Not sure about the $ but I mean it metaphorically..
Playing for first knowing everyone else is playing for
2nd.
Playing for first knowing everyone else is playing for
2nd.
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When ameteur competitors consistantly cash in professional events
- Thread starter Rhea
- Start date
He won the APA US Amatuer Championship twice and he competes competitively with pros in the circuit. Based on commentary in one match I saw (a match against Mika), he doesn't play pool full time. I don't care how infrequent he plays, he is no amatuer. I assume if a player wins one US Amatuer Championship and does well in the US Open, then that should automatically make said player a pro.
justinb386
Banned
That is strong. At least he did not seemingly ask Henny for any weight, or did he? He must at least think he is in their league. He is a great player.
I'll preface this by saying, I think FargoRate is awesome and doing a lot of good for pool. That said, I hate the idea of it being used to cap entries. Yes, there are professional players out there that you may not want playing in your amateur-intended event but there are also a number of pro-caliber amateurs who deserve the opportunity to showcase their talents.
I'm not going to get into the statistical differences between a 700 and 800 but I'll say this, if you want to try and filter the better players into their own bracket, you should copy poker and make the harder events more lucrative. Like, your B event could have a $50 entry with no added money while your A event has a $150 entry with $1,000 added (these examples are not meant to be literal). Players wishing to have a good time and win a few matches will gravitate to the B event while players looking to get a payday will play in the A event. Problem solved.
As well, by using entry fees as your filter, the organizers are no longer responsible for proper handicapping and/or updated Fargo statistics. People have the liberty to do what they want and may the best player win.
As for Brian Parks, he really isn't winning tons of money at the US Amateur Championships. I would imagine he just thinks it's fun and that's why he does it. Why take that away from him?
I'm not going to get into the statistical differences between a 700 and 800 but I'll say this, if you want to try and filter the better players into their own bracket, you should copy poker and make the harder events more lucrative. Like, your B event could have a $50 entry with no added money while your A event has a $150 entry with $1,000 added (these examples are not meant to be literal). Players wishing to have a good time and win a few matches will gravitate to the B event while players looking to get a payday will play in the A event. Problem solved.
As well, by using entry fees as your filter, the organizers are no longer responsible for proper handicapping and/or updated Fargo statistics. People have the liberty to do what they want and may the best player win.
As for Brian Parks, he really isn't winning tons of money at the US Amateur Championships. I would imagine he just thinks it's fun and that's why he does it. Why take that away from him?
HENNY unleashed the blitzkrieg on his azz to get the penny
guess that makes HENNY a better amateur
If it's Brian Parks you are referring to all he has to do, to go from a top echelon amateur to a top echelon pro, is cut his nuts off.
Brian may not desire to go pro all that badly, but you never know?
Thats both clever and original. You should be proud.
He did ask for weight, but since it was a tournament match, Henny declined.
My question would be......why does anyone give a shit?
So someone plays at an arguably pro level and wins your local $20 tourney......oh no. Obviously when people say they won’t play if X player is in the tourney, they are looking to steal themselves. It’s either highly hypocritical or you should get better.....obviously that person did.
Same person beats you in league because league handicaps cap out and the disparity at the top can be quite large.
Said person doesn’t play full time and likely plays mostly for enjoyment albeit at a very high level. They like to challenge his or herself in pro level events
So, the crybaby solution is to change this person’s status so they can’t play in league and such, depriving them of opportunities to play a game they enjoy. And the only reason is to protect your ego and be an APA 7 who doesn’t get destroyed in front of teammates(this isn’t meant for anyone in particular, this happens everywhere).
So someone plays at an arguably pro level and wins your local $20 tourney......oh no. Obviously when people say they won’t play if X player is in the tourney, they are looking to steal themselves. It’s either highly hypocritical or you should get better.....obviously that person did.
Same person beats you in league because league handicaps cap out and the disparity at the top can be quite large.
Said person doesn’t play full time and likely plays mostly for enjoyment albeit at a very high level. They like to challenge his or herself in pro level events
So, the crybaby solution is to change this person’s status so they can’t play in league and such, depriving them of opportunities to play a game they enjoy. And the only reason is to protect your ego and be an APA 7 who doesn’t get destroyed in front of teammates(this isn’t meant for anyone in particular, this happens everywhere).
This post is not even about Brian. I have seen event flyers that list no pros on them and still allow people like Justin to participate. If you are going to advertise no pros does that mean everyone in the world can play except for Shane Van Boening or Jaiqying Wu?
I would like to add to your post, there is no such thing as pro pool. Seriously, how many American pool players are actually making a living at pool? Five? Ten? Even if it's 30, that's not enough to encompass the guy around 700 Fargo.
