When to fit the pin?

GBCues

Damn, still .002 TIR!
Gold Member
Silver Member
. . . . . .Those three tricks should worth a steak dinner. Anyone want to take me out? Okay, I will be happy with a hamburger.
Chris,
I think we all have learned enough from you over the years that we at least owe you a Wagyu burger! :thumbup:
 

conetip

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I fit the pin and do the joint work on my cues as the very last thing.
But I have only made my own design of carbon fibre cues.
Even the ones that do have maple to make up the diameter to suite an existing handle or for the newer handles I did that had the carbon of the handle as a core, the pin and joint detail I did last.
If you are going to damage the finish while installing the pin or the joint thread detail, either the finish is a very low quality and soft, or the way you are holding the parts is wrong.
 

EL Picos

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Use joint protector or joint dummy with center hole in the end will give you a turning center. This it what I do when cutting a wrap groove on a wrapless cue. Same thing goes for a shaft that gets turned down with a joint already installed. A wood plug put in place of the rubber bumper then center drilled gives a turning center hole for the butt end of the cue. Those three tricks should worth a steak dinner. Anyone want to take me out? Okay, I will be happy with a hamburger.


You win Cueman, I always work like that + with a steady rest for installing the joint conndections, the steady rest is more an option than necessary for pool cue but yess when you want the highest precision, when I chamber a rifle barrel I turn a taper pilot holder directly in the 3 jaws chuck to put that to 0.00000000 and I have the same taper pilot in a live center, take a cut on barrel and put the steady rest, like that the job is perfectly centered, also when i make special adapter with center hole, I always take a 60 degrees cut after the use of the center drill bit. For the highest accuracy we have to think that the tailstock is never perfectly height centered with the lathe spindle. I'm not sure that I have somethings to learn from Joey!
 

Michael Webb

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You win Cueman, I always work like that + with a steady rest for installing the joint conndections, the steady rest is more an option than necessary for pool cue but yess when you want the highest precision, when I chamber a rifle barrel I turn a taper pilot holder directly in the 3 jaws chuck to put that to 0.00000000 and I have the same taper pilot in a live center, take a cut on barrel and put the steady rest, like that the job is perfectly centered, also when i make special adapter with center hole, I always take a 60 degrees cut after the use of the center drill bit. For the highest accuracy we have to think that the tailstock is never perfectly height centered with the lathe spindle. I'm not sure that I have somethings to learn from Joey!

I try to learn something from everyone, even if it just helps me understand someone's thought process.
So Thank you
I learned something from you.
 

JoeyInCali

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
Use joint protector or joint dummy with center hole in the end will give you a turning center. This it what I do when cutting a wrap groove on a wrapless cue. Same thing goes for a shaft that gets turned down with a joint already installed. A wood plug put in place of the rubber bumper then center drilled gives a turning center hole for the butt end of the cue. Those three tricks should worth a steak dinner. Anyone want to take me out? Okay, I will be happy with a hamburger.
If the screw has a center hole, I make the J/p shorter and mill a slot on it for the spur driver.
That would turning between centers , literally.
And if you CNc it, make sure you account for the joint screw. If not, you're going to mill the forearm around the 10.75" mark.
 
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EL Picos

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I try to learn something from everyone, even if it just helps me understand someone's thought process.
So Thank you
I learned something from you.

Happy to ear that, It's nice to share knowledge and to learn somethings new everyday, every body have to learn from others!:)
 

Ssonerai

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Quote:
the shaft centers on the OD of the pin

Doubting you are really confused since many of your own posts touch on fairly rigorous practical concepts of precision, nonetheless:

It may work for many, but i have not found the center pop in pins completely reliable.
Not least because my choice of G10 pins are somewhat flexible. I was also badly frightened in early days, back in the mid-80's upon discovery of how easy it was to bend a stainless, least of all brass pin, when installing or changing it. :smile:

Due to stack tolerance - the pin is added to the system after it was machined, and after the cue was machined. Even with the pin perfectly centered in a live threaded hole by the cuemaker, the actual projected pin might vary from perfectly co-axial with the original center pop installed for the convenience of the machinist who made it. Material moves from stresses induced, or alternately, relieved, by the machining process. The forces of the machining process may also contribute.

Potential issues can be avoided by machining the part including the threads, then setting back up between centers and grinding the threads as a final operation. Is this typical for cue parts?

