Where is the cue ball going to go? Tried and true learning method?

[tonemachine]

Hello. Is there a tried and true method (drill) for training my brain to know where a centerball-shot CB is going to go with only natural roll after striking the OB ?

I'm confounded by this after many false starts at trying to grasp it so I just want to head on the right path this time. I feel that my conundrum is akin to the people who can't just see how to aim. Aiming and executing shots has always been so obvious to me so I sort of wonder if I just don't "have it in me" to learn this concept since I have yet to figure it out.

I'm a decent player, used to be much better (at shooting, always a weak shape maker). I understand the concepts of the 90 degree and 30 degree rule, I understand spin and can use it "correctly" to move the CB around.... only very roughly. 90 degree sliding CB, I get. Rolling CB, forget it. Even Dr Dave's "peace sign" method doesn't work all that well for me. I have and have read several books on pool

My home table is littered with gummed dots for practice a la Robert Byrne but I'm still missing the fundamental eye for leaves despite hours and hours of various drills with so much other stuff to watch on the table. So, again, what can be done to specifically focus on getting it into my brain "on which line is the CB naturally going to roll" on any given cut shot? I know it may seem ridiculous to not see the answer, just as I don't understand (I say that without judging) how people can't see shooting angles. I know that those people can be taught so how do people who don't see, more or less, precise angle of deflection learn this?

Thank you in advance.

 

[Scott Lee]

tonemachine...Check your PM's!

Scott Lee
http://poolknowledge.com

 

[Donny Lutz]

It's only one shot.

Hello. Is there a tried and true method (drill) for training my brain to know where the CB is going to go after striking the OB?

I'm confounded by this after many false starts at trying to grasp it so I just want to head on the right path this time. I feel that my conundrum is akin to the people who can't just see how to aim. Aiming and executing shots has always been so obvious to me so I sort of wonder if I just don't "have it in me" to learn this concept since I have yet to figure it out.

I'm a decent player, used to be much better (at shooting, always a weak shape maker). I understand the concepts of the 90 degree and 30 degree rule, I understand spin and can use it "correctly" to move the CB around.... only very roughly. 90 degree sliding CB, I get. Rolling CB, forget it. Even Dr Dave's "peace sign" method doesn't work all that well for me. I have and have read several books on pool

My home table is littered with gummed dots for practice a la Robert Byrne but I'm still missing the fundamental eye for leaves despite hours and hours of various drills with so much other stuff to watch on the table. So, again, what can be done to specifically focus on getting it into my brain "on which line is the CB naturally going to roll" on any given cut shot? I know it may seem ridiculous to not see the answer, just as I don't understand (I say that without judging) how people can't see shooting angles. I know that those people can be taught so how do people who don't see, more or less, precise angle of deflection learn this?

Thank you in advance.

As I've mentioned on AZ before and in my P&B articles...

Most players learn to pocket balls and then sometime later, to think about where the cue ball is going after contact.

Do not think of potting balls and playing position as two different efforts. They are both accomplished with one shot, not two.

It rather simply involves paying attention to what the cue ball does on every shot and how force, spin and collision with object balls and rails affect the path of the CB.

For example, when you strike an object ball head on with a rolling cue ball, the CB will travel about one seventh the distance as the object ball. Hitting one half of the object ball with a rolling cue ball causes both balls to travel about the same distance.

Once you have learned such principles you don't have to think about them on every shot. Your memory will do this for you and you will know what's going to happen on most shots. Thus the learning process involves experimentation and remembering the results.

 

[FranCrimi]

Doing the math can be helpful but it will only get you to a certain point.

My suggestion to you is to let go of the math and calculations for now (that knowledge won't go away --- It will still be in your head) and just play.

Knowing where the cue ball will go is a combination of knowledge and feel. You've been working on the knowledge part, now focus on the feel part.

Even though you may feel like you're not getting anywhere --- you are. You have to just keep playing, and then someday something will click and you will start to get the hang of it. You will start to feel where the cue ball is going.

 

[rrick33]

I would suggest you learn to identify the tangent line. The cue ball always follows the tangent line after contact with the object ball but the angle of deflection can be modified based on the level of top spin or bottom spin in effect at the time of contact with the object ball. If the cue ball is sliding at the time of contact with the object ball, it has no top or draw in effect and will stay on the tangent line.

If you use the tangent line as a benchmark then it becomes easy to determine how much top or draw is required to create the angle of deflection you're looking for. Of course speed is another element altogether. You'll have to pull the two pieces together to perfect your position.

