Where are production cues made ?
- Thread starter mjantti
- Start date
Vahmurka said:
Since it is related, I'll ask this question in this thread. Years ago I heard of a company that would buy the wood in Canada. The ship was a factory ship and they would make the cues on it as they steamed back (talk about humidity) avoiding US & Canadian labor laws. When they arrived the cues were done or partially done, they'd be finished up and shipped. Didn't seem like a very economical method to me, but I thought I'd ask if anybody knew it to be true or false.
I heard they'd buy the logs then cut them to lumber and took them to Asia .catscradle said:
JoeyInCali said:
I think pool tables are probably about where cues were 15 years ago. A few makers who can make decent one and dozens of makers who turn out crappy ones.
I visited a pool table factory last month that is doing top notch work. Whether they have copied the best techniques or developed their own there is no doubt that there tables can hold their own against any other brand.
Conversely I have seen absolute crap here in China when it comes to pool tables. I once saw a Gold Crown copy that had the ball holder painted on. Seriously, the place where the balls would normally be stored was flat and a representation of a ball holder was painted there. Obviously they had copied the table from a picture and not realized that the ball holder was a functional part of the table.
I think is IS incredibly easy to purchase a "bad" table these days. And the pricing is definitely putting a hurting on the US domestic producers of tables.
That said - we all talk about how we want pool to grow overall.
If more people can afford to get into pool then it's got to be good for the game and the industry in some way. I hope.
catscradle said:
This is an urban legend. No cues are made on ships unless they are whittled by the sailors to pass the time.
Mythbusters says - BUSTED.
I don't think any cue company even has enough money to purchase and maintain a ship large enough to be a floating factory.
If more people can afford to get into pool then it's got to be good for the game and the industry in some way. I hope.
Except more people are losing their jobs because of cheap Chinese goods proliferating this market and that the govt. isn't doing much to avert it.
Except more people are losing their jobs because of cheap Chinese goods proliferating this market and that the govt. isn't doing much to avert it.
Purdman said:If you went to Joss Cues web site and still don't know where they are made, you need to develop some reading comprehension skills!
Purdman
OK, you got me.
I missed the, "... continues to make the original Joss Cue in Towson, Maryland." part.
I'm not sure if it was because I've been up (and reading) all night, or because of the shock
of seeing that photo of Dan Janes for the first time. He is a 99% spitting image of the VP
(my boss) where I occasionally do some work!
Again, good catch.
Purdman
Banned
whitey2 said:
I sell his cues and know how he feels about these rumors. He get's a little steamed under the collar when he hears it. The man works 10 to 14 hour days producing a decent American made product. Asking the question if fine, giving the wrong answer is a problem. I sell his cues and can tell you that he makes the most reasonably priced American made production cues available. I have about 20 custom cues that range in price from $300 to $6,600 and I play with a special order 60 inch Joss N7 COM cue.
Purdman
JoeyInCali said:
And we are off......
It is not government's job to do anything about jobs. Are people losing jobs over the expensive foreign goods that are entering the country as well?
What would the world look like if each country was entirely self sufficient with zero trade? I can tell you that it wouldn't be pretty.
What do you think when the "government of Arizona" uses Arizona taxpayer's money to lure companies away from California and hardworking Californians lose their jobs?
Do you think that foreign buyers should stop purchasing American made cues?
I love it how everyone thinks that they have it all figured out.
Guess what, you don't. The larger picture is that we all live on a globe. It's not about the USA only. IF you believe at ALL in the Declaration of Independence and the United States Constitution then you believe in your heart that ALL MEN are created as equals and that ALL people have the same rights.
If you believe that premise then you understand that FREE TRADE is the only acceptable economic way to interact with all other nations on planet Earth.
it is not Chinese companies that are pushing Chinese products into the USA. It is your fellow citizens who own the companies that do the importing and who own the brands that are for sale in every store in the USA. It is the stockholders who rightfully expect a return on their investment. And it's the consumer who is looking to buy more on what they have to spend, and looking to buy more on their available credit.
If we stick to pool then I can't think of one single cuemaker that has closed their doors or laid off people due to import cues coming in. If you know for a fact that any American has lost their job in the billiard industry due to the influx of import cues then please post that. And then tell us the history of the American cue companies so that we can see what percentage of Americans are truly affected by this.
