Yes, that was a long time ago Jaden. The first time one uses BACK HAND ENGLISH, you get an effect that you don't expect for sure.
I think BHE is OK but I believe that setting up with side spin is better, at least in my case.
JoeyA
When a cue plays too good............
- Thread starter JoeyA
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Yes, that was a long time ago Jaden. The first time one uses BACK HAND ENGLISH, you get an effect that you don't expect for sure.
I think BHE is OK but I believe that setting up with side spin is better, at least in my case.
JoeyA
Cod Lock,
When you address the cue ball in the center and then apply the English from there, are you shifting your bridge hand or just moving your tip to apply the English?
Thanks,
JoeyA
don't forget that you can setup initially with side spin while still using BHE.
The biggest detractor from the way I PERSONALLY use BHE is that you are moving a lot of your body parts after you're down on the shot.
You don't HAVE to do that to use BHE.
As long as you place your bridge hand on the center ball shotline while holding it at the pivot point, you can step into the shot putting the side spin that you want already.
You don't HAVE to get down and then pivot.
I'm pretty sure that this is what Busty does.
I also think a lot of people use it without even realizing it. I think that's one of the reasons that the old schoolers taught to use a bridge at 10-12" because most regular deflection shafts have a natural pivot point right around there.
Jaden
The biggest detractor from the way I PERSONALLY use BHE is that you are moving a lot of your body parts after you're down on the shot.
You don't HAVE to do that to use BHE.
As long as you place your bridge hand on the center ball shotline while holding it at the pivot point, you can step into the shot putting the side spin that you want already.
You don't HAVE to get down and then pivot.
I'm pretty sure that this is what Busty does.
I also think a lot of people use it without even realizing it. I think that's one of the reasons that the old schoolers taught to use a bridge at 10-12" because most regular deflection shafts have a natural pivot point right around there.
Jaden
From my experience with hitting balls with Efren's cue, I can understand why he might use BHE (BACK HAND ENGLISH). His cue squirted more than a Jersey milk cow.
My thinking is that BHE versus "English parallel to the shot line" is relative to the cue FIRST, then relative to the shooter's ability. Knowing what your cue does in all instances is what it is all about, imo.
There probably isn't any wrong way, just one way that works better for the person than another.
JoeyA
Even with my regular ole solid maple shaft, straight or parallel is always most consistent for me personally. It does require precision.
Basically BHE, FHE and Parallel all work but differently...
BHE works wonderful for players who tend to hit the ball firm all of the time... BHE compensates for the squirt of the cueball from an off center hit when the proper pivot point it used... IF the cueball is struck softer swerve enters back into the equation and it's non longer a silver bullet... The other thing BHE doesn't account for is CIT... However if you setup with a small amount of parallel inside english and then perform BHE CIT gets taken care of....
Parallel will never work well for hard shots unless you are using one of the lower deflection shafts... Just the nature of the beast... Setting up parallel to the straight center ball line and expecting the cueball to stay on that line with spin won't happen with a traditional shaft.. With a traditional shaft for parallel to work you would have to be hitting the ball at the perfect speed where swerve corrects for squirt.... Which is where FHE actually comes in...
FHE is really Parallel english with just a bit of cueing angle pivot... IF done correctly the cue pivots back at the grip hand which means it's the smallest amount of BHE used in conjunction with the parallel setup to compensate for squirt and swerve... It can be very inconsistent unless you pay close attention to placing the grip hand on the cue in the same place each time... Usually the guys that grip the cue at the very back all the time have better luck using FHE than the guys that are gripping at the balance point or somewhere further up the grip.... This is why I think some of the old timers thought the short cues were like stealing... They were FHE users and the short cue made them grip the cue in the back which made it's usage more dependable and consistent....
Everyone would do well to experiment with all 3 of these options and watch the effects of speed on their results... I would never pick one and stick with it otherwise you will only have a hammer and you will be forced to treat every shot as if it was a nail.....
And JoeyA if that cue is playing too good just put whatever tip back on it you used to use ;P
Chris
BHE works wonderful for players who tend to hit the ball firm all of the time... BHE compensates for the squirt of the cueball from an off center hit when the proper pivot point it used... IF the cueball is struck softer swerve enters back into the equation and it's non longer a silver bullet... The other thing BHE doesn't account for is CIT... However if you setup with a small amount of parallel inside english and then perform BHE CIT gets taken care of....
Parallel will never work well for hard shots unless you are using one of the lower deflection shafts... Just the nature of the beast... Setting up parallel to the straight center ball line and expecting the cueball to stay on that line with spin won't happen with a traditional shaft.. With a traditional shaft for parallel to work you would have to be hitting the ball at the perfect speed where swerve corrects for squirt.... Which is where FHE actually comes in...
