When an employee 'hooks you up' on table time, do you tip them extra?

[scsuxci]

Its finding a happy medium were everyone can be satisfied.Its like
a cook that puts to much food on a plate,can cost the owner money,
then take the flipside of that, if the restaurant puts to little food on the plate,it will also cost the owner money when those patrons don't
come back.
Now I know people will say the difference is that the owner
doesn't know and thats makes it stealing,but I also know that most
most people working in these places make crap,and the owner
also knows this.
Some consider it stealing,some consider it subsidizing the crappy
income that employer chose to give her.
Depends what side of the fence your on.

 

[Rain-Man]

Its finding a happy medium were everyone can be satisfied.Its like
a cook that puts to much food on a plate,can cost the owner money,
then take the flipside of that, if the restaurant puts to little food on the plate,it will also cost the owner money when those patrons don't
come back.
Now I know people will say the difference is that the owner
doesn't know and thats makes it stealing,but I also know that most
most people working in these places make crap,and the owner
also knows this.
Some consider it stealing,some consider it subsidizing the crappy
income that employer chose to give her.
Depends what side of the fence your on.

Wow.. I guess I'm just amazed that some people actually think like this.. I disagree with EVERYTHING this poster just said.
- Theft is NOT a happy medium
- A cook that puts too much or too little on a patrons plate just needs corrected as to how to do his job properly. He isn't doing it on purpose for better tips (which is theft).
- If the people in these place "make crap", why did they take the job in the first place if they didn't agree with the pay scale? I'm sure they were told their pay before they started, and if they didn't agree with it they could have very easily NOT taken the job..?
Go work somewhere else where your "skills" are better compensated..?
- The bartenders in the majority of places I've ever seen do not "make crap", and in fact make MUCH more than most college graduates, and while working LESS hours. Yes, they usually don't get benefits or a retirement plan, but they didn't bust their ass in school for 4-6 years to make the equivalent of someone who did..
- How can you possibly consider stealing, "subsidizing the crappy income the owner chooses to give her(/him)"?

This is an absolutely INSANE way to think, and EXACTLY what is wrong with our country nowadays.. I prey for our future because about half the country probably feels just like this poster, and that is truly scary...

 

[frankncali]

It just an aged old scam that employees do to get extra money into their pockets in the bar business. Bartenders over pour to gain better tips, which adds to the overhead for the owner. Same with giving pool time, beers, and food to friends. I've been around this since the 70's and you would not believe the BS that some employees come up with to pocket your money. I never liked having to fire an employee, but sometimes it's necessary.

It's theft, plain and simple. If you don't think so, hire me

Over pouring is a plain and simple killer. I fight it each week with a fraternal lodge I am president at. They just don't understand that they can actually bring profits to losses.

 

[JB Cases]

I've had this debate with my friends, was curious how AZ sees it. The way they seem to think is:

"this waitress is genuinely my friend and is trying to do something nice for me.
That's why she charged me nothing (or a lot less) in table time. I want to do something nice in return."

The way I see it is:
The waitress is friendly, but that's not the same as being your friend. She's effectively stealing from her employer.
Money that should go the pool hall isn't, and is going into her pocket in the form of an increased tip.
Whether her intent is to 'be nice' or get a bigger tip, doesn't really matter to the boss who is losing money.

I seem to be the only one in our group who doesn't mind paying for table time. I'm not trying to be holier than thou,
there are other situations where I should be paying money but don't. So I don't report the waitress or discourage it because I'd
feel like a hypocrite and I don't want to to spoil the 'deal' my buddies clearly enjoy.

But I don't pay her extra to rob her employer either.
I tip about 20% of my bill so if my table time is lower, so's her tip.

Well, to give away what the customer should be paying for is clearly stealing at worst and at best bad form.

However I will say that when I owned a pool room and when I managed bars I would set my prices to allow for a little "extra" consideration and instructed my staff to use it when they thought they needed to but not to over use giving a little extra otherwise it would become expected. We did pretty well with that policy and no one abused it as far as I knew.

On a technical note however how is it that a waitress can hook anyone up on table time? In my room the time was kept at the counter and the wait staff had nothing to do with it and couldn't manipulate it anyway.