A good exercise for this is to practice stop shots at various distances since a stop shot is essentially a cue ball that has no top or draw in effect at the moment of contact with the object ball......It's basically sliding. Once you can execute a stop shot on straight- in shots effectively, you can then determine your angle of deflection on cut shots by adjusting how much slide, draw or top spin you want on the cue ball at the time of contact.

 

[tonemachine]

Thank you all for the comments.

Last night I found an apparently well-known drill and tailored it to my brain this morning. I will post pics and details later. I totally get where all of you are coming from with regard to feel vs "math/calculations." Thats what I want and where I've been stuck, respectively, despite trying to watch the CB for years. I'm obviously a little slow on the uptake in this regard! Presumably none of you will need it but I'll post for others like me who have been stuck trying to "get there." Again, thanks.

 

[bbb]

Thank you all for the comments.

Last night I found an apparently well-known drill and tailored it to my brain this morning. I will post pics and details later. I totally get where all of you are coming from with regard to feel vs "math/calculations." Thats what I want and where I've been stuck, respectively, despite trying to watch the CB for years. I'm obviously a little slow on the uptake in this regard! Presumably none of you will need it but I'll post for others like me who have been stuck trying to "get there." Again, thanks.

look forward to see what material has helped you

 

[JAMSGOLF]

Thank you all for the comments.

Last night I found an apparently well-known drill and tailored it to my brain this morning. I will post pics and details later. I totally get where all of you are coming from with regard to feel vs "math/calculations." Thats what I want and where I've been stuck, respectively, despite trying to watch the CB for years. I'm obviously a little slow on the uptake in this regard! Presumably none of you will need it but I'll post for others like me who have been stuck trying to "get there." Again, thanks.

I too struggle with what you're going through...knowing the 90/30 angles etc...and also feel I should've "gotten it" a long time ago. I'm seriously looking forward to seeing what you post.

 

[bbb]

the wagon wheel drill is a great way to learn where or better said how to make the cue ball go where you want to
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b42018ceoE

 

[One Pocket John]

Doing the math can be helpful but it will only get you to a certain point.

My suggestion to you is to let go of the math and calculations for now (that knowledge won't go away --- It will still be in your head) and just play.

Knowing where the cue ball will go is a combination of knowledge and feel. You've been working on the knowledge part, now focus on the feel part.

Even though you may feel like you're not getting anywhere --- you are. You have to just keep playing, and then someday something will click and you will start to get the hang of it. You will start to feel where the cue ball is going.

Just lurking Fran.

Thanks for the reminder. :smile:

John

 

[JAMSGOLF]

the wagon wheel drill is a great way to learn where or better said how to make the cue ball go where you want to
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b42018ceoE

Thanks for posting that one! I've seen the diagram, but was nice to see the visual.

 

[3RAILKICK]

I am not an instructor.

Fran has mentioned that with enough observation and experience, one can learn to ''feel" what the cb is going to do, given the angle, speed and type of stroke delivered, and where the ob is struck. That has been my experience too.



You mentioned that you are looking for a way to 'get' what a 'rolling' cb is going to do after striking the ob.

Be aware that there are several models of, and methods of rolling the cb (natural, force follow, roll after the slide or draw wears off, etc)...they may react differently...each has to be observed and cataloged in your experience files .

The collision physics, 90/30 degree concepts, etc., are reliable and repeatable when you have a reliable and repeatable stroke administering the appropriate cb stroke type. The science doesn't lie. This is the why, that explains the what, that the cb is doing, that you are observing and feeling.

For yucks...set up an easy cut to the side, with the cb about 2 diamonds away...about 3/4 ball cut. Since you 'see' the cut angle pretty well..dial in on that alignment.

With that alignment, take note of where the center of the cb points to on the far side of the ob equator. Visualize a (cb travel line) line, from ob internal center thru that 'far side' EXIT POINT'; extending to ??? a ball, a diamond, a place for a good safety leave, etc.

Hit the shot with a 'natural rolling' cb. Not force follow. Take note of how close you were able to predict the cb path. It may run out of steam before it gets to where you want...that's OK. The focus is on predicting the post collision cb path direction. Later you can test the limit of speed for rolling vs force follow and anticipatate modifications to that exit point travel path for the cb.

Try it for yucks...you might like it.

Someone showed me...now I use it alot..especially on breaking out clusters with BIH, two way shots, hiding behind blockers after traveling half or full table...many uses...and very vision/feel oriented.

As well as you see angles....this could fit well in your cb position tool box.

Have fun.

Take care.


....student of the game/not an instructor...apologies to credentialed intructors..:grin-square::grin-square:

 

[JAMSGOLF]

the wagon wheel drill is a great way to learn where or better said how to make the cue ball go where you want to
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-b42018ceoE

So, I went through this drill last night...and as expected, I could easily replicate the drill...

