANY of the major cue brands. Most players, if they buy a cue of their own, buy many of these sub-$100 brands like Players.

There are many times more people who own pool tables in their home than who play in leagues or follow any kind of organized pool. I meet them all the time. One guy recently at work. Classic example. Was talking about his man-cave. Has an 7 footer in there. I asked him if he ever shot in any leagues. Answer: no. Asked if he ever went to any pool rooms: Answer: no. Followed by why would I do that when I have a table. There's a lot of people like this. That is how the billiard table manufacturers survive and do business. The biggest part of their market are not enthusiasts who play league, go to pool rooms or follow pro pool. Just because you might have a dart board on the wall of your garage doesn't mean you're in a dart league, or you tune into British TV stations to watch the pros battle it out.

Been to a recreational supplies store where tables are sold? You rarely if ever see a Gold Crown or any kind of pro or commercial grade table. You rarely if ever see any 9 foot tables, these are special order in most stores. It's endless types and styles of 7 and 8 foot furniture style home tables of low to medium quality.

Thus, even in terms of selling gear, the industry doesn't need pro players that much. Which billiards industry companies do the most sponsoring? The ones whose business model it is to sell high-end gear. Let's pick on Predator. The overwhelming majority of people who hit pool balls in the USA, who are not in leagues, watch pro pool, or go to pool rooms - will never buy a Predator shaft or cue. In fact, most have no idea what they even are. Most homes with some type of pool table have cheap house cues.


Let's put it this way....Brunswick isn't saying to themselves "oh no, we better get Shane and several others signed up quick, or the masses will go with our competitor and we'll be taking heavy losses" ...The masses of players could care less. Most of the industry doesn't hinge on having pro-level endorsement.

In short, a person who plays pool is distinctly different thing than a pool fan.

I was naive about that a long time ago. I thought that anyone who spent the money on a pool table was automatically an enthusiast. Seemed logical. Just isn't the case. All kinds of people put tables in their homes and they are no more an enthusiast of pool than owning a kitchen knife makes you a culinary enthusiast who watches Food Network.


Anyway -

Regarding the game of choice - the IPT experimented with providing the game of the masses (8-ball) and it didn't work out.


I don't have the answer, but one thing is for sure - pool is one of those games that people prefer to participate in rather than spectate. Three reasons why. Pool is reasonably accessible, thus most anyone can play. Pool is FUN. And pro pool is, well ...other than for the hard core enthusiasts, boring to watch for the masses. It lacks suspense, drama, conflict, high excitement and the dynamics of colorful characters interacting with one another. Other sports have that, by design. Most other sports are entertainment first, competitions second. Pool is very much all competition and about zero entertainment.


Shane is playing Jayson, live stream. Most pool players could care less. They are saying to themselves, wow these guys are amazing. Pros are great. They appreciate it, but why am I watching these guys when I could be hitting balls myself? And that is just what they do. I have seen live streams played in pool rooms when there were mainly league players present. Almost no interest. More interest than the general public renting tables who are completely oblivious to what is on the screen...but not much more.
 
The reason baseball is watched, is because parents get their kids watching it from birth and they have a home team to root for.

Baseball is way more boring than pool but people dont have a home "team" to root for and they aren't introduced to it as kids. People have way too many other interests by the time they are allowed in pool rooms or bars.
Jason
 
Not to rain on your parade...but as soon as you develop and market a viable product...the Chinese will not only steal your product but will undercut your price as well...Poof!

Pool cannot become a professional sport with the current cast of characters few of whom are reliable in any way shape or form. So called professional pool players are basically just gamblers who happen to be skilled at pool. They are like cats...if someone yells squirrel...they quit what they are doing and take off looking for it...regardless of what other obligations they may have.

Also pool is not a viewer friendly game. 60,000 people can watch a live football game played on a 100 yard field and see most of the action. Maybe 100-200 people can watch a live pool match on a 9 foot table. Optics just aren't very good...a little better on TV...but still not a lot of action to keep a casual observer interested.

To repeat...

The real problem is still the players...not reliable...more interested in gambling on someone elses dime...most look like and act like hoodlums...and they aren't into actually making money only in gambling until they are broke. As in...you have no heart...give me a chance to get my money back...spot me another ball...etc...etc...etc.
 
Grilled Cheese said:
Your observations are 100% accurate. Not sure about the conclusions though.


But let's focus on that disconnect or divide. I think divide is a better word.

