Where to start with kick shots?

[boogieman]

Serious question. It just seems easier to make 2/3 rail kicks than 1 railers for me. My bank game is stronger than most. I have no problem banking balls. Is that normal? Or did I just skip the basics again?

A little more in depth on this is when there is a kick shot out there I’ll see the 2/3 railer right away and can make it a lot of times. Even if ball is in the middle of the table, but the 1 railer is a total “kick” in the balls for me. I just don’t see it. I see the bank shot. Or even a crafty double kiss(that is so inaccurate I almost never try it)

I’m talking the ones near the rail mostly. Middle of table is not the kick I’m talking about. And a Ball hanging inthe pocket is usually in as it should be a pretty accurate/standard shot for any mid range or above.

I have found that 1 rail kicks work best with high with no side spin at all. It simplifies aiming them. There are times when you need to use spin on a 1 rail kick, but those times are pretty rare. I'd say practice them with no side spin and high english. You'll get a feel for them, it's basically mirror image with some adjustment on where to hit the rail if the table banks short or long. Speed is somewhat important but it takes hitting some balls to make the adjustments. If you use side spin at all it greatly amplifies the difficulty of 1 rail kicks.

I play with much better players. They used to leave me kicks constantly. I got enough practice that I started making them a lot. Getting a hit isn't hard at all for me now when kicking. Once you're on to it you will start to choose which side (left right middle) of the ball you hit. Once you get consistent at that you can actually pinpoint where you want to hit for kicks into cuts and such.

EDIT: I forgot one important thing, instead of using english to modify the ball's path, IF AT ALL POSSIBLE use where you aim on the rail and cue ball speed to change angles. IMO it's easier to change the angle of a 1 rail kick with speed than with english.

 

[Patrick Johnson]

I have found that 1 rail kicks work best with high with no side spin at all. It simplifies aiming them.

I agree, but there is one adjustment needed with a rolling CB - the forward rotation on the CB causes it to masse long after rebounding, so it needs to be aimed a little short of the equal-angle aimpoint in front of the cushion nose. The correct target is usually near the diamond on the rail behind the cushion nose, as shown in the examples below - that has the advantage of being self-adjusting (more adjustment for wider angles; less adjustment for steeper angles).

pj
chgo

 

[boogieman]

I agree, but there is one adjustment needed with a rolling CB - the forward rotation on the CB causes it to masse long after rebounding, so it needs to be aimed a little short of the equal-angle aimpoint in front of the cushion nose. The correct target is usually near the diamond on the rail behind the cushion nose, as shown in the examples below - that has the advantage of being self-adjusting (more adjustment for wider angles; less adjustment for steeper angles).

pj
chgo

View attachment 639700
View attachment 639701

Nice! I've never really thought about this, but I've been doing it. I got to the point of feel through brute forcing the situation. I did notice that I aim closer to the place where the diamonds are and not on the cushion point. Very helpful diagram to help understand what's going on. That may have saved me a few months of learning time!

I also didn't realize the masse effect, but it makes sense.

 

[Bob Jewett]

.... In a sense I never felt a huge need for good kicks ....

That's the way a lot of American pros felt about their kicks at nine ball until Efren showed up.

Here's a good page to start from:

Diamond Systems for Aiming Kick Shots - Dr. Dave Pool Info

How do diamond systems work? All of the most common and useful banking and kicking systems (those listed below, and others) are described, illustrated, and demonstrated on Vol. IV of the Video Encyclopedia of Pool Shots. Here’s an introduction to the most important diamond systems: The simplest...

billiards.colostate.edu

Here are some of the topics discussed there:

The simplest diamond systems are the equal-distance mirror system and the through-diamond rolling-ball system.
For shallow angles into the rail, where the OB is fairly close to the rail, the contact-point mirror system for shallow-angle, rolling kick shots works well.
The most famous”diamond system” is the Corner 5 System for aiming three-rail kicks off long rail.
Another famous diamond system is the Plus System for two-rail kicks off short rail.
Spot-on-the-wall kicking systems offer an alternative to formula-based systems.
Here’s an article on Jimmy Reid’s 3-rail systems.
Liberty Games has a nice online illustrated summary of diamond systems here: Introduction To The Pool Diamond System.
Here’s a simple summary with examples, from Marcel Elfers, showing how to apply the Corner-5 System and Spot-on-the-Wall Systems to 3-rail kick shots. This document numbers the diamonds in 10’s instead of the standard 1’s to eliminate the need for fractions or decimals (e.g., 15 vs. 1 1/2 or 1.5).
from DeadAim on AZB:

complete “kicking academy” document describing and illustrating many diamond systems for kick shots.

 

[Chili Palmer]

I'm not saying a good base of using high English when kicking is bad but, if you don't understand the finer points of minute changes in left/right English you will never be proficient with 1 rail kicks, experience is another thing needed. Repetition, repetition, repetition.

Another excellent way to learn is to play kick safe.

 

[Bob Jewett]

For one-rail kicks without sidespin there is a hidden helper. If you can get close to no sidespin on the cue ball and the shot is not too short to the first rail or too fast, the table will help you get no sidespin at all. That's because a small amount of sidespin will wear off on a long run to the first cushion. (The spin is lost faster than the cue ball losing its speed rolling across the cloth. If they both dissipated at the same rate, the spin would match the speed over the whole length of the shot.)