When you ban someone from competition because they're too good, you're not promoting them to the big leagues. You're just kicking them out of pool for being too good.
The term “pro” in pool is almost impossible to define. It’s actually a pretty laughable title anyway. You only need 55k in tournament winnings to break the top 10 on the AZB money list.
Name another skill where people would consider you a “pro” when you don’t making a living at it.
Examples:
Mary sings really well and should do it for a living. But she works at Starbucks. Is she a professional singer?
Jim plays guitar as good as Clapton(yea yea), but he’s in pharmaceutical sales. Is he a professional guitar player?
So......why is pool different? You don’t see adult sport leagues like baseball kick guys out of the league because they hit .600 and maybe could have played in the MLB had they taken a different path.
Again, it’s an ego issue. I promise you, if someone ever makes it possible for “pro level” players to make a decent living(never gonna happen), they’ll stop playing in your $7 a match league.
Name another skill where people would consider you a “pro” when you don’t making a living at it.
Examples:
Mary sings really well and should do it for a living. But she works at Starbucks. Is she a professional singer?
Jim plays guitar as good as Clapton(yea yea), but he’s in pharmaceutical sales. Is he a professional guitar player?
So......why is pool different? You don’t see adult sport leagues like baseball kick guys out of the league because they hit .600 and maybe could have played in the MLB had they taken a different path.
Again, it’s an ego issue. I promise you, if someone ever makes it possible for “pro level” players to make a decent living(never gonna happen), they’ll stop playing in your $7 a match league.
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Lol. I was just typing a similar post.
The problem is that when it comes to making a living off of pool, that is very difficult to track. Without a tour card, actual professional tour, no real exhibitions anymore, and barely any challenge matches anymore (try tracking those down as well) it's almost impossible to prove you make a majority of your money in pool.
We could designate, as some have suggested, that if you finish in a certain placement such as Derby City, Turning Stone, The US Open Series (8, 9, 10), the US Straight Pool Championship, etc that you aren't allowed to enter amateur events. I think this is an acceptable risk, the risk part being if one person plays the week of their life they might place much higher than they would on average.
If the US will not establish a tour and tour school, I see three possible alternatives.
1. Make all events one of two kinds. Events are either only for league players, or they can be for everyone. If you enter events that are for everyone, you can't enter any league events for one calendar year. This is my least favorite option, but it does make the two pools completely separate. This would also mean in events like the US Amateur Championship, the prize would not include entry into an event like the US Open or Turning Stone. This would be enforced by having to scan a valid and confirmed amateur league card (like apa, bca, tap, etc) into a computer in order to enter a league only event. If you wanted to enter an event for anyone, you would purchase instead a national scan in card that would be required for events like the US Open 9 ball and Turning Stone, or you could not play in those events (let's just say the card is the same price as an APA membership and you could not hold both types of cards in a calendar year). Not my favorite option, but it does completely separate the two groups.
2. Utilize the FARGO ratings and create two types of tournaments: Ones where you have to have a range rating (a class for 100-300, 301-500, so forth), events where you have to have a minimum fargo rating (say, must have a 700 level FARGO minimum to enter). This does the same thing as the above option, but uses a system already in place. The goal would be to sync a fargo rating to a players card (lets call it the FARGO card just to be simple). Everyone gets one, and your fargo rating is attached to it, and you can only play in events your FARGO falls into. To me this is needless complicated, but everyone who plays now seems to have some form of FARGO rating so it might work. The problem is just like leagues, this carries no safeguards against sandbaggers unless you get a certain number of points added to your FARGO simply based on your finishing position. Again complicated, but accomplishes the goal of separating classes out.
3. My personal favorite: make all events open events. Max entry fees would be $400 so people would be able to have an experience even if they knew they wouldn't win. Also, every "major" tournament has a buy back option of $400, cap the field at first 100 to register. Create more events rather than a few big ones, again anyone can enter and put their money up. Not everyone will buy back in, but more people might sign up for $400 than paying $1000 upfront like the US Open 9 Ball. This makes tournaments go faster as the "losers bracket" doesn't fill up as much depending on who buys back or not. No handicaps, no divisions, just may the best shooter win.
I'd prefer we all put the effort in to just make another go at a tour despite the debacles of the IBT, the Camel Tour, etc. Otherwise, I don't see too many ways forward than the ones listed above.
We could designate, as some have suggested, that if you finish in a certain placement such as Derby City, Turning Stone, The US Open Series (8, 9, 10), the US Straight Pool Championship, etc that you aren't allowed to enter amateur events. I think this is an acceptable risk, the risk part being if one person plays the week of their life they might place much higher than they would on average.
If the US will not establish a tour and tour school, I see three possible alternatives.