In pool, there's amateurs, and then there's the pro realm. There's just about no in between. I'm not talking skill level necessarily. Talking about community and culture. You nailed it on that.


I've seen both sides, and they are radically different worlds. There's only a tiny handful of people, some of which are the types who come on this forum, who have observed or hung in each of these distinctly different realms.

Why this situation exists could be a long, speculative discussion. But it is real. I will speculate by saying simply - there's no incentives or natural reason for either group to interact with the other.

Here's the long version.

Amateurs as a whole, could care less about pro pool as it doesn't serve them in any significant way. Not even for instructional purposes in most cases. Pros could care less about amateur pool, as there's not much to be gained there for them. Practically speaking, there's no pro-pool in the USA right now RELATIVE to the size of the billiards industry (which isn't a small industry actually). Meaning that, even if the pros went completely extinct, the billiards industry and amateurs players would continue to exist.

Thus, pros are irrelevant. They really are. In the US, does anyone even care about pro darts? There's dart leagues and competitions. There's millions of casual players in bars. Pros are irrelevant there too.

The only interaction you see between pros and amateur is promotional. Much like how it is in other sports. That is, pros get sponsored by equipment manufacturers so that the amateurs who actually do follow them will buy that gear. Simple. Common stuff there. In pool, there's not much a pro has to do other than wear the logos on their shirts. Not a whole lot of actual promotion. Only the very elite sponsored by the big companies have to do a little, and it pales compared to say golfers who do a lot more with their sponsors.

But that's a minority for pool. It's hard for those of us deeply into pool to put it into perspective (we do get lost in our own world), but the majority of players and the industry aren't like us. Most players do not play with ANY of the major cue brands. Most players, if they buy a cue of their own, buy many of these sub-$100 brands like Players.

There are many times more people who own pool tables in their home than who play in leagues or follow any kind of organized pool. I meet them all the time. One guy recently at work. Classic example. Was talking about his man-cave. Has an 7 footer in there. I asked him if he ever shot in any leagues. Answer: no. Asked if he ever went to any pool rooms: Answer: no. Followed by why would I do that when I have a table. There's a lot of people like this. That is how the billiard table manufacturers survive and do business. The biggest part of their market are not enthusiasts who play league, go to pool rooms or follow pro pool. Just because you might have a dart board on the wall of your garage doesn't mean you're in a dart league, or you tune into British TV stations to watch the pros battle it out.

Been to a recreational supplies store where tables are sold? You rarely if ever see a Gold Crown or any kind of pro or commercial grade table. You rarely if ever see any 9 foot tables, these are special order in most stores. It's endless types and styles of 7 and 8 foot furniture style home tables of low to medium quality.

Thus, even in terms of selling gear, the industry doesn't need pro players that much. Which billiards industry companies do the most sponsoring? The ones whose business model it is to sell high-end gear. Let's pick on Predator. The overwhelming majority of people who hit pool balls in the USA, who are not in leagues, watch pro pool, or go to pool rooms - will never buy a Predator shaft or cue. In fact, most have no idea what they even are. Most homes with some type of pool table have cheap house cues.


Let's put it this way....Brunswick isn't saying to themselves "oh no, we better get Shane and several others signed up quick, or the masses will go with our competitor and we'll be taking heavy losses" ...The masses of players could care less. Most of the industry doesn't hinge on having pro-level endorsement.

In short, a person who plays pool is distinctly different thing than a pool fan.

I was naive about that a long time ago. I thought that anyone who spent the money on a pool table was automatically an enthusiast. Seemed logical. Just isn't the case. All kinds of people put tables in their homes and they are no more an enthusiast of pool than owning a kitchen knife makes you a culinary enthusiast who watches Food Network.


Anyway -

Regarding the game of choice - the IPT experimented with providing the game of the masses (8-ball) and it didn't work out.


I don't have the answer, but one thing is for sure - pool is one of those games that people prefer to participate in rather than spectate. Three reasons why. Pool is reasonably accessible, thus most anyone can play. Pool is FUN. And pro pool is, well ...other than for the hard core enthusiasts, boring to watch for the masses. It lacks suspense, drama, conflict, high excitement and the dynamics of colorful characters interacting with one another. Other sports have that, by design. Most other sports are entertainment first, competitions second. Pool is very much all competition and about zero entertainment.


