Where do your eyes look?
- Thread starter dakaratestar
- Start date
Scott Lee said:
I don't think there are many peoples on earth, who has a perfect stroke. I can agree with you, when someone have a perfect stroke, it will not matter watching the OB or CB last. Because the trigger (stroke) is good. So the hit with the CB will also be good. And ofcourse the contact between the CB and OB will also be good.
But what have we learn about this? Let's analyse this.
Stroke > tip contact cb > cb contact ob > ob goes in the pocket.
stronger <-----------------------------------------> worser
So if you have a good allignment. It all depends on your stroke. A good stroke will get the ob in the pocket. So it's possible to close your eyes when shooting. Looking at the OB is almost the same as closing your eyes. But if your stroke isn't good. How do you compensate it? The second thing would be the tip contacts the cb. So if the tip contacts the right spot on the cb, the ob will goes in the pocket.
Scott Lee said:
Scott,
Check PM's
This thread got me to thinking? on the average shot, I look at the object ball during execution. However, I keep my eyes focused on the cue ball during difficult shots:
- Break shots.
- Jacked up shots.
- High follow (when the cue ball is on the rail or next to another ball).
- Hard long shots (especially if it requires a lot of force/english).
- Jump shots.
- Masse shots.
- Kicks.
It is generally agreed that it is best to look at the cue ball last on specialty shots or shots that require extreme precision. So why would it not be beneficial to look at the cue ball last when shooting average shots that don?t require extreme precision? Assuming the aim is accurate, wouldn't improved precision be a good thing?
Last night, I experimented and played just as good when keeping my eyes on the cue ball during execution and letting my eyes follow the cue ball to the object ball. Keep in mind that I do not ping pong with the eyes. I aim without stroking and then set, pause finish and freeze. However, I did find it harder to stay down (freeze) after execution. But that is probably correctable with some practice shooting this way.
Is speed control easier to accomplish by looking at the object ball last? Otherwise, what is the benefit?
Thanks,
JW
- Break shots.
- Jacked up shots.
- High follow (when the cue ball is on the rail or next to another ball).
- Hard long shots (especially if it requires a lot of force/english).
- Jump shots.
- Masse shots.
- Kicks.
It is generally agreed that it is best to look at the cue ball last on specialty shots or shots that require extreme precision. So why would it not be beneficial to look at the cue ball last when shooting average shots that don?t require extreme precision? Assuming the aim is accurate, wouldn't improved precision be a good thing?
Last night, I experimented and played just as good when keeping my eyes on the cue ball during execution and letting my eyes follow the cue ball to the object ball. Keep in mind that I do not ping pong with the eyes. I aim without stroking and then set, pause finish and freeze. However, I did find it harder to stay down (freeze) after execution. But that is probably correctable with some practice shooting this way.
Is speed control easier to accomplish by looking at the object ball last? Otherwise, what is the benefit?
Thanks,
JW
I think most of these examples (dart and dart board, car and steering wheel) are not applicable, so I thought up two that are more applicable, in my opinion: baseball and tennis.
The two swings are comparable, you're gripping an object, swinging it at another object, in an effort to make the second object go somewhere specific.
In baseball, with the narrow, round bat, the challenge is in the contact. The best recipe for success is to make square contact with the ball, and the exact direction of the bat at contact, while something the top hitters undoubtedly work on, is of secondary importance. The difference between a well-directed square hit and a poorly directed square hit might be the difference between outrunning the throw to first vs making it to second standing up. But the difference between a square hit and a less square hit is the difference between a game-ending easy ground-out and an RBI double. Consequently, your batting coach will drill into your brain to watch the ball all the way to the bat. Having a good eye on the ball is the single-most important aspect to hitting.
Whereas in tennis, with the small court and the broad flat racket, the emphasis is in ball placement, and while hitting the dead sweet spot of the racket is something good players practice to achieve, it's of secondary importance. The difference between a well-directed sweet spot hit and a well-directed hit with less zip might be the difference between a winner and a decent approach shot, but the difference between a well-directed hit and poorly directed hit is the difference between winning and losing the point. So I believe all tennis players, after watching the ball on its way in, have their eyes on their target in the other court when they let the swing go. At least that's how I play.