But yeah, generally if done without permission to enhance tips it's not ethical. I think most restaurant and bar owners know though that this is something that happens all the time. I bet if you attend the annual Bar Convention you will find all sorts of solutions to combat it.

I was at Yankee Doodles in California and the owner Henry was showing me his state of the art (back then) computer controlled delivery system. In a locked cage all the liquor bottles were hooked up to hoses. The bartender would dial up what he needed and the system would deliver the exact shot amount. He told me a number at the time that it saved him in dollars and it wasn't a small number. He was very proud of it.

Would I tip more if getting free stuff? No. I tip 15% for good service and 20% for outstanding service. This is based on what the bill is and so that's that. Now, if the waitress says "I comped you that dessert" then I assume she did did it with permission from the manager. I say thanks but don't automatically up the tip because of it.

 

[scsuxci]

Wow.. I guess I'm just amazed that some people actually think like this.. I disagree with EVERYTHING this poster just said.
- Theft is NOT a happy medium
- A cook that puts too much or too little on a patrons plate just needs corrected as to how to do his job properly. He isn't doing it on purpose for better tips (which is theft).
- If the people in these place "make crap", why did they take the job in the first place if they didn't agree with the pay scale? I'm sure they were told their pay before they started, and if they didn't agree with it they could have very easily NOT taken the job..?
Go work somewhere else where your "skills" are better compensated..?
- The bartenders in the majority of places I've ever seen do not "make crap", and in fact make MUCH more than most college graduates, and while working LESS hours. Yes, they usually don't get benefits or a retirement plan, but they didn't bust their ass in school for 4-6 years to make the equivalent of someone who did..
- How can you possibly consider stealing, "subsidizing the crappy income the owner chooses to give her(/him)"?

This is an absolutely INSANE way to think, and EXACTLY what is wrong with our country nowadays.. I prey for our future because about half the country probably feels just like this poster, and that is truly scary...

I'm not saying''hey everyone should steal'' but I'm trying to make a point
that when people say''just get another job''is not so easy and some
people can't.
In my city,I hear people saying all the time''there's lots of jobs out
there ,you just have to look''.
The problem is there's a huge difference between ''having a job''and
making a living.
If it was you, that this girl gave some free table time to,would you
of complained to the owner or no?
I drive cab for a living and I've told my manager,if the company
is going to gouge me with all these fee's I will make up for it.
Company's and businesses have been shafting people for years.
You may disagree with the way I think,but I am for fairness and for
the common person being able to make a living,not just having a job.

 

[bud green]

Many bars I have been to will give you a free drink every now and then in appreciation of your repeat business. As long as the server is on the same page as the owner, I really don't see the problem. One bartender told me they could give away a set amount per shift if they wanted...I can't remember how many, maybe two for a six hour shift. Most times they didn't give any away.

In a market as tough as the bar scene in San Diego, where there are a million bars, I actually think it helps business overall. When they see me come in all the time and spend money, a free shot once or twice a month isn't going to kill them. A local coffee shop gives me a free espresso drink for every five I buy...I think experienced servers have a sense of how much you spend and do a similar thing without dealing with punch cards,etc...

I've actually had to tell other people giving me free stuff to knock it off when I knew for sure it wasn't cool with the owner, though.

 

[CreeDo]

JB: most real pool halls have a proper counter man/woman, but unfortunately our league is at a fast eddie's branch.
No counter man. Instead each waitress starts and stops your pool time besides taking your order.
Different waitresses get different tables apparently.

The automatic shot dispenser is genius, I've seen a few make-your-own-soda machines
where you put down your cup, choose a drink and a mix-in (vanilla mountain dew? ugh),
and it does the rest. You could probably do the same with mixed drinks but would lose the
pizzazz of having the bartender do fancy drink pouring.

Maybe a practical way to deal with table time tweaking is to have the balls locked somewhere,
and they only unlock when you start a table on the computer. You could theoretically stop it early...
but if you get caught, there's no defense. "I forgot to start their time" is one thing,
but there's no "I accidentally went into the computer and stopped their time".

scsuxi: It's probably fair to say that 'minimum wage' is not really meeting the minimum
amount a person needs to live in some place, unless they want to live 3rd-world style.
And some jobs (usually entry level, unskilled labor) are very much a raw deal.