FHE is really Parallel english with just a bit of cueing angle pivot... IF done correctly the cue pivots back at the grip hand which means it's the smallest amount of BHE used in conjunction with the parallel setup to compensate for squirt and swerve... It can be very inconsistent unless you pay close attention to placing the grip hand on the cue in the same place each time... Usually the guys that grip the cue at the very back all the time have better luck using FHE than the guys that are gripping at the balance point or somewhere further up the grip.... This is why I think some of the old timers thought the short cues were like stealing... They were FHE users and the short cue made them grip the cue in the back which made it's usage more dependable and consistent....
Everyone would do well to experiment with all 3 of these options and watch the effects of speed on their results... I would never pick one and stick with it otherwise you will only have a hammer and you will be forced to treat every shot as if it was a nail.....
And JoeyA if that cue is playing too good just put whatever tip back on it you used to use ;P
Chris
I address the shot as dead center cue ball as if to make
it center pocket with no English and then change the tip
position without moving the bridge hand. Most people would
be surprised at how little spin has to be added on most (80%
or better) shots to get to where you want to be on the table.
Most of the time a tip or a tip and a half with the right speed
applied to the shot is going to get you there. Center pocket
aiming at address is the key, because it allows margin for
error on either side of the pocket when you apply the English
needed to execute each shot.
I think what separates the men from the boys is that shot
or 2 per game that can come up when you get out of line
on position and leave a longer shot, more angled shot, or
a combination of both. The Pros are going to overcome
the tough shots a lot more than the Semi Pros or a common
A/B player and that's what allows them to complete more
run outs and win more games.
The game is just so much easier, as we all know, when you're
feelin' it or you can just tell that you're on or at the top of you're
game that particular day or time.
Another thing(s) that keep players like myself from playing at
a consistent championship level is that lots of practice alone
won't get you there. It helps, but there's much more to it. To
take your game up a notch(I'm speaking of myself here) you
have to have pressure packed matches against super strong
competition. Whether you're gambling or playing in a tournament,
you need to be in pressure situations several times a week IMO
(I'm limited on this, work many hours and don't get out much).
I play by myself 90% of the time and it's easy to see that you're
hitting the balls good, but then I get out of the basement and it's
new environment, different table(slower, faster, not as level, more
humid, etc.), You loose that level of comfortability that your used
to. After several games go by you can settle in a little bit most of
the time and play good pool. Other times it just feels as if you've
left the good pool playing you're capable of in the basement at the
house...lol, but true. If you start out slow in a tournament you can
go 2 and out in no time, where as if you're gambling you have a lot
more time to dig yourself out of the hole as long as you've got time
and money. Playing strong players with the pressure on, being able
to adapt to different atmospheres, and being able to adjust to the
type of equipment you're playing on are just as important as practice
and practicing with systems if anyone(myself included) is going to
get to the top levels of pool. Sure, some of us beat Pros here and
there, but being able to do it match in and match out is the thing
that they have that most of us don't.
Consistency is the teacher (sorry CJ)
Joey, I tried to answer your question early in my post and then I just
went into ramble mode. Sorry about that, just stating my opinions
and experiences.
Here we go again !..Joey, I can't determine whether you disagree with your friend Jaden, or not ?..This is a common thing, when ANY two aiming system supporters, try to communicate. That is why almost ALL A.S. threads wind up in differences of opinion, or outright arguments...Let me try and explain why I like to poke fun, and tease guys who feel the need, to try and explain "their" pet methods of aiming, or applying English, (or side spin) or whatever you want to call it.
This may take a while, but I'll give it a try !..Joey or Jaden, I don't like 'name dropping' but I trust you guys will concede, I have played, and/or travelled with some the best players, at least of my generation. I'll just name a few, Ronnie Allen, Ed Kelly, and Grady...Many here also seem to be hung up, on the sharing of information among player's..It was never a matter of being ultra 'secretive'..We just accepted the fact that we all knew how to move our cue ball around pretty sporty, hence no need to talk about it..Some of us just did it better than others..Nothing has changed there. :embarrassed2: (We didn't spend our down time 'talking'..we preferred to spend it drinking and chasing women
)I am too old, to be very well versed on the new 'information age', but I think that is where much of the discord, and arguing comes from..Everyone seems to want to 'label' everything, hence all the various 'acronyms' that permeate these discussions. Another, is you'alls obsession with low, and high deflection shafts !..That has ALWAYS been a matter of personal preference. What feels good to one guy, may feel dead wrong to another..I seriously doubt, whether Efren even notices which type he has, as long as the cue 'feels' good to HIM, he'll adapt to it ! A good player can play off the wall if he has to--"It ain't the arrow, its the Indian"
Once you've learned a good, repeatable stroke, good mechanics, and a good solid bridge, you are on your way to becoming a good player...IF, you are ever going to be one!... 'Pivot points' and 'Back hand English' (both fairly new terms) should become automatic...Its quite possible I myself, may use some of these methods, but if I do, I sure didn't learn them from a book, or a DVD...They came naturally (from HAMB) or they didn't come at all..This is why I feel that beyond teaching a 'newbie' the basic rudiments of the game, its up to the individual to learn the finer points..I am also going to assume, that even the lowest banger, has figured out how to raise, and lower his bridge hand, to accommodate different spin..If he hasn't, he ain't ever going to..