I ran into this effect in a bad way on a snooker table with napped cloth. There the sidespin comes off really fast on slow shots so if you are trying to spin off a far rail to get a hit you have to start the cue ball with far more sidespin than on Simonis pool cloth.

 

[couldnthinkof01]

Playing all your kicks at a consistent speed helps to dial them in. So many people I see use too much speed.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Playing all your kicks at a consistent speed helps to dial them in. So many people I see use too much speed.

I think a lot of players fail to visualize any complete shot when they kick to hit. They are just trying to hit the ball and since they have no particular hit in mind they crank up the speed to get more separation, maybe.

 

[boogieman]

Playing all your kicks at a consistent speed helps to dial them in. So many people I see use too much speed.

Very true!

I like to give them enough speed so they will pocket and maybe roll a half diamond (or more) if they miss and bounce. Don't want to leave a missed ball an inch in front of a pocket, better to overdo it and leave it a bit further away.

If it's 9B, I'll give them another rails worth of speed in case they miss I may get lucky. It all depends on the angles and most importantly where I can hide the CB or eliminate shots/next position if I were to miss.

There's no shame in taking a free shot at something if you're guaranteed to leave nothing for your opponent. You gotta look for stuff like this, even with slim chance to pocket you may see a safe you can pull off if it accidentally missed.

Kind of like 1P thinking here, leave the threats and give them no way to do anything remotely useful. Take a free roll/shot when you can, especially if it keeps control of the table.

 

[philly]

Very true!

I like to give them enough speed so they will pocket and maybe roll a half diamond (or more) if they miss and bounce. Don't want to leave a missed ball an inch in front of a pocket, better to overdo it and leave it a bit further away.

If it's 9B, I'll give them another rails worth of speed in case they miss I may get lucky. It all depends on the angles and most importantly where I can hide the CB or eliminate shots/next position if I were to miss.

There's no shame in taking a free shot at something if you're guaranteed to leave nothing for your opponent. You gotta look for stuff like this, even with slim chance to pocket you may see a safe you can pull off if it accidentally missed.

Kind of like 1P thinking here, leave the threats and give them no way to do anything remotely useful. Take a free roll/shot when you can, especially if it keeps control of the table.

Guaranteed to leave nothing for your opponents?
How does that happen?
I have played some pretty strong players, especially in one pocket, where there was nothing until they found plenty to work with.

The speed of every kick shot is determined on where you want whitey to end up either for
position on your next ball or a nice lock down safety for your opponent.
No kick shot is the same therefore they all must be handled at different speeds.

 

[boogieman]

Guaranteed to leave nothing for your opponents?
How does that happen?
I have played some pretty strong players, especially in one pocket, where there was nothing until they found plenty to work with.

The speed of every kick shot is determined on where you want whitey to end up either for
position on your next ball or a nice lock down safety for your opponent.
No kick shot is the same therefore they all must be handled at different speeds.

We're in agreement, I just didn't fully expand on what I was saying. If given a choice I default to those, if whitey needs to do something, I hit it so it has a chance to do said something.

 

[couldnthinkof01]

If speed ranges from 1-10.
95% of kick shots need to be hit 3-5 speed?
Like Bob was saying conceptualization of the entire shot before you get down, makes all the difference.

 

[Black-Balled]

If speed ranges from 1-10.
95% of kick shots need to be hit 3-5 speed?
Like Bob was saying conceptualization of the entire shot before you get down, makes all the difference.

And the Jewett rule about spin/ speed/ distance should always be recalled.

When xb comes off a rail, it generally has rail induced sidespin. Object balls close to the rail have a different strike point to pocket than one would think.

 

[capt hook]

Serious question. It just seems easier to make 2/3 rail kicks than 1 railers for me. My bank game is stronger than most. I have no problem banking balls. Is that normal? Or did I just skip the basics again?

A little more in depth on this is when there is a kick shot out there I’ll see the 2/3 railer right away and can make it a lot of times. Even if ball is in the middle of the table, but the 1 railer is a total “kick” in the balls for me. I just don’t see it. I see the bank shot. Or even a crafty double kiss(that is so inaccurate I almost never try it)

I’m talking the ones near the rail mostly. Middle of table is not the kick I’m talking about. And a Ball hanging inthe pocket is usually in as it should be a pretty accurate/standard shot for any mid range or above.

watch the Here After Media video on kicking. This weird system works

 

[gregcantrall]

Coming in late so might be a second. IMHO the place to start is, Billiards as it should be played, by Hoppe.

 

[Bob Jewett]

Coming in late so might be a second. IMHO the place to start is, Billiards as it should be played, by Hoppe.

For the corner-5 and especially for the landing spot on the fourth cushion, the explanation by Bob Byrne is much, much better than Hoppe.

 

[Saturated Fats]

I still say it’s cheating aiming with your stick. Those were the rules back then.

That's pretty hard to believe. Sounds like local rules. Really local!

 

[ShootingArts]

A simple question few ask: Is the cue ball the same as the other balls? On a Valley type bar table it most surely ain't and in many other trays of balls the cue ball isn't the same either. Try coming off a few rails with the cue ball and letting it roll to a stop. Do the same thing with an object ball, hitting each with your cue stick. Did the two balls end up traveling down the same path? Did they roll to the same place?

Answer no to either question and you now know you have to have a separate set of standards for banks and kicks which is the story more often than not. It rarely works to lump banks and kicks together. Having a table wired for banks doesn't necessarily mean you have it wired for kicks too.

Hu