Where my problem is coming in (and I thought this was the OP's issue as well) is that I can't seem to "see" or predict this during a game where the angles aren't setup like the drill. I think I'm a pretty smart feller...and I know I should be able to transfer the info from the drill...but for some reason I'm getting mentally blocked when playing.

 

[JAMSGOLF]

Ok...so this has really been bugging me since yesterday.

I think where I'm messing up is that I'm forgetting to calculate the decreasing deflection angle for the decreasing contact hit on the object ball. I Teiresias to find the actual graph in this video from Dr. Dave, but got tired of looking for it. He also has the graph on his "proofs" page.

Video describing the decreasing angles:

http://billiards.colostate.edu/normal_videos/NV3-9.htm

 

[michael4]

https://angleofreflection.wordpress.com/2009/11/11/the-seven-day-miracle-part-4-of-7/


related to the topic.............

 

[ChrisWoj]

I would suggest you learn to identify the tangent line. The cue ball always follows the tangent line after contact with the object ball but the angle of deflection can be modified based on the level of top spin or bottom spin in effect at the time of contact with the object ball. If the cue ball is sliding at the time of contact with the object ball, it has no top or draw in effect and will stay on the tangent line.

If you use the tangent line as a benchmark then it becomes easy to determine how much top or draw is required to create the angle of deflection you're looking for. Of course speed is another element altogether. You'll have to pull the two pieces together to perfect your position.

A good exercise for this is to practice stop shots at various distances since a stop shot is essentially a cue ball that has no top or draw in effect at the moment of contact with the object ball......It's basically sliding. Once you can execute a stop shot on straight- in shots effectively, you can then determine your angle of deflection on cut shots by adjusting how much slide, draw or top spin you want on the cue ball at the time of contact.

Agree totally with this. I pretty much do what he's saying before every session of shooting - if possible 30 minutes of stop shots, and then about 15 of follow and draw each. Work from a few angles. The one thing that I've noticed I miss whenever I'm not getting things down right from there is - I'm thinking only about what the english is doing when I strike the ball. When I put my thought to "how will the ball be spinning on contact with the object ball" my leaves are invariably better and it isn't even close.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

You'll speed up your learning process if you make specific predictions where the CB will go and then compare the actual result with your prediction. You can do this while playing any game or working on any drill - just place a coin or piece of chalk on the rail where you expect the CB to hit it. This prediction/comparison gives your brain something concrete to "measure", which will make learning faster and more precise.

pj
chgo

 

[RiverCity]

You'll speed up your learning process if you make specific predictions where the CB will go and then compare the actual result with your prediction. You can do this while playing any game or working on any drill - just place a coin or piece of chalk on the rail where you expect the CB to hit it. This prediction/comparison gives your brain something concrete to "measure", which will make learning faster and more precise.

pj
chgo

Another good version of this is with a sheet of notebook paper or a bar napkin for practice purposes. Having a definite target will help when it comes to adjusting and correcting speed, spin etc.
The old adage "aim small, miss small" applies.

 

[FranCrimi]

You'll speed up your learning process if you make specific predictions where the CB will go and then compare the actual result with your prediction. You can do this while playing any game or working on any drill - just place a coin or piece of chalk on the rail where you expect the CB to hit it. This prediction/comparison gives your brain something concrete to "measure", which will make learning faster and more precise.

pj
chgo

I agree with this, except for walking around and placing a coin or chalk. I realize it's just practice or drills, however, it's training the mind to break the player's rhythm. Your sub conscious mind doesn't process that it's just a drill or just practice.

I think you can do this without breaking your rhythm, but rather by using every second in a productive way. Players waste a lot of seconds at the table between shots. When you're standing up deciding on what to do, guess the path of the cue ball and then shoot the shot. Then when you're done, be more efficient with your time and quickly evaluate the result. You'll know if you got where you guessed or not.

I think this is a better way to train for actual game-play.

 

[bobprobst]

One thing I've done for years to get a good feel for cueball control is to play a game with myself where I put a single ball on the table and try to scratch off of that ball. Keep score of how many you can make in a row.

Start with CB behind the string and OB a half diamond off the center foot rail. The first scratch can be made in either corner with a firm draw stroke and the cueball about a diamond off the head spot. Aim at the opposite edge of the OB and the cueball will slide right in the corner.

After each scratch put the CB anywhere behind the string on the opposite end of the table where the OB ends up.

This has helped me visualize how to get the CB to go exactly where I want on a variety of shots. You'll also start being able to carom in hangers from all over the place.