When is a miscue a foul?
- Thread starter dr_dave
- Start date
pj
chgo
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miscue in new rules
Below are some pertinent partial quotes from the new rules. After reading them, it seems like the unintentional miscue in the video should be considered a foul, but I'm not sure.
This begs the question: Are all "unintentional miscues" now fouls? I couldn't find any direct quotes in the new rules concerning whether or not miscues are fouls.
I hope Bob Jewett is out there listening to set us straight.
Regards,
Dave
8.18 Miscue
A miscue occurs when the cue tip slides off the cue ball possibly due to a contact that is too eccentric or to insufficient chalk on the tip. It is usually accompanied by a sharp sound and evidenced by a discoloration of the tip. Although some miscues involve contact of the side of the cue stick with the cue ball, unless such contact is clearly visible, it is assumed not to have occurred. ... Note that intentional miscues are covered by 6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct (c).
6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct
The normal penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct is the same as for a serious foul ... Unsportsmanlike conduct is any intentional behavior that brings disrepute to the sport or which disrupts or changes the game to the extent that it cannot be played fairly. It includes
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(c) playing a shot by intentionally miscuing;
6.7 Double Hit / Frozen Balls
If the cue stick contacts the cue ball more than once on a shot, the shot is a foul. ...
I think you quoted from the old rules. The new rules are here:Patrick Johnson said:
Below are some pertinent partial quotes from the new rules. After reading them, it seems like the unintentional miscue in the video should be considered a foul, but I'm not sure.
This begs the question: Are all "unintentional miscues" now fouls? I couldn't find any direct quotes in the new rules concerning whether or not miscues are fouls.
I hope Bob Jewett is out there listening to set us straight.
Regards,
Dave
8.18 Miscue
A miscue occurs when the cue tip slides off the cue ball possibly due to a contact that is too eccentric or to insufficient chalk on the tip. It is usually accompanied by a sharp sound and evidenced by a discoloration of the tip. Although some miscues involve contact of the side of the cue stick with the cue ball, unless such contact is clearly visible, it is assumed not to have occurred. ... Note that intentional miscues are covered by 6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct (c).
6.16 Unsportsmanlike Conduct
The normal penalty for unsportsmanlike conduct is the same as for a serious foul ... Unsportsmanlike conduct is any intentional behavior that brings disrepute to the sport or which disrupts or changes the game to the extent that it cannot be played fairly. It includes
...
(c) playing a shot by intentionally miscuing;
6.7 Double Hit / Frozen Balls
If the cue stick contacts the cue ball more than once on a shot, the shot is a foul. ...
great topic, I'm curious myself, because for me I'd always tell my friends That miscue is not a foul. but it actually depends, some miscues looks so awkward and I always think that if the shaft rolls against the cueball, its a foul. but a normal miscue from the tip is not. thats just my personal opinion and I would like to hear from more knowledgeable people.
Ferrule hit the cueball. FOUL.
dave sutton
Banned
funny topic. i dont know if you can call it a foul. obv you double hit the cueball but at a very high rate of speed. i dont think its a foul.
tie always goes to the shooter. a questionable call.tie goes to shooter. if the cueball is frozen and it is not acknowledged tie goes to the shooter.
in this case tie goes to the shooter if a good hit is made
the ferrule rule is only in some leagues. i see players move the cueball with the ferrule all the time in pro events and no foul is called
tie always goes to the shooter. a questionable call.tie goes to shooter. if the cueball is frozen and it is not acknowledged tie goes to the shooter.
in this case tie goes to the shooter if a good hit is made
the ferrule rule is only in some leagues. i see players move the cueball with the ferrule all the time in pro events and no foul is called
i would like to hear more about this. isnt there a distance rule on cue ball travel for it to be a ball in hand foul?? I understand if anything besides the tip hits the cue ball but if it is a plain miscue and no object ball is hit isnt there a distance rule???
I remember i saw this guy years ago in a tourney get ball in hand and was using the bridge. He accidently moved the cue out of the bridge and it bounced on top of the cue ball. The tip didnt hit the cue ball but the other guy called a foul. After alot of back and forth, it was said to be a foul. I was never sure if that was correct.
The tie has nothing to do with whether it is a foul. Slo-mo cameras have determined that a miscue results it the ferrule touching CB. That is a foul.dave sutton said:
Is it called always? No, but I don't want to test that playing anything important.
dr_dave said:
Yep, I guess so.
I wonder why the old rules are still up at the BCA site?
I think it's clear that it's a foul (from Rule 6.6 below), but only if it's "clearly visible" (from Rule 8.18 that you quoted above). But I'm not sure what "clearly visible" means... is it "clearly visible" if it can be certainly deduced from the clearly visible motion of the balls? I believe that should be the interpretation, and if it is then the shot in the video is a foul. That means you must be familiar with how the balls move under those conditions in order to call the foul, but otherwise it's just about impossible to call any similar foul - it's just too hard to clearly see the actual illegal contact.
I don't know how you determine if it's intentional (Unsportsmanlike) or not.
There's no reason to specify that intentional miscues are fouls unless unintentional miscues are not, so I think we must infer that unintentional miscues are not - but it would be nice to not have to infer.
BTW, here's the new rule that says it's a foul to hit the cue ball with anything but the tip, and that makes it Unsportsmanlike to do it intentionally:
pj
chgo
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I was playing in the 9 ball US open vs D. Peach in the first round and it was 9 to 5 his I am frozen to the side pocket point and I was trying to back cut the eight in the opposite side and I miscue. the cueball hits the 8ball and the cue ball goes to the brunswick and the eight goes to the long rail below the side pocket.
He calls a foul - I said I misuced it isnt a foul - we discuss it back and forth and like an idiot i concede because he is a pro. I then ask scott smith if it was a foul after the tournament and he said of course not. I said i know i deferred to him in the end because he was a pro and I'm an idiot.
I should have just called scott over for a decision - lesson learned.
He calls a foul - I said I misuced it isnt a foul - we discuss it back and forth and like an idiot i concede because he is a pro. I then ask scott smith if it was a foul after the tournament and he said of course not. I said i know i deferred to him in the end because he was a pro and I'm an idiot.
I should have just called scott over for a decision - lesson learned.
cowboyup200560 said:
If the cue ball even moves 1 mm, it's a foul. The only place I have seen someone think it's not a foul unless the cue ball travels a certain distance is in places where the other rules are also not known or used. I have seen peope use rules like being able to move a cue ball off the rail. Unless you hit a rail, or another ball which then hits a rail, after a miscue it would be a foul.
I would call this a foul. As you posted, the rules state "unless such contact is clearly visible, it is assumed not to have occurred". By the action of the cue ball and object ball in your example (whether you're able to "see" it or not), in my opinion, it is clear that some thing other than the cue tip hit the cue ball.
Thanks for the post.
Dave
Thanks for the post.
Dave
ferrule hit with miscue
Dave
... but the ferrule often contacts the cue ball with a miscue, and it is difficult to tell without high-speed video. Even if the ferrule doesn't hit, a miscue can hardly be described as a "single hit." Does that mean all miscues should be called fouls under the new rules?JoeyInCali said:
Dave
dr_dave said:
I believe every misuce is technically a foul, but isnt called because of intent. For example, when you draw and miscue you are jumping the cueball from the bottom an obvious foul if you did it on purpose but since it was unintended it is never called. The only time I believe it is a foul is when you are following and the shaft comes through and either stops the cue ball by catching it or speeds up or changes the path of the cueball so obvisously the naked eye can detect it.