But that's just an unfair fact of life in several countries and stealing is not the solution.
There's other ways to save a buck, earn a few extra, or get assistance from the gov't or family or friends.

I'm pretty sure if your employer saw your post he'd fire you... and why shouldn't he?
He can't trust you.

 

[mikepage]

[...]
I drive cab for a living and I've told my manager,if the company
is going to gouge me with all these fee's I will make up for it.

[...] I am for fairness [...]

When a potential employer says, ..this is the job, these are the conditions, this is the pay... your choice is to say yes that's acceptable or no that's unacceptable...

"Fairness" is the employer following through and you following through.

You pretending you find the arrangement acceptable and then surreptitiously altering it in your favor is not fairness.

If you buy a cue from somebody for $500 that you think he should have sold for $400, do you sneak $100 out of his wallet in the interest of fairness?

 

[scsuxci]

When a potential employer says, ..this is the job, these are the conditions, this is the pay... your choice is to say yes that's acceptable or no that's unacceptable...

"Fairness" is the employer following through and you following through.

You pretending you find the arrangement acceptable and then surreptitiously altering it in your favor is not fairness.

If you buy a cue from somebody for $500 that you think he should have sold for $400, do you sneak $100 out of his wallet in the interest of fairness?

Your wrapping every situation in the same box. Everyone files income tax,don't you believe there's a very large percentage of people trying
to claim something frivolous on there taxes claiming its a business
expense.
C'mon ,the reality is we pick an choose where our honesty lies.From
lying on an application or only telling half truths.
I'm a realist who believes there are a small percentage of people
that lead a 100% honest lifestyle,for those people I applaud them.

For the rest,its hard to preach honesty in one area and break it in another.
Like I said before,it depends on what side of the fence your on.

 

[wahcheck]

reality....

Your wrapping every situation in the same box. Everyone files income tax,don't you believe there's a very large percentage of people trying
to claim something frivolous on there taxes claiming its a business
expense.
C'mon ,the reality is we pick an choose where our honesty lies.From
lying on an application or only telling half truths.
I'm a realist who believes there are a small percentage of people
that lead a 100% honest lifestyle,for those people I applaud them.

For the rest,its hard to preach honesty in one area and break it in another.
Like I said before,it depends on what side of the fence your on.

My own perception of reality in my life's experience in many jobs is that theft is everywhere in many forms; I agree with you about the small percentage;
I always think about the saying, "every man has a little larceny in his heart"..

I am reminded of waiters who tell me what they didn't charge me for; one even said he charged me for the "roast beef" on the menu instead of the "prime rib", which was obviously higher in price.......

I have worked around garage workers who stole money from the parking fees, gas pumping, items out of cars, and seemingly any other way they could....

I have worked around well-paid construction workers who stole in every way
they could....

I remember a pool hall closing down because most of the employees weren't
charging their friends for table time, and who knows what else.....

...and while we're on the subject, can anybody find me someone real honest that I could trust and hire to handle the cash register for my business if I were not around to monitor the goings on?

 

[WhatRobEats]

My cousin used to manage a pool room so occasionally he would give me free time. I didn't tip him because he was my cousin.

Hasn't happened for me since then. But when I go out I usually only play on bar boxes. I genuinely hate the 9 foot slick as glass tables that are at the only billiards room left in my area.

 

[Cdryden]

I've had this debate with my friends, was curious how AZ sees it. The way they seem to think is:

"this waitress is genuinely my friend and is trying to do something nice for me.
That's why she charged me nothing (or a lot less) in table time. I want to do something nice in return."

The way I see it is:
The waitress is friendly, but that's not the same as being your friend. She's effectively stealing from her employer.
Money that should go the pool hall isn't, and is going into her pocket in the form of an increased tip.
Whether her intent is to 'be nice' or get a bigger tip, doesn't really matter to the boss who is losing money.

I seem to be the only one in our group who doesn't mind paying for table time. I'm not trying to be holier than thou,
there are other situations where I should be paying money but don't. So I don't report the waitress or discourage it because I'd
feel like a hypocrite and I don't want to to spoil the 'deal' my buddies clearly enjoy.

But I don't pay her extra to rob her employer either.
I tip about 20% of my bill so if my table time is lower, so's her tip.