What I think is that the influx of lower priced goods has made pool more affordable for a larger section of the population and thus has created more jobs to service that larger customer base. Leagues have encouraged people to play more pool and lower priced cues have provided a easy entry into cue ownership.
I can think of at least 100 American jobs that would not exist if it weren't for imported pool products outside of pool tables. Can you name 100 jobs that were lost due to imported pool products other than pool tables? I left out pool tables because I don't know enough about that sector of the industry to comment accurately.
Anyway it's not so cut and dried as to simply equate foreign goods with lost jobs.
The world economy is not that easy.
(and yes I understand that China subsidizes certain industries to make the prices lower - so does the US Goverment and neither is right to do so.)
Last edited:
American cue builders
Hi all,
Triple Cross Cues and, I'm sure, other ICA members would like to invite you all to our websites to find many American Cue Makers. Yes, we have high quality members from other countries, too. We strive to provide the best equipment for all of our pool playing community. Give us a chance to provide our products and show our skills. While we may use woods from around the world, we will do our best to make you happy.
Thanks in advance for giving us your business.
Tom Gedris, Triple Cross Cues (www.triplecrosscues.com):cool:
Hi all,
Triple Cross Cues and, I'm sure, other ICA members would like to invite you all to our websites to find many American Cue Makers. Yes, we have high quality members from other countries, too. We strive to provide the best equipment for all of our pool playing community. Give us a chance to provide our products and show our skills. While we may use woods from around the world, we will do our best to make you happy.
Thanks in advance for giving us your business.
Tom Gedris, Triple Cross Cues (www.triplecrosscues.com):cool:
Here, this link works
http://triplecrosscues.com/index.php
I do not know anything about these people just being helpful. Nice site and nice looking cues
http://triplecrosscues.com/index.php
I do not know anything about these people just being helpful. Nice site and nice looking cues
mjantti said:
Tiger, Joss, Jacoby, Schon, Pechauer, Viking, McDermott (not all) and maybe Meucci.
That's about it.
JB Cases said:
Ha-ha, I knew that one would get you going the minute I saw it.
We've been down this road before so I won't expound a lot on it except to say that my objection is that I believe good jobs here are becoming subsistence jobs there (China and elsewhere). When the benefit of the jobs moving "trickles down" to the worker then I'll be perfectly content with a world wide economy. I think most of the difference in cost of production neither makes it to the worker nor the consumer.
In any event, I agree it isn't the government's role to impose tariffs and such.
Reading this thread has given me the urge to post.
As a pool player I have to say this:
What really pisses me off is when which-ever company is moving the production to a low cost country - advertise it as something of the good old days - claiming the same price - and produce something which is not the same quality! The ONLY reason for doing this is to earn more money on behalf of the customers.
If I was producing cue cases - I would move to asia for one thing - earn more money! And if I was living there I would be defending it as good as I can.
I have a so called "Balabushka GB - something" cue. To say it simple - the quality of this cue is so far from my 20 year old McDermott that I don't go in to detail.
Longoni cues: In the good old day's these was Italian made as I understand this. Looking at one now makes me feel like the quality has gone down the drain.
Fury: Cheap cues which could be used to play pool with. Quality ? Not even close.
Mezz: A friend has one and it's actually pretty good...
I looked at a another friends "super - turbo - intercooled" Black series - expensive Predator cue and it had me wondering...What in the world is that grip and why has the "lookleather" seem started to open in several places even if the cue is just 4 months old? I have no idea where these are made these day's, but I'm not buying one.
If the though of over populating the pool industry with cheap low cost and low quality products is the way to go, for increased recruit of new players is the way to go, I would for sure stick to my good old cues from the 80s.
I'm not saying everything made down in asia is crap, but increasing the amount of crap is not the way to go. Specially when some of them charge big $ for the product.
The reason for my probably offending post is this: A Super Gold Crown IV pool table costs in my country $15000. If this is produced in Asia, something tells me that someone is making a shameful amount of money, and it's not because the labor in Asia is so expensive...
JMHO
N
As a pool player I have to say this:
What really pisses me off is when which-ever company is moving the production to a low cost country - advertise it as something of the good old days - claiming the same price - and produce something which is not the same quality! The ONLY reason for doing this is to earn more money on behalf of the customers.
If I was producing cue cases - I would move to asia for one thing - earn more money! And if I was living there I would be defending it as good as I can.
I have a so called "Balabushka GB - something" cue. To say it simple - the quality of this cue is so far from my 20 year old McDermott that I don't go in to detail.