I don't mean to be callous, or not share things..But I do like to gig you guys who are already somewhat accomplished player's..Most of your haggling with each other, is simply overused "semantic's", and I find that hilarious !
SJD
PS..And Jaden, I don't really "give a sh*t" what aiming system Lou F. uses... I happen to know his mindset is very similar to mine, regarding the value of systems... That's the main reason him and John Barton, are like oil and water !
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Lou...What aiming system do you use ???
PS..I have 'swooped' (ie; swept) a few pretty bar maids off their feet...Is that what we're talking about ?
My aiming system goes like this: I stand in front of the shot, I decide what I want the OB and CB to do, I get into shooting position, and I shoot. Because Ive made all my decisions before descending into shooting position, my body is set up to do what I want to do and there really is no aiming per se. If it looks right I pull the trigger.
Lou Figueroa
I believe most folks here are here to help. In some cases that means telling people that based upon personal experience some paths up the mountain are dead ends. That's helping too.
Lou Figueroa
It's not about hitting a million balls. It's about hitting a million balls, and paying attention, and adapting and changing as you go along, based upon what you observe as you're hitting those balls. We all know guys that play the same today as they did 20 years ago. They're hitting the balls but not paying attention.
Lou Figueroa
yoou're absolutely right...
Most of the disagreements amongst supporters is semantics..
When I first learned what Back Hand English was called, me a Colin Colenso had several disagreements about how it worked, it turned out that it wasn't really that we disagreed, we were just describing it differently.
This was back when I first signed up to post. I was stuck at GTMO with no real tables to play on and AZ was my only escape to the pool world...
Jaden
Here we go again !..Joey, I can't determine whether you disagree with your friend Jaden, or not ?..This is a common thing, when ANY two aiming system supporters, try to communicate. That is why almost ALL A.S. threads wind up in differences of opinion, or outright arguments...Let me try and explain why I like to poke fun, and tease guys who feel the need, to try and explain "their" pet methods of aiming, or applying English, (or side spin) or whatever you want to call it.
This may take a while, but I'll give it a try !..Joey or Jaden, I don't like 'name dropping' but I trust you guys will concede, I have played, and/or travelled with some the best players, at least of my generation. I'll just name a few, Ronnie Allen, Ed Kelly, and Grady...Many here also seem to be hung up, on the sharing of information among player's..It was never a matter of being ultra 'secretive'..We just accepted the fact that we all knew how to move our cue ball around pretty sporty, hence no need to talk about it..Some of us just did it better than others..Nothing has changed there. :embarrassed2: (We didn't spend our down time 'talking'..we preferred to spend it drinking and chasing women
I am too old, to be very well versed on the new 'information age', but I think that is where much of the discord, and arguing comes from..Everyone seems to want to 'label' everything, hence all the various 'acronyms' that permeate these discussions. Another, is you'alls obsession with low, and high deflection shafts !..That has ALWAYS been a matter of personal preference. What feels good to one guy, may feel dead wrong to another..I seriously doubt, whether Efren even notices which type he has, as long as the cue 'feels' good to HIM, he'll adapt to it ! A good player can play off the wall if he has to--"It ain't the arrow, its the Indian"
Once you've learned a good, repeatable stroke, good mechanics, and a good solid bridge, you are on your way to becoming a good player...IF, you are ever going to be one!... 'Pivot points' and 'Back hand English' (both fairly new terms) should become automatic...Its quite possible I myself, may use some of these methods, but if I do, I sure didn't learn them from a book, or a DVD...They came naturally (from HAMB) or they didn't come at all..This is why I feel that beyond teaching a 'newbie' the basic rudiments of the game, its up to the individual to learn the finer points..I am also going to assume, that even the lowest banger, has figured out how to raise, and lower his bridge hand, to accommodate different spin..If he hasn't, he ain't ever going to.This is why I feel that beyond teaching a 'newbie' the basic rudiments of the game, its up to the individual to learn the finer points .
I don't mean to be callous, or not share things..But I do like to gig you guys who are already somewhat accomplished player's..Most of your haggling with each other, is simply overused "semantic's", and I find that hilarious !
SJD
PS..And Jaden, I don't really "give a sh*t" what aiming system Lou F. uses... I happen to know his mindset is very similar to mine, regarding the value of systems... That's the main reason him and John Barton, are like oil and water !