1. Make all events one of two kinds. Events are either only for league players, or they can be for everyone. If you enter events that are for everyone, you can't enter any league events for one calendar year. This is my least favorite option, but it does make the two pools completely separate. This would also mean in events like the US Amateur Championship, the prize would not include entry into an event like the US Open or Turning Stone. This would be enforced by having to scan a valid and confirmed amateur league card (like apa, bca, tap, etc) into a computer in order to enter a league only event. If you wanted to enter an event for anyone, you would purchase instead a national scan in card that would be required for events like the US Open 9 ball and Turning Stone, or you could not play in those events (let's just say the card is the same price as an APA membership and you could not hold both types of cards in a calendar year). Not my favorite option, but it does completely separate the two groups.
2. Utilize the FARGO ratings and create two types of tournaments: Ones where you have to have a range rating (a class for 100-300, 301-500, so forth), events where you have to have a minimum fargo rating (say, must have a 700 level FARGO minimum to enter). This does the same thing as the above option, but uses a system already in place. The goal would be to sync a fargo rating to a players card (lets call it the FARGO card just to be simple). Everyone gets one, and your fargo rating is attached to it, and you can only play in events your FARGO falls into. To me this is needless complicated, but everyone who plays now seems to have some form of FARGO rating so it might work. The problem is just like leagues, this carries no safeguards against sandbaggers unless you get a certain number of points added to your FARGO simply based on your finishing position. Again complicated, but accomplishes the goal of separating classes out.
3. My personal favorite: make all events open events. Max entry fees would be $400 so people would be able to have an experience even if they knew they wouldn't win. Also, every "major" tournament has a buy back option of $400, cap the field at first 100 to register. Create more events rather than a few big ones, again anyone can enter and put their money up. Not everyone will buy back in, but more people might sign up for $400 than paying $1000 upfront like the US Open 9 Ball. This makes tournaments go faster as the "losers bracket" doesn't fill up as much depending on who buys back or not. No handicaps, no divisions, just may the best shooter win.
I'd prefer we all put the effort in to just make another go at a tour despite the debacles of the IBT, the Camel Tour, etc. Otherwise, I don't see too many ways forward than the ones listed above.
Unfortunately, there are no real ways forward. You’d need outside money from sponsors to get a real pro tour up and running. Sponsors need something of value and that would be spectators watching, then buying things from the sponsors.
Pool isn’t a spectator sport(die hard pool fans don’t count) for the masses. If it was, something would have already worked or other tours would have never failed.
Which is why I think it’s pointless to separate “pro” level skill players. Pool is a hobby that less than 1% can make a living at. Let’s not try to spin it any other way. It’s a hobby and people get their egos hurt when someone is decisively better at their hobby.
Pool isn’t a spectator sport(die hard pool fans don’t count) for the masses. If it was, something would have already worked or other tours would have never failed.
Which is why I think it’s pointless to separate “pro” level skill players. Pool is a hobby that less than 1% can make a living at. Let’s not try to spin it any other way. It’s a hobby and people get their egos hurt when someone is decisively better at their hobby.
Couldn't agree more, with regards to America at least. It always has been easier to sell pocket billiards as an event worth going to see and fund in places like europe and asia.
I don’t agree with this.....why can’t an amateur become the best player in the world...
...and still remain an amateur?
We had a golfer up my way who won 7 Ontario Opens...loaded with pros.
...his name was Nick Weslock....he owned a successful small business and remained
an amateur all his life.
A ‘professional’ is one who ‘professes’ to a certain way of life
...I guess it’s pool’s gambling background that makes the statement....
...”You’re too good.”....
...an accusation rather than a compliment.
pt, If he didn't take any money, he'd still be an amateur, wouldn't he?
..if there is no IRS 1099 you're not a pro.
FargoRate can be the q-card underwriter, if it wants to be, they're the one accumulating
the data, would need one more layer though, FargoRate regional reps.
..if there is no IRS 1099 you're not a pro.
FargoRate can be the q-card underwriter, if it wants to be, they're the one accumulating
the data, would need one more layer though, FargoRate regional reps.
Exactly! This year very strong swiss amateur player Ronald Regli (fargorate 751) won silver medal in 9b at European championships and qualified for World Games (he fell ill 2 days prior to the World Games so he didnt play good there). If Ronald chose to be a pro he has all the tools to do so yet he has well paid daily job and plays pool as a hobby like most of us. Is he a pro ? No he is not, he is just one of the best amateur players out there. If Ronald turned pro his pool playing abilities would get even stronger because of more practice and more exposure to the world class tournament play and he would rise to the very top I believe. Thats the difference between pro and top amateur in my eyes.