Good post Creedo. I haven't read all the replies but I just want to say I agree completely. The employee and all others involved are stealing from the owner. Period.

It's a shame really, I have noticed that more often than not the people that frequent pool halls (and bars in general) are in a sense a parasite. One that bleeds the business dry and then moves on to the next host. The workers steal, the customers steal and they are all biting the hand that feeds them.

To often I have noticed that unsuccessful bar and pool hall owners take a hand in their own demise by not taking the hiring process seriously enough. Having honest, knowledgeable and competent employees is EVERYTHING.

They hire the air brained cute girl with the ethics of a Chicago politician and then have the audacity to wonder why it isn't working out.

As a customer I want my bartender to know how to make my drink and room owner that understands pool and pool players, and a manager that knows what it takes to maintain equipment and how to keep the morons from tearing it up.

 

[cardiac kid]

CreeDo,

Several months ago, I gave our counterman/tournament director a tip after I won a weekend event there. He gladly accepted it. So few people appreciate the work a TD does. The room has a video surveillance system covering the front counter. No audio, only video. The owner confronted the guy about stealing money that should have gone in the cash drawer. Sometimes you just can't win.

Lyn

 

[Rain-Man]

Over pouring is a plain and simple killer. I fight it each week with a fraternal lodge I am president at. They just don't understand that they can actually bring profits to losses.

Tap tap tap....

 

[cardiac kid]

Good post Creedo. I haven't read all the replies but I just want to say I agree completely. The employee and all others involved are stealing from the owner. Period.

It's a shame really, I have noticed that more often than not the people that frequent pool halls (and bars in general) are in a sense a parasite. One that bleeds the business dry and then moves on to the next host. The workers steal, the customers steal and they are all biting the hand that feeds them.

To often I have noticed that unsuccessful bar and pool hall owners take a hand in their own demise by not taking the hiring process seriously enough. Having honest, knowledgeable and competent employees is EVERYTHING.

They hire the air brained cute girl with the ethics of a Chicago politician and then have the audacity to wonder why it isn't working out.

As a customer I want my bartender to know how to make my drink and room owner that understands pool and pool players, and a manager that knows what it takes to maintain equipment and how to keep the morons from tearing it up.

Pretty good post as well!

Thing is, the room owner has to balance the number of drinks that "air head" might sell versus the number without. Personally, I'd prefer to deal with an attractive young lady serving drinks than a unattractive one or an androgynous person. Sorry. Guess it's just the way I was brought up. Don't mean to offend anyone.

Always thought a tip was a reward for good service. In the "old" days, didn't you tip the person in advance hoping to receive good service?

Lyn

 

[Cdryden]

Pretty good post as well!

Thing is, the room owner has to balance the number of drinks that "air head" might sell versus the number without. Personally, I'd prefer to deal with an attractive young lady serving drinks than a unattractive one or an androgynous person. Sorry. Guess it's just the way I was brought up. Don't mean to offend anyone.

Always thought a tip was a reward for good service. In the "old" days, didn't you tip the person in advance hoping to receive good service?

Lyn

Very true, but it can be both. I have seen plenty of attractive girls with brains, I even married one. But "brains" doesn't seem to be a prime requisite at some of the pool halls I have been to or bars for that matter.

It's unfortunate really. I guess I'm getting old, I don't care how good looking you are, just how well you can do your job. If looks was all that mattered I would try to find a strip bar with a pool table. (we have one in my town btw!)

I know sex sells, but after a while you start to want some quality in your life. I know, I know, I'm old fashioned..... so be it.

And as far as tips are concerned I tip according to service as well and I tip generously when warranted. I get no complaints on that matter, those that got a good tip know why, as well as those who didn't.

 

[Rain-Man]

I'm not saying''hey everyone should steal'' but I'm trying to make a point
that when people say''just get another job''is not so easy and some
people can't.
In my city,I hear people saying all the time''there's lots of jobs out
there ,you just have to look''.
The problem is there's a huge difference between ''having a job''and
making a living.
If it was you, that this girl gave some free table time to,would you
of complained to the owner or no?
I drive cab for a living and I've told my manager,if the company
is going to gouge me with all these fee's I will make up for it.
Company's and businesses have been shafting people for years.
You may disagree with the way I think,but I am for fairness and for
the common person being able to make a living,not just having a job.