Longoni cues: In the good old day's these was Italian made as I understand this. Looking at one now makes me feel like the quality has gone down the drain.
Fury: Cheap cues which could be used to play pool with. Quality ? Not even close.
Mezz: A friend has one and it's actually pretty good...
I looked at a another friends "super - turbo - intercooled" Black series - expensive Predator cue and it had me wondering...What in the world is that grip and why has the "lookleather" seem started to open in several places even if the cue is just 4 months old? I have no idea where these are made these day's, but I'm not buying one.
If the though of over populating the pool industry with cheap low cost and low quality products is the way to go, for increased recruit of new players is the way to go, I would for sure stick to my good old cues from the 80s.
I'm not saying everything made down in asia is crap, but increasing the amount of crap is not the way to go. Specially when some of them charge big $ for the product.
The reason for my probably offending post is this: A Super Gold Crown IV pool table costs in my country $15000. If this is produced in Asia, something tells me that someone is making a shameful amount of money, and it's not because the labor in Asia is so expensive...
JMHO
N
Newton said:
As a pool player you are saying this? This sounds like you are saying this from the perspective of an amateur economist. May I ask what your experience level is in manufacturing, retail, wholesale, material sourcing, labor, logistics, quality control and all the other variables that govern the development, production, and distribution of goods so that we can be on the same page when we discuss this. Because your characterization above that the "ONLY" reason a company produces goods in one place over another is not correct.
Well I suppose you would. Does it make sense for someone to uproot their life and face an uphill battle against stereotypes, bigotry and racism, just to "earn more money"? I don't have to participate here and don't need to "defend" anything. I discuss these issues because I am actually here and experiencing these things from the other side. So what kind of experience do you have that allows you to make such blanket and simplistic statements?
I believe that you don't go into detail because you can't go into detail.
Again where are the details? Does a cue being "Italian made" mean it's good quality in the first place?
What is quality? Neither you or anyone else has come up with what a "good" cue is or established any kind of guide that has an easy way to distinguish quality levels. I am 100% positive that if I had some cues made in our Chinese factory with no known brands and set up a guy at Valley Forge who "claimed" to make them then there would be many people like you who would tout them as true quality and great examples of small cuemaker craftsmanship and tell everyone how they are better than import cues. It's funny how perception skews reality.
I don't know why you feel the need to single me out and to disrespect brands I am associated with. But if you are going to do this then please try to provide some reasoning behind your statements.
And Kaz Miki, who owns Mezz, is a Fury distributer and has consulted on the construction and design of the Fury cues. Rodney Morris pulled a stock Fury cue off the wall in Valley Forge 2003 and took second to Johnny Archer in the pro event with it. Another well known professional plays with one that he bought and has won several events with it. And the list goes on.
No comment. Not my product. We do thousands of leather wraps each year and there is no doubt that on some of them the wrap shows some defect. However it is our experience that this is less than .5% with the vast majority being done properly.
Again, what is your qualification to judge the relative quality of cues? What is your basis for saying that an import cue is low quality? Please provide us with some specific criteria to use in the comparisons. On the economic side of the aisle demand fuels supply. Consumers demand value and they receive it with the variety of relatively inexpensive cues currently available. "Good old cues from the 80's"
You sure know how to make a guy feel old. Yes you are pretty much saying that.
"A shameful amount of money", that is an interesting phrase. I have to ask when we started looking at everyone's books to determine what amount of profit one is allowed to make? Do you have any idea what it costs to produce a Gold Crown pool table? Or the what the marketing costs per table are? How about the logistics costs of moving a pool table around the world and getting it to your door and set up properly so that it lives up to the Brunswick name? It's funny though because there are plenty of Brunswick copies out there that you can buy for a third of the price and which are nearly as good as the real thing.
You use the name Newton and yet you won't analyze the situation in the true tradition of Isaac Newton's laws of the universe or Adam Smith's economic laws.
What I mean Newton is that in business one charges the correct price according to what the market will pay or one goes out of business. If Gold Crowns are truly $15,000 in your country then there is either a very good reason for it or the distributer is stupid to price themselves out of the market and open the door for lower priced copies.
The fact of the matter is that the reasons that prices are the way they are, that goods are produced where they are, and that quality levels vary are complex and cannot be reduced simply to "making more money".
Newton said:
A Gold Crown V costs about $8000 retail in the USA. Who do you think is responsible for the double cost in the Europe? Do you think that perhaps Brunswick is charging twice as much because the tables are going to Europe?