So as Scott was saying, what's more crucial on this particular shot? Tip placement on the CB, or exact CB direction (and therefore accuracy of hit on the OB)? On most shots, I think the direction is more crucial, since the difference between good and bad direction is the difference between keeping control of the table and losing it, whereas the difference between good and bad tip placement is the difference between leaving a good next shot vs having to examine your safety options. So eyes on the OB last for these shots only makes sense. Then there are some shots where even if you have good stroke direction, hitting the CB off-center means it won't go where you want, i.e. kicks and jacked-up shots. In these, since you can't make the ball OR get position without good tip placement, you should probably keep your eye on the CB.
Now, as evidenced by those who parrot the blonde in the 4th row crap, if you're aligned perfectly, it doesn't matter. But humans aren't perfect, and neither will your alignment be. If you have to correct these subtle imperfections, you'd better have your eyes in the right place to tell you how to do so.
-Andrew
The two swings are comparable, you're gripping an object, swinging it at another object, in an effort to make the second object go somewhere specific.
In baseball, with the narrow, round bat, the challenge is in the contact. The best recipe for success is to make square contact with the ball, and the exact direction of the bat at contact, while something the top hitters undoubtedly work on, is of secondary importance. The difference between a well-directed square hit and a poorly directed square hit might be the difference between outrunning the throw to first vs making it to second standing up. But the difference between a square hit and a less square hit is the difference between a game-ending easy ground-out and an RBI double. Consequently, your batting coach will drill into your brain to watch the ball all the way to the bat. Having a good eye on the ball is the single-most important aspect to hitting.
Whereas in tennis, with the small court and the broad flat racket, the emphasis is in ball placement, and while hitting the dead sweet spot of the racket is something good players practice to achieve, it's of secondary importance. The difference between a well-directed sweet spot hit and a well-directed hit with less zip might be the difference between a winner and a decent approach shot, but the difference between a well-directed hit and poorly directed hit is the difference between winning and losing the point. So I believe all tennis players, after watching the ball on its way in, have their eyes on their target in the other court when they let the swing go. At least that's how I play.
So as Scott was saying, what's more crucial on this particular shot? Tip placement on the CB, or exact CB direction (and therefore accuracy of hit on the OB)? On most shots, I think the direction is more crucial, since the difference between good and bad direction is the difference between keeping control of the table and losing it, whereas the difference between good and bad tip placement is the difference between leaving a good next shot vs having to examine your safety options. So eyes on the OB last for these shots only makes sense. Then there are some shots where even if you have good stroke direction, hitting the CB off-center means it won't go where you want, i.e. kicks and jacked-up shots. In these, since you can't make the ball OR get position without good tip placement, you should probably keep your eye on the CB.
Now, as evidenced by those who parrot the blonde in the 4th row crap, if you're aligned perfectly, it doesn't matter. But humans aren't perfect, and neither will your alignment be. If you have to correct these subtle imperfections, you'd better have your eyes in the right place to tell you how to do so.
-Andrew
JMW, the benefit of looking at the object ball would be a follow through. When you locked your eyes on the object ball, you will automatically execute a follow through, but you will lose some accuracy. But a follow through can also help your playing. For example, when your cue isn't aligned with the CB. When you look at the OB, you will automatically force and correct your stroke to a straight line. Like others said, it's the same as driving a car. When your car isn't standing straight to the road. You just have to watch like 30-40 meters further and drive. The car will automatically be in a straight line after a few meters.
But that is also the problem. If your cue isn't aligned with the CB and you are aiming at the centerpoint of the CB. By pulling the trigger, your cue will automatically get straight, and you will hit near center. I've seen many normal players looking at the OB and unnecessary using english when they want to hit dead center.
But that is also the problem. If your cue isn't aligned with the CB and you are aiming at the centerpoint of the CB. By pulling the trigger, your cue will automatically get straight, and you will hit near center. I've seen many normal players looking at the OB and unnecessary using english when they want to hit dead center.
WesleyW said:Soccer will also be a good example. When you are doing for a penalty, you don't want to watch the goal. You watch the ball. Otherwise you will miss the ball
As someone who played soccer for 12 years, I have to ask: have you never played soccer, or are you joking? Yes, in baseball you watch the ball or else the round ball and round bat are not going to line up just right, but in soccer and tennis, nobody watches the ball while swinging the leg or racket, at least not if they expect to direct their kick/forehand well.
I do know players who advocate watching the ball on your PKs, but that's to fool the goalkeeper, not to make a better strike. You can always hit the corner of the goal more reliably by looking at it.
-Andrew
I started out playing pool looking at the cueball last, because my Willie Hoppe book said so LOL.
In my 3rd year I found out better and switched to looking at the object ball last. And my game improved dramatically.
