While I remember, what about piquet shots?
when you draw, where should the cb contact the tip?
- Thread starter evergruven
- Start date
An elevated cue is “required” by the fact that you can’t physically get it level in most cases. As level as possible is the best you can do.
Stand where you like, of course, but against Dr. Dave’s science is pretty much always the wrong place.
pj
chgo
Patrick already replied mentioning there's a diminishing return from getting really really close to the miscue limit on a longer draw shot, and the reason for this is that CB speed diminishes with the extremely off-center strike from the tip. A slower CB will lose more spin to friction on its way to the OB, and this cancels out some of the benefit of getting so close to the miscue limit. So the ideal tip placement is not quite at the bleeding edge of miscue limit, as you get nearly all the benefit without as much risk of miscue.
Don't be misled by that and overcorrect toward center ball though; to get good draw you do have to hit pretty low, and the biggest reason people tend to struggle with draw is not hitting low enough.
Here's a good page of info from Dr. Dave's website (content mostly provided by Patrick Johnson in this case) on what part of the tip contacts the ball:
https://billiards.colostate.edu/faq/cue-tip/size-and-shape/
The more curved the tip is, the closer to the center of the tip the contact patch will be when striking at the miscue limit on the CB. This means that for small diameter tips, if you shape them too flat the contact patch between tip and ball can be all the way on the outer edge of the tip. This can cause miscues.
For your 11.5mm tip, a nickel-radius curvature is juuuust barely curved enough to avoid contacting with the extreme edge of the tip. To give yourself slightly more room, I'd suggest shaping it to a penny or dime radius.
I am not a very good player and don't have good fundamentals,
but I notice I often miscue when
! not properly chalked
or 2 When I try to do something difficult and don't complet my back stroke or become too wristy throwing the cue forward with an unconfident quick wristy goofy rush
Kind of like when a golfer throws his hands and hits from the top
releases his wrist angle early at the top
3 whether or not this is a bad trait that no one else has experienced I don't know,
but I have found out how to eliminate it for me
i do 3 things
1shorten distance between my hand and Judy
2 pause at the back of my stroke
3 try to be sure of everything before I bend over
this assures me I am on the shot and not trying to correct anything
during the strking process
I have had good players tell me it was necessary to get very low on the cue ball,way low
this is different than what i hear here so I don't speak with authority.
I am talking about champion level pool players telling me to get low low
almost
to the bottom
Funny but I paid no attention because I as afraid to try it in high money games
and never practiced much anyway
I never practiced to a purpose,might explain why i could never play a lick
but I notice I often miscue when
! not properly chalked
or 2 When I try to do something difficult and don't complet my back stroke or become too wristy throwing the cue forward with an unconfident quick wristy goofy rush
Kind of like when a golfer throws his hands and hits from the top
releases his wrist angle early at the top
3 whether or not this is a bad trait that no one else has experienced I don't know,
but I have found out how to eliminate it for me
i do 3 things
1shorten distance between my hand and Judy
2 pause at the back of my stroke
3 try to be sure of everything before I bend over
this assures me I am on the shot and not trying to correct anything
during the strking process
I have had good players tell me it was necessary to get very low on the cue ball,way low
this is different than what i hear here so I don't speak with authority.
I am talking about champion level pool players telling me to get low low
almost
to the bottom
Funny but I paid no attention because I as afraid to try it in high money games
and never practiced much anyway
I never practiced to a purpose,might explain why i could never play a lick
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That's what I said.
I like Dr. D. He has taken the bother to detail the fuzzy areas in pool like nothing else I've come across. The science is probably appropriately correct. But when you must concur that draw shots are of necessity done with an inclined cue, already contradicting the DD treatise, something is wrong. Where does this mythical level stroke belong?
Just speaking of my experiments with level cueing long draw shots, I required:
1) new cloth
2) 100 grit cue tip
3) and I had to slide the cueball as gingerly as possible.
This third part is what I'm talking about. When you shoot level at the cue ball it all becomes forward momentum that hopefully you got enough backspin in for the ball to come back.
When you shoot down into a draw shot the table impedes the forward travel of the ball - desirable and you get a higher ratio of back spin per distance - also desirable.
Plus you get the air ball effect that eliminates cloth resistance from the equation.
Uber draw examples abound.
and lol...:grin:
You can hit seriously low on the CB if you’re in the center. To where it feels like you will scoop it. I wouldn’t do that in a game but just as a test I’ve done it successfully plenty. The biggest problem I’ve seen with trying to draw is people don’t follow through. They get nervous or whatever and they hit low and hard and snap the cue back as soon as it touches. Stop shot.
Use an elevated cue to draw only when it’s necessary because the OB is too close and you can’t properly follow through. And I mean actually elevated. I know that you have a little elevation on basically every shot.
For the real long shots that require draw hit a little higher and harder so your spin/speed ratio isn’t all messed up and dragging your CB to death on the way there.
And don’t f with cats.
Just some wisdom from a 4-5 year veteran ��
Use an elevated cue to draw only when it’s necessary because the OB is too close and you can’t properly follow through. And I mean actually elevated. I know that you have a little elevation on basically every shot.
For the real long shots that require draw hit a little higher and harder so your spin/speed ratio isn’t all messed up and dragging your CB to death on the way there.
And don’t f with cats.
Just some wisdom from a 4-5 year veteran ��
Most draw advice is on the order of "as low as possible". If you look at the Jim Rempe training ball for instance, [the place draw here] line is near the very bottom of the ball. It's not even physically possible to get your tip onto that zone. It is true though that the lower you can hit, the easier it is to draw the ball. There's simply more rotational "leverage" near the limits of the ball. The issues are of course getting leather there and miscueing.
And for the serious geeks among you, the computer game Virtual Pool has this modeled well and you can actually see as you lower the tip for draw that for a given stick speed, maximum draw is not achieved just before miscuing (which VP also models).
And it gives you awesome table images if you want to post scenarios.
That's another good way to say it.
I would guess the miscue issue is from the stroke, tip or chalk (lack of) more than where you hit it, unless you hit it way way low and use power. When I show people how low I tend to hit my draw shots, many of them miscue when they try it, a lot of it is in the technique.
I use a 12.8-13mm shaft and can't remember last time i miscues on a draw shot. A good draw shot require a decent amount of "snap" in your delivery. Not hard but quick. For some reason i could draw my ball pretty good the first day i played. Never been an issue. Inside? Now that's another deal altogether. 
it could certainly be technique
just getting that right combo of cue angle and stroke
I have my tip shaped to a dime
I carefully scuff before each session, and carefully chalk before every shot
I'm almost sure I'm not hitting the felt
the sound of the miscue, and the mark say it's from the cb
the miscue is definitely occurring on the outer edge of the tip
when I'm able, I get very low on the shot
I might be stepping over the cb miscue limit
could be a combination of things
with the info. in this thread, with test later
I'm going to try elevating my bridge hand a bit
maybe trying to get so low on the cb
I'm not giving myself the best chance to stroke level
thanks for the thoughts-
I use a 12.8-13mm shaft and can't remember last time i miscues on a draw shot. A good draw shot require a decent amount of "snap" in your delivery. Not hard but quick. For some reason i could draw my ball pretty good the first day i played. Never been an issue. Inside? Now that's another deal altogether.
I've used bigger cues most of my playing career
I can draw with them as well as with the small cue
but with the small cue, I think I can aim more precisely
maybe it's biting me in the ass..gotta experiment more
I've been playing more with inside, too
outside always came more naturally
for me, I always seem to overcut balls with inside going from l-r or r-l
shooting with outside on those shots I'm much more comfy
ps gar, you're on 9,999- watch out for the balloons and maybe A NEW CAR:thumbup:
If your tip is dime-radius shaped, and the mark that the miscue leaves on the tip is all the way out at the edge, then you did overstep the miscue limit. This could be caused by an inaccurate stroke, or an inaccurate conception of where the miscue limit really is.
I'd suggest using the 10-ball as your cue ball, and put the "0" in the number 10 right where you think you're supposed to strike the ball with the tip. Afterwards, check the chalk mark and see if that's where you hit. This will help you learn whether you're lining up too low, hitting off the center axis, striking lower than where you line up, or any of the other flaws that can cause you to inadvertently exceed the miscue limit.
garczar...Just FYI, wrist snap does nothing to increase speed or dwell time on the CB. A "good" draw shot does not require any kind of wrist snap.
Scott Lee
2019 PBIA Instructor of the Year
Director, SPF National Pool School Tour
Scott Lee
2019 PBIA Instructor of the Year
Director, SPF National Pool School Tour
I use a 12.8-13mm shaft and can't remember last time i miscues on a draw shot. A good draw shot require a decent amount of "snap" in your delivery. Not hard but quick. For some reason i could draw my ball pretty good the first day i played. Never been an issue. Inside? Now that's another deal altogether.
The "DD treatise" (assuming DD means Dr. Dave) is simply that a level-as-possible cue gets the best draw action. The fact that it's usually (but not always) impossible to hit the CB with a level cue doesn't contradict that.
pj
chgo
By snap i meant acceleration. I never used the word "wrist' in my post. You have to have some speed to draw it well. BTW, Queens is still on Long Island.
Here's a diagram I've posted a few times showing how tip width and curvature change what part of the tip contacts the CB at the miscue limit. It shows a 12.75mm and a 10mm tip, each with a nickel and a dime curvature, hitting the CB at the miscue limit.
They all hit pretty close to their edge at the CB's miscue limit - the narrowest, flattest tip hits right on its edge there.
pj
chgo
They all hit pretty close to their edge at the CB's miscue limit - the narrowest, flattest tip hits right on its edge there.
pj
chgo