No, it's the importers, your fellow countrymen who are charging so much because they know you can't buy a Brunswick table from a choice of vendors within a reasonable physical distance.
This reminds me of when I first went to Germany in the early 90's. When I got there I found that Meucci's and McDermotts, you know, those great cues from the 80's?, were selling for double their US retail prices.
I convinced my friend Andy Sattler to invest in Tim Scruggs cues and he became one of the best known sellers of custom cues in Germany. As a result of the high prices of production cues it opened the door for the introduction of both custom cues and for less expensive imports.
The fact that a Gold Crown costs $15,000 in your country has nothing to do with where the production is done and what it costs to produce the table. It has everything to do with supply and demand. And since the price appears to be inflated because the supply is limited it opens the door for other brands to come in.
I would say if you want a Gold Crown then buy one from the USA and pay to have it shipped to Norway. You will probably save $4000.
Or, conversely, you could start importing tables with the same level of quality with a much lower price point and provide those to your fellow Norwegians. Thus allowing them to enjoy pool and become lifelong players and consumers of pool equipment.
Back to Adam Smith - the "invisible hand" that guides the marketplace dictates that with competition the quality steadily goes up as the price goes down.
This is because consumers vote with their money and that vote goes to the vendors who provide the best balance of good quality and low price.
So vendors are forced to continue to improve in order to stay in business supplying the product chain.
I am tired of hearing how the "quality" of import cues sucks.
Prove it.
Somebody stop talking about it and just prove it conclusively.
You know what? I don't think that anyone can.
Here is why?
Cues made by Kao Kao and Taican in China do not suck.
In side by side comparisons over a large selection, the cues of today built in the above two factories have the same features and are built in the same way as cues made in the United States.
Of course each cuemaker has their particular methods that they find to be the best. And each player has their particular tastes which not every cue can satisfy.
But on a purely apples to apples comparison, the apples from the good Chinese cue companies are on average nearly as good as the apples from the USA. And this statement would bear out in ANY impartial Consumer Reports style comparison.
In truth, cues are very good these days and the average price of a good cue is very low.
As to what the price of a cue "should" be..... it should be whatever the market will bear. If Predator can make a $5 cue and charge $800 for it and the consumer is happy with their purchase then that's great for Predator. Who cares? What do you think happens with the $795 profit? It gets spent on other things and provides jobs and economic stimulation elsewhere.
IF the quality is there and the customer is happy then where is the problem? You make it sound like people are painting bamboo sticks and passing them off as Balabushkas. This is not the case at all.
I give up.
I get so tired of people coming on here and acting as if it's all so simple. They condemn people who produce in Asia and want to examine the costs to the last penny to assess how much "profit" the producers are making and then on the same hand will pay $1500 for a cue that didn't cost much more to produce in the USA. And this without asking the cuemaker to open their books in order to police the profit made.
My gross profit on the cases I have sold in the last six months is $4000.
Gross profit is the amount left over when the production cost of the goods is deducted from the revenue.
My net profit from the cases is zero because all the gross profit went to purchase more machines, more leather, more supplies which in turn fuel the economy. In fact I have invested much more than $4000 into this venture so at this point I am still in the negative. But I have a lot of leather, d-rings, and several sewing machines - and none of it will buy me a pint of milk.
Profit is what allows people to do more than just exist. Profit is what keeps you employed. Profit is what fuels innovation. Without the financial support that comes from profits then research and development cannot be funded.
Why do I bother?
I don't know. I guess it's far easier for people to rant about things that they have no experience in rather than to dig deeper to find out the complex issues that surround life on the globe.
You could probably care less that I can't buy good cheese in the town I live in China. You could probably care less that a lot of the little luxuries you enjoy and easy access to most things are not available to me here. What does this have to do with anything? It's simple. Profit fuels your lifestyle. Without profit you would be living in a hovel and milking your one scrawny goat.
On one hand you want to enjoy the lifestyle you have and one the other you complain about the prices of that lifestyle.
Rant over.
I am tired of hearing how the "quality" of import cues sucks.
Let's not bundle in ALL imports.
Just the ones made in China
Is there a pro who shoots with a Chinese-made cue without getting paid?
Let's not bundle in ALL imports.
Just the ones made in China
Is there a pro who shoots with a Chinese-made cue without getting paid?
They like cheese?striped said: