Where does the UPA fit into the Non-Payment for the Desert Shoot-Out in AZ ?

M

MikeJanis

Banned
Am I missing something here?

According to everything I read, the Desert Shoot-Out Classic was a UPA sanctioned event. As seen here on the UPA schedule http://www.upatour.com/hostAnEvent/host-an-event.php and here for a flyer for the event http://www.poolplayingpromotions.com/

In this section of the UPA's website, ABOUT THE UPA which can be found by going here http://www.upatour.com/company.php it states:

UPA Current AgendaTo provide unsurpassed levels of leadership, guidance, and organization that will benefit professional pool players in the United States through a published schedule of events complete with tournament promotion, guaranteed prize funds, and a fair and uniform ranking system.


I want to know what happened to the Guaranteed Funds. My belief about the UPA in part was that they would not sanction an event unless they had verification about the funding for UPA sanctioned events. Isn't that in part what the Pros pay their membership fees for and why in part they agreed to be a UPA member?

Heck, over the years the UPA has harassed many promoters into putting up the funds in advance of the said event(s) that they eventually ran off a lot of promoters from doing big events with the UPA because the UPA was so set on getting the funding verified.


I guess my real questions here are, How did the UPA fail their members and all players from this event and should the UPA be held accountable for the monies owed if the promoter of the event fails to come through with the funding ?


I know I am openly bashing the UPA with this thread and I truly don't mean it that way. But what the heck, they (UPA) said they were in business to do something to protect the players from things like this that happened in AZ so what are they gonna do.

Personally, I think the UPA needs to dig deep into their own pockets and cover this funding and if need be they should sue the promoter to recoup the funding and associated costs.

I can't wait to see all the opinions.

As a note from a promoter. Over the years I have had similar situations to the one in AZ happen to my events to the tune of more than 40K over the years. However, as the person that puts guaranteed added on the flyers I have dug into my pockets to cover the Guaranteed Added prize monies then dealt with the other responsible parties on a personal business level.

I truly feel for all involved with this matter. I do not believe that anything was done intentionally on anybody's part (Chuck Bobbit, the UPA, Jay) or anyone involved and I feel bad for all of them. However, on a professional basis for promoting tournaments and guaranteeing funding this should have been handled by the UPA before it became a problem to the players and then turned around and used as a promotional tool by the UPA on why you should become a UPA member. WOW, talk about missing the boat.

Mj
 
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It's Clear As A Bell

Well, a GUARANTEE is a GUARANTEE, so I'm certain that the UPA will be paying the players that were stiffed.
Doug
 
Smorgass Bored said:
Well, a GUARANTEE is a GUARANTEE, so I'm certain that the UPA will be paying the players that were stiffed.
Doug
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This is a good point but is it the responsibility of the promoter or the UPA to make good on the $$? I am not being funny here, I really would like to know some explanation as to why Smorgie believes that the UPA would carry the burden of someone elses debt. I mean if I put on a tourney and slipped the $$ by the UPA and took it home with the comfort that the UPA would cover it I am sure that there are some people out there who care nothing for pool but the next scam that would be all over that. Please I would like a real clear explination so I can stand on one side of the fence or the other on this topic.
 
bfdlad said:
This is a good point but is it the responsibility of the promoter or the UPA to make good on the $$? I am not being funny here, I really would like to know some explanation as to why Smorgie believes that the UPA would carry the burden of someone elses debt. I mean if I put on a tourney and slipped the $$ by the UPA and took it home with the comfort that the UPA would cover it I am sure that there are some people out there who care nothing for pool but the next scam that would be all over that. Please I would like a real clear explination so I can stand on one side of the fence or the other on this topic.
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It is the understanding of the players that when they participate in a UPA event the UPA has guaranteed the funding either through escrow or payment up front. My understanding is that the UPA Professional players pay their membership fee each year to the UPA in part because of this service to the players that travel to and participate in the events.

I have learned from an inside source (Pro UPA Player(s)) that they will not speak out against the UPA for fear of not getting an invite to UPA invitational events but that some of them share the belief that it is the UPA's responsibility to have this money paid one way or the other.