Per the part of my post that you quoted, after the pin is installed in the butt, the shaft does not care about the location of the center pop - it registers on the threads, or on the flats between the threads of the pin depending on style of pin.

So I do all machining on the butt, install the pin, then screw the pin into my sanding mandrel sub-arbor with the appropriate collar mounted. The sanding mandrel has a carefully made center pop concentric with the other features.

Or are we all just bored?

smt
 

BarenbruggeCues

Unregistered User
Silver Member
Doubting you are really confused since many of your own posts touch on fairly rigorous practical concepts of precision, nonetheless:

It may work for many, but i have not found the center pop in pins completely reliable.
Not least because my choice of G10 pins are somewhat flexible. I was also badly frightened in early days, back in the mid-80's upon discovery of how easy it was to bend a stainless, least of all brass pin, when installing or changing it. :smile:

Due to stack tolerance - the pin is added to the system after it was machined, and after the cue was machined. Even with the pin perfectly centered in a live threaded hole by the cuemaker, the actual projected pin might vary from perfectly co-axial with the original center pop installed for the convenience of the machinist who made it. Material moves from stresses induced, or alternately, relieved, by the machining process. The forces of the machining process may also contribute.

Potential issues can be avoided by machining the part including the threads, then setting back up between centers and grinding the threads as a final operation. Is this typical for cue parts?

Per the part of my post that you quoted, after the pin is installed in the butt, the shaft does not care about the location of the center pop - it registers on the threads, or on the flats between the threads of the pin depending on style of pin.

So I do all machining on the butt, install the pin, then screw the pin into my sanding mandrel sub-arbor with the appropriate collar mounted. The sanding mandrel has a carefully made center pop concentric with the other features.

Or are we all just bored?

smt

The end goal is very simple for me. When I put the shaft onto the butt and screw it tight, I lay the joint collar of the butt up on the rail with the tip out in space and give it a roll. As long as the there is no visible movement in the tip I have done everything I was suppose to do. Isn't that the end goal for everyone?
Now which was it again? The chicken or the egg?
 

JoeyInCali

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
The end goal is very simple for me. When I put the shaft onto the butt and screw it tight, I lay the joint collar of the butt up on the rail with the tip out in space and give it a roll. As long as the there is no visible movement in the tip I have done everything I was suppose to do. Isn't that the end goal for everyone?
Now which was it again? The chicken or the egg?

What happens if you have an 6 or 8 pointer and you install the screw while the joint size is half a mm oversized ?

How do I turn this now ? Uniloc QR screw installed.
Should I drill a center hole?
 

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EL Picos

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
You center the 2 ends in 4 independent jaws, because the concentricity of pin, barrel ... is unknow.

I'm not sure if I understand what you need to do, what you want to turn exactly?
 
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JoeyInCali

AzB Gold Member
Gold Member
Silver Member
You center the 2 ends in 4 independent jaws, because the concentricity of pin, barrel ... is unknow.

Or you can dial in the OD of the joint collar after the last pass and install the screw.
You don't center hole Uniloc QR screws.

And there is a trick to keeping that joint collar as smooth as possible after the last pass for easier indication .
 
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EL Picos

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Or you can dial in the OD of the joint collar after the last pass and install the screw.
You don't center hole Uniloc QR screws.

And there is a trick to keeping that joint collar as smooth as possible after the last pass for easier indication .


I dont understand very well what you have to do on this butt, what do you have to change?
 

Ssonerai

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
As long as the there is no visible movement in the tip I have done everything I was suppose to do. Isn't that the end goal for everyone?

Exactly.
Or maybe "precisely"
I responded only because you indicated (rhetorical?) puzzlement at my shorthand.

I've got a lot of respect & appreciation for the cuemakers on this forum so it bothers me when they indicate they don't think i understand precision or even nuance at times. If you suggest i explain myself i'll probably take the invitation literally.

smt
 

Canadian cue

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
When building cues I put the pin in after final turn. But I have had to use the pins center for turning as well when doing repairs, wrap grooves and such. You can get the job done more than one way. lots of variables, different style of screws gives you different options. Your machine setup also can change how you do things, if you are cutting off of a taper bar vs offset centers. With a taper bar you could hold the pin in a 5C collet or other type of hard collet. Its like Dave said so long as you end up with the right results doesn't matter so much your approach. For the purpose of learning try a bunch of ways of getting the same results and decide for yourself the way you feel is best. There are no rules just standards of results. If your method gets the job done but takes way too long that is another consideration.
 
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