Most of the disagreements amongst supporters is semantics..
When I first learned what Back Hand English was called, me a Colin Colenso had several disagreements about how it worked, it turned out that it wasn't really that we disagreed, we were just describing it differently.
This was back when I first signed up to post. I was stuck at GTMO with no real tables to play on and AZ was my only escape to the pool world...
Jaden
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Jaden,
Actually ole Dick is just plain wrong about Efren. Efren does care what he plays with and doesn't like low deflection shafts and never has.
My theory about low deflection shafts and high deflection shafts is this:
You can have a high deflection shaft and play well with it, IF you play a LOT and get used to the larger amounts of squirt with the cue.
Low deflection cues have a smaller margin of error as far as squirt is concerned and are most likely better for players who don't have the ability to play for many dozens of hours per week.
Of course, if you have been playing with a high deflection cue for dozens of years, it might be a little difficult to appreciate the value of a low deflection cue.
That's just my personal opinion, having played with cues that vary from one end of the spectrum to the other.
Unfortunately, some of the ole dinosaurs have a tough time understanding that there are different ways to learn and different ways to explain things. They have only their own personal experience to rely on and while it is limited, it is all they know. Some of them get stuck in the past and are unable to catch up with the present. It is what it is. I don't bear them any malice but I pity that they haven't been able to bridge the gap between yesteryear and today.
Also, a regular maple shaft as it wears down in size often becomes a low deflection shaft for those who don't realize this. Jaden I know you understand everything I am talking about but just wanted to cover a bunch of stuff as I have grown weary of the old man rants and weak attempts at trying to create arguments and discord with ad hominem attacks.
The thread topic about a cue playing too good is really about just that.
The Indians were shooting arrows and the settlers were shooting with rifles. Hard to argue which weapon is more effective.
Finally, I believe that each person should investigate what will work best for them and that's what they should use. Those "pool absolutists" who believe that HAMB is the best way to learn are stuck in the past. Those "pool absolutists" who believe that one type of cue is better than another are also missing the boat and that applies to both camps.
JoeyA
Actually ole Dick is just plain wrong about Efren. Efren does care what he plays with and doesn't like low deflection shafts and never has.
My theory about low deflection shafts and high deflection shafts is this:
You can have a high deflection shaft and play well with it, IF you play a LOT and get used to the larger amounts of squirt with the cue.
Low deflection cues have a smaller margin of error as far as squirt is concerned and are most likely better for players who don't have the ability to play for many dozens of hours per week.
Of course, if you have been playing with a high deflection cue for dozens of years, it might be a little difficult to appreciate the value of a low deflection cue.
That's just my personal opinion, having played with cues that vary from one end of the spectrum to the other.
Unfortunately, some of the ole dinosaurs have a tough time understanding that there are different ways to learn and different ways to explain things. They have only their own personal experience to rely on and while it is limited, it is all they know. Some of them get stuck in the past and are unable to catch up with the present. It is what it is. I don't bear them any malice but I pity that they haven't been able to bridge the gap between yesteryear and today.
Also, a regular maple shaft as it wears down in size often becomes a low deflection shaft for those who don't realize this. Jaden I know you understand everything I am talking about but just wanted to cover a bunch of stuff as I have grown weary of the old man rants and weak attempts at trying to create arguments and discord with ad hominem attacks.
The thread topic about a cue playing too good is really about just that.
The Indians were shooting arrows and the settlers were shooting with rifles. Hard to argue which weapon is more effective.
Finally, I believe that each person should investigate what will work best for them and that's what they should use. Those "pool absolutists" who believe that HAMB is the best way to learn are stuck in the past. Those "pool absolutists" who believe that one type of cue is better than another are also missing the boat and that applies to both camps.
JoeyA
Well this went off the tracks quickly... I guess as soon as Ol Dick saw a bunch of letters he didn't recognize he thought he was into an Aiming thread... Still not sure how Lou got drug up...
because I've become his replacement nemesis for JB...
Since JB stopped posting, Lou has chosen me as his new nemesis... I won't be as easy to excite as JB unless he's talking shit about my friends...
Jaden
Since JB stopped posting, Lou has chosen me as his new nemesis... I won't be as easy to excite as JB unless he's talking shit about my friends...
Jaden
Old Nine Baller
Banned
You simply need to learn how to develop a "pre-shot routine (PSR)" and to "step into the shot", apply some "BHE" or maybe some "TOI" and you definitely need a "QMD (electronic stroke trainer)".
Then your game will skyrocket. Remember Dick, those that can't play, teach.
P.S. Why do they call you the Duck on the other site? Were you always ducking people?
.ONB
lol, you give yourself waaaaaaay too much credit. You are not even a baby blip on my radar.
Lou Figueroa