If I joined the UPA as a member (Which I am not) under the pretense that the UPA guaranteed the funding/prize fund at events I would absolutely expect the UPA to cover it.
 
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Good point

If you compare pool to boxing, a sanctioned title fight doesn't mean the promoters will not rip the fighters off. If you win a WBA title belt, and your promoter is Don King, the WBA isn't going to pay your purse when Don rips you off. Sanctioning organizations like the Nevada State Athletic commission, etc, don't have a lot of pull other than to add some prestige to an event by associating the name with the event. The rankings and the title name are pretty much the only thread between an organization and an athlete. You would hope that an organization would be more responsible but no one wants to be caught holding the bag...and that includes the insurance and banking industry as a whole. Will litigation get the players their deserved cash settlements? Probably not, because most large judgments end in banko or are dissolved into attorney's fees. There is very little recourse when athletes are stiffed and their purses are withheld, for whatever reason. I think that the BCA & UPA need to merge so we don't have as many problems in pool as in boxing. There are like 10 title belts in each weight class in boxing. In pro pool, there are lots of pro tournaments, but they differ in classification. If one body organized and sanctioned all of them, maybe you could talk about some standards and responsibilities being set by a governing body, and maybe players wouldn't be stiffed as much, but any idealistic view isn't ever reality, is it? I know Mike Janis is a straight up dude, but the UPA isn't big enough yet to take on covering players. Go to their website, it sucks. It's never updated and is archaic. Talk about a weak organization, and you expect them to shell out some prize money?
 
MikeJanis said:
It is the understanding of the players that when they participate in a UPA event the UPA has guaranteed the funding either through escrow or payment up front. My understanding is that the UPA Professional players pay their membership fee each year to the UPA in part because of this service to the players that travel to and participate in the events.

I have learned from an inside source (Pro UPA Player(s)) that they will not speak out against the UPA for fear of not getting an invite to UPA invitational events but that some of them share the belief that it is the UPA's responsibility to have this money paid one way or the other.

If I joined the UPA as a member (Which I am not) under the pretense that the UPA guaranteed the funding/prize fund at events I would absolutely expect the UPA to cover it.
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Mike, I have heard this loud and clear twice now and I just want to make sure that I am not a numbnut. To make a long story short, if the UPA sactions any event and the $$ are not there they are responsible to make sure the players get their $$
 
Good points, sort of.... The analogy to other events does not fit. What you have to understand here is th FACT that the UPA was formed to protect the players from things like this happening. Now that that no longer protect the players or have the only WPA qualifications they have no power at all and serve no purpose.

Mj

fdambi said:
If you compare pool to boxing, a sanctioned title fight doesn't mean the promoters will not rip the fighters off. If you win a WBA title belt, and your promoter is Don King, the WBA isn't going to pay your purse when Don rips you off. Sanctioning organizations like the Nevada State Athletic commission, etc, don't have a lot of pull other than to add some prestige to an event by associating the name with the event. The rankings and the title name are pretty much the only thread between an organization and an athlete. You would hope that an organization would be more responsible but no one wants to be caught holding the bag...and that includes the insurance and banking industry as a whole. Will litigation get the players their deserved cash settlements? Probably not, because most large judgments end in banko or are dissolved into attorney's fees. There is very little recourse when athletes are stiffed and their purses are withheld, for whatever reason. I think that the BCA & UPA need to merge so we don't have as many problems in pool as in boxing. There are like 10 title belts in each weight class in boxing. In pro pool, there are lots of pro tournaments, but they differ in classification. If one body organized and sanctioned all of them, maybe you could talk about some standards and responsibilities being set by a governing body, and maybe players wouldn't be stiffed as much, but any idealistic view isn't ever reality, is it? I know Mike Janis is a straight up dude, but the UPA isn't big enough yet to take on covering players. Go to their website, it sucks. It's never updated and is archaic. Talk about a weak organization, and you expect them to shell out some prize money?
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I don't mind this thread being started...It is probably a very fair question to propose.......