Finally, let me say that I strongly suspect that those pros, including Scott Lee, started out looking at the cueball last, and that they have never really serioulsy tried to switch. Thus, they are 'married to' looking at the cueball last.
Earl and Scott are the only top players I know who look at the cueball last. But who is to say how good they could have been if they had started looking at the object ball last?!!!!!!
And last but not least, if there is some pro who actually started out looking at the object ball last and who switched to looking at the cueball last with overwhelming success, I would like to know who it is. IMHO, THEY DON'T EXIST - PERIOD!
This should answer your question.
In my 3rd year I found out better and switched to looking at the object ball last. And my game improved dramatically.
Finally, let me say that I strongly suspect that those pros, including Scott Lee, started out looking at the cueball last, and that they have never really serioulsy tried to switch. Thus, they are 'married to' looking at the cueball last.
Earl and Scott are the only top players I know who look at the cueball last. But who is to say how good they could have been if they had started looking at the object ball last?!!!!!!
And last but not least, if there is some pro who actually started out looking at the object ball last and who switched to looking at the cueball last with overwhelming success, I would like to know who it is. IMHO, THEY DON'T EXIST - PERIOD!
This should answer your question.
WesleyW said:
First off let me commend you for the great grammar you have used in this thread.
Worser, more better, more closer...................etc, etc!
You won't win many arguments in here with improper grammar. Because I doubt few people will take you seriously.
Now that is out of the way let's discuss your debate.
Randy G., Scott Lee, and Pooltchr are all BCA instructors with years of practice and training.
Scott Lee told you his information comes form theories and studies, and is backed up with scientific proof!
You are going to dismiss his data? What kind of person are you?
These guys help out pool players because they love what they do, not because they know it all!
He even told you they helped Allison Fisher! Do you have any idea what their resume looks like?
I think you need to empty your cup, so that it can be filled with new information.
Let me make this easy for you sir! The object ball is the target, and you want your cue to hit the target..................However the cue ball just happens to get in the way of the stroke! If you don't understand that, or don't want to believe that then I have to agree with Randy, Scott, and Carl.
"They don't know what they don't know!" OZ
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are we sure Earl Strickland and Scott Lee watch the cueball last?
anyway, the more i think about it, i am not sure which i am looking at last when i fire away? perhaps neither....
DCP
anyway, the more i think about it, i am not sure which i am looking at last when i fire away? perhaps neither....
DCP
txplshrk said:
So why do you need to look at the CB last when shooting special shots, if looking at the OB last will be good enough?
When you're shooting special shots, you want the tip hit the exact place, so you can make the special shot, that's why you should look at the CB last! It doesn't make any sense telling peoples to look at the OB last, unless it is a special shot.
WesleyW said:
Let's see.......................mmmmmmmmmm
Kicks the cue is pointing at a rail instead of an OB, so there I look at the rail last!
Masse and Jumps the cue is normally pointing downward towards the table instead of being pointed at the OB, so I look at the CB cause I can't see through it to look at the point on the table I want to hit.
Breaks I still look at the OB last.
Any other special situations I should address?
You can disagree all you want, but I will go with the words and advise from all these instructors in here. They know what they are talking about, and I have had the luxury to be taught by some of them. They aren't idiots, and like I said they have proof to back up their teachings. So unless you have some scientific proof to back up your statement then I think I will listen to the instructors!
"They don't know what they don't know!"
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PKM said:
True enough, and I do NOW, for most shots. I teach students to look at the OB because of the data available that supports that hypothesis. When I worked with Whitewolf, more than 8 yrs ago, I was unaware of this eye pattern information. So he is correct, in that I did play and teach looking at the CB last for all shots, for many years. When I was taught to play initially, in 1971, by a professional instructor in Chicago, it was to look at the OB last. I switched to CB last around 1980, and switched back to OB last about 5 yrs ago, after being convinced by the data. I still am able to pocket balls either way.
Scott Lee
www.poolknowledge.com
WesleyW said:
Yes I do and there are ways to aim for this too! However I am smart enough to shoot with an OB-1, and there is little correction needed!!!!!! Although I never did have a problem with a stock maple shaft either!
Besides, I don't hardly ever miscue when using a lot of English so that blows your theory out of the water that you have to look at the CB to keep from having a miss cue.
It sounds like you have never taken professional instruction, therefore you don't know what your missing!
Again you are arguing with people that have been in the business and profession for a long time. You had a great instructor tell you that he used to focus on the CB last and after much study and research changed his opinion on that. Now he look at the OB last.
If you want to discredit him then all I can say is we are always going to disagree on this subject.