1) When people use the phrase "just get another job if you dont like this one", they are being a little sarcastic to make a point. The point being that if you feel you are underpaid, shop your skills and what you bring to the table for a perspective employer around. Most likely your NOT going to find a better, higher paying job because you are already getting paid exactly what your worth. Its just a "polite" way of saying it...

2) If I felt the person "hooking" me up was doing it without the owners consent, and for reasons of personal financial gain in the form of a better tip from me, then yes, I would find a way to let the owner know.

3) I find it astonishing that you actually TOLD your manager that "you will make up for it" for them charging you fee's, and you were not fired on the spot. Just amazing....

4) You say your for "fairness", but have no problem with people stealing, and from what you stated, doing it your self. Thats your definition of "fairness"? That seems more like the "im'a gets mine's" mentality, the heck with whoever it ends up hurting..

5) This type of thinking will only end up hurting YOU in the long run in life.
If you feel everyone "owes" you something, you'll never learn to earn it yourself. Nobody owes you anything except an opportunity. Take the entry level, low wage job and work your way up through gained experience, and proving yourself to your employer(s). If you can make every employer see that they need you more than you need them (through your hard work, and dependability), they WILL reward you with better pay, better benefits, a better position with the company, etc.. If they dont, then guess what, you've now turned yourself into an employee ANY employer would love to hire, and your own personal value in the open labor market will have significantly risen...

I dont mean to single you out, and be preachy.. Sorry, this is my last direct response to you... Good luck.. :embarrassed2:

 

[CreeDo]

scsuxi: I do see your point. I can't say for example that I've never eaten a snack when working at a fast food place. And in theory, stealing is stealing, doesn't matter the dollar amount. But taking a chicken strip that was going to be tossed anyway feels more wrong to me than directly preventing upwards of 50 bucks from going into the cash register. Especially if I'm doing it to augment my paycheck.

Even from a selfish perspective it doesn't make much sense -
The waitress risks losing a job in a tough economy, over a few extra bucks. She may not make extra bucks at all, as many people tip based on the total bill. And if I encourage her theft I hurt the pool hall and maybe it closes, or they can't afford to recloth the table so my enjoyment suffers.

Lyn: were you able to get in touch with the guy who thought he saw theft and explain? That sucks that the TD caught flak when he didn't do anything wrong.

I agree the tip is for good service, as long as we're not calling "free table time" good service. If the waitress was otherwise friendly and fast she gets her usual 15-20%.

 

[JB Cases]

lol, that woulda been a pretty nice way to title it.

To be honest at the time I posted, I had no idea that the owner might voluntarily give his employees permission to give away table time, I was thinking it was 100% without his knowledge.

When someone suggested he might be ok with it, I had to stop and think (usually a good thing)... then I was able to remember "oh yeah, but I've heard so-and-so ask us not to tell the owner".

If I had never heard them say that, then I'd be have to admit that maybe it was done with the owner's sanction, and I was jumping to conclusions. I can always just ask the owner outright.

I wonder if the 'occasional freebie' system is more hassle than it's worth. I know some people will be so impressed by the concept of "free" that they return to the place and become regulars. But there's the danger someone will start to feel entitled and get pissed when asked to pay for something that is often (but not always) free. And you can't really budget for it. Rather than get a $7 for free half the time, I'd rather pay a predictable $3.50 every single time. Then there's no guesswork, no danger of butthurt, and the accounting is easy for both me and the owner. I don't want my bill to be a random number every week.

Sorry if this bursts anyone's idea of how the world works but sometimes salesmen tell customers "not to tell the owner" when the owner is the one who told the salesman to say that. Good Cop/Bad Cop the world's second oldest profession.

 

[cardiac kid]

Lyn: were you able to get in touch with the guy who thought he saw theft and explain? That sucks that the TD caught flak when he didn't do anything wrong.

Didn't have to approach the owner. The counter man basically told the guy to pound salt. Now, when a patron gives an employee a tip, whether a "thanks for a job well done" or for serving beverages, the money goes into a jar on the rear counter and emptied before close of business. On video of course!

Lyn