I just really wish it was started by just about any other poster...Where is CocoboloCowboy when you need him.....;)
 
bfdlad said:
Mike, I have heard this loud and clear twice now and I just want to make sure that I am not a numbnut. To make a long story short, if the UPA sactions any event and the $$ are not there they are responsible to make sure the players get their $$
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Whether they are or not RESPONSIBLE is probably a matter for the courts and if their members choose to sue their professional organization that they pay their dues/fees to.

However, note that the UPA's original intent was to make things like this NOT HAPPEN to their members.

Mj
 
IF the UPA's platform is that they do NOT sanction an event where the money is NOT secured then I think that makes the UPA partially or even wholly responsible for the prize funds.

I personally do not know how exactly prize funds are secured. I don't know who holds the money and who distributes it. I don't know the legalities of things like this, nor the paperwork involved.

In my mind the promoter should place the money into a UPA bank account that is set up for prize funds. On PayDay the promoter can hand out the oversized checks but the UPA will distribute the pay.

The whole thing hinges here on the FACT that the UPA as an organization was founded because Barry Behrman shorted the players at the US Open one year. The UPA was founded on the prinicple that Guaranteed is supposed to be inviolable. If that one priniciple is something that even the UPA cannot uphold on behalf of the players then what is the need for the UPA?
 
fdambi said:
If you compare pool to boxing, a sanctioned title fight doesn't mean the promoters will not rip the fighters off. If you win a WBA title belt, and your promoter is Don King, the WBA isn't going to pay your purse when Don rips you off. Sanctioning organizations like the Nevada State Athletic commission, etc, don't have a lot of pull other than to add some prestige to an event by associating the name with the event
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lmfao, check your facts buddy

NSAC sanctioning requires prize monies be held in escrow

the NSAC is the wealthiest, most powerfull and influential Athletic Commission in the country, learn some history
 
I Don't Have A Horse In This Race, I'm Only A Concerned Former Poolplayer

bfdlad said:
This is a good point but is it the responsibility of the promoter or the UPA to make good on the $$? I am not being funny here, I really would like to know some explanation as to why Smorgie believes that the UPA would carry the burden of someone elses debt.
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I would have answered you, but I'd only be reiterating what Mr. Janis and Mr. Barton have said so far.
Doug
 
Mike.. finally~

I figured someone would bring this up. If the UPA is going to put their name on something (and charge membership fee), then they ought to make sure the tournament can pay out.

I love the little tours that ask the home room to put up all the $$$, then offer to put their 'name' on the tournament and use it towards points or tour stops. Gee.. thanks! lol
 
Josh Palmer said:
I figured someone would bring this up. If the UPA is going to put their name on something (and charge membership fee), then they ought to make sure the tournament can pay out.

I love the little tours that ask the home room to put up all the $$$, then offer to put their 'name' on the tournament and use it towards points or tour stops. Gee.. thanks! lol
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What am I chopped liver :-) I brought this up in a couple threads prior. Don't give that lazy no-count Mike Janis all the credit. :D
 
BRKNRUN said:
I don't mind this thread being started...It is probably a very fair question to propose.......


I just really wish it was started by just about any other poster...Where is CocoboloCowboy when you need him.....;)
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May I ask why you feel that way?
 
Smorgass Bored said:
Well, a GUARANTEE is a GUARANTEE, so I'm certain that the UPA will be paying the players that were stiffed.
Doug
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Pass that pipe over here please. Johnnyt
 
JB Cases said:
What am I chopped liver :-) I brought this up in a couple threads prior. Don't give that lazy no-count Mike Janis all the credit. :D
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No.. You're not chopped liver John! I saw that gunfighter case you built that IndyQ bought.. Holy smokes! I'm not worthy!
 
They perform clerical work.
 
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By sanctioning this event the UPA most definately made a statement that the Desert Shootout tournament prize monies were guarenteed to be paid out. This is exactly what the UPA mandate states and it is a requirement of the sanctioning that the prize monies are assured beforehand. This IS what the UPA charges their membership fees for and they are responsible for tournaments that they decide to put their name behind because that sanctioning comes with certain guarentees that the UPA makes.

I am unsure why the players would support and defend an organization that manages to mess these types of things up and not live up to it's mandate and protect it's own players. Then again we tend to read statements from the same 3-4 players over and over again defending the UPA, I would wonder what the other 90%+ of the players think...
 
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