Shane is playing Jayson, live stream. Most pool players could care less. They are saying to themselves, wow these guys are amazing. Pros are great. They appreciate it, but why am I watching these guys when I could be hitting balls myself? And that is just what they do. I have seen live streams played in pool rooms when there were mainly league players present. Almost no interest. More interest than the general public renting tables who are completely oblivious to what is on the screen...but not much more.
Click to expand...

You're right to an extent, but there's a lot of people in this country that don't watch ANY kind of sports, that don't change my plans any, because they're not based in the uninterested public in this country.
 
Kiwis11 said:
Not to rain on your parade...but as soon as you develop and market a viable product...the Chinese will not only steal your product but will undercut your price as well...Poof!

Pool cannot become a professional sport with the current cast of characters few of whom are reliable in any way shape or form. So called professional pool players are basically just gamblers who happen to be skilled at pool. They are like cats...if someone yells squirrel...they quit what they are doing and take off looking for it...regardless of what other obligations they may have.

Also pool is not a viewer friendly game. 60,000 people can watch a live football game played on a 100 yard field and see most of the action. Maybe 100-200 people can watch a live pool match on a 9 foot table. Optics just aren't very good...a little better on TV...but still not a lot of action to keep a casual observer interested.

To repeat...

The real problem is still the players...not reliable...more interested in gambling on someone elses dime...most look like and act like hoodlums...and they aren't into actually making money only in gambling until they are broke. As in...you have no heart...give me a chance to get my money back...spot me another ball...etc...etc...etc.
Click to expand...

You painted such a bleak picture of most people in this country that don't care about pool, I guess it's a good thing then that I don't need them, and I'm not relying on them for support in my plans.
 
Kiwis11 said:
Not to rain on your parade...but as soon as you develop and market a viable product...the Chinese will not only steal your product but will undercut your price as well...Poof!

Pool cannot become a professional sport with the current cast of characters few of whom are reliable in any way shape or form. So called professional pool players are basically just gamblers who happen to be skilled at pool. They are like cats...if someone yells squirrel...they quit what they are doing and take off looking for it...regardless of what other obligations they may have.

Also pool is not a viewer friendly game. 60,000 people can watch a live football game played on a 100 yard field and see most of the action. Maybe 100-200 people can watch a live pool match on a 9 foot table. Optics just aren't very good...a little better on TV...but still not a lot of action to keep a casual observer interested.

To repeat...

The real problem is still the players...not reliable...more interested in gambling on someone elses dime...most look like and act like hoodlums...and they aren't into actually making money only in gambling until they are broke. As in...you have no heart...give me a chance to get my money back...spot me another ball...etc...etc...etc.
Click to expand...

Then I guess that'll have to change then won't it.
 
Kiwis11 said:
Not to rain on your parade...but as soon as you develop and market a viable product...the Chinese will not only steal your product but will undercut your price as well...Poof!

Pool cannot become a professional sport with the current cast of characters few of whom are reliable in any way shape or form. So called professional pool players are basically just gamblers who happen to be skilled at pool. They are like cats...if someone yells squirrel...they quit what they are doing and take off looking for it...regardless of what other obligations they may have.

Also pool is not a viewer friendly game. 60,000 people can watch a live football game played on a 100 yard field and see most of the action. Maybe 100-200 people can watch a live pool match on a 9 foot table. Optics just aren't very good...a little better on TV...but still not a lot of action to keep a casual observer interested.

To repeat...

The real problem is still the players...not reliable...more interested in gambling on someone elses dime...most look like and act like hoodlums...and they aren't into actually making money only in gambling until they are broke. As in...you have no heart...give me a chance to get my money back...spot me another ball...etc...etc...etc.
Click to expand...
I must have missed something, how much glue have you ever seen made in china?
 
The most risky product on the face of the planet is a "PRO POOL PLAYER". For that reason, pool will most likely NEVER be what it once was.

Words of the day are risk and profit. To much of one and not enough of the other.

Here is what's gonna happen, which is what is happening now and for a long time now:

Companies that make or sale billiard related equipment, tools, materials (GLUE), accessories etc...etc... will continue to make money hand over fist off the backs of the POOL ENTHUSIASTS and the pros.

We enthusiasts will continue to get promised this and that but, we (enthusiasts) will in the end be heartbroken. All in all, we enthusiasts will still come back for more........or should I say give more and more and get less and less in return.

Kind of reminds me of SOCIAL SECURITY incomes vs INFLATION.
 
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