Which Stroke Should I Use?

BeiberLvr

BeiberLvr

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Just looking for a little advice.

Like a lot of players (imo), when I first started really getting into pool and trying to define my stroke, I would constantly try to do the Filipino "bicycle/pump" stroke. Then I switched over to a more text book style stroke.

Recently I've been using the Filipino style stroke more often, and here are some observations I've made.

There's a lot more movement in my shoulder, mostly during warm up strokes and a very small shoulder movement on the back stroke. However, the final forward motion is all lower arm. I also find that I play much better in the sense that I don't really think about fundamentals at all when I'm shooting that way, so it seems that my subconscious is in more control and it's easier to get into a zone while playing.

The downside is that I'm nowhere near as consistent as I am with the textbook stroke. Meaning some days I play great, and others I don't. Where as with the textbook stroke, I'm pretty much always on my game for the most part, but I can never seem to reach that next level.

I thought about sticking with the Filipino style stroke for a few weeks and doing some basic drills. I figured if I stick with it, maybe I'll eventually gain that same level of consistency. My only fear is that I'll find that I can't ever be as consistent, and might end up being a waste of time that could of been spent on more important things.

At a crossroads it seems.
 
The basic philosophical principal here is to keep it simple. The orthodox argument is that the more complicated you make the motion, the more things there are to go wrong, especially if timing is important.

Some players fix some particular problem in their fundamentals by adding complexity. An example of this would be addressing the cue ball lower than they finally hit it because they have pre-impact elbow drop and that's the only way they can hit where they want. I think it's better to eliminate the original problem.
 
Quit it .
Learn the salute stroke from Scott and your game will go up.
Hey Scott, ring me up when you come by.
I got a surprise for you.
 
BeiberLvr said:
Just looking for a little advice.

Like a lot of players (imo), when I first started really getting into pool and trying to define my stroke, I would constantly try to do the Filipino "bicycle/pump" stroke. Then I switched over to a more text book style stroke.

Recently I've been using the Filipino style stroke more often, and here are some observations I've made.

There's a lot more movement in my shoulder, mostly during warm up strokes and a very small shoulder movement on the back stroke. However, the final forward motion is all lower arm. I also find that I play much better in the sense that I don't really think about fundamentals at all when I'm shooting that way, so it seems that my subconscious is in more control and it's easier to get into a zone while playing.

The downside is that I'm nowhere near as consistent as I am with the textbook stroke. Meaning some days I play great, and others I don't. Where as with the textbook stroke, I'm pretty much always on my game for the most part, but I can never seem to reach that next level.

I thought about sticking with the Filipino style stroke for a few weeks and doing some basic drills. I figured if I stick with it, maybe I'll eventually gain that same level of consistency. My only fear is that I'll find that I can't ever be as consistent, and might end up being a waste of time that could of been spent on more important things.

At a crossroads it seems.
Click to expand...

The Filipino stroke is not a pumping motion. It's more like a figure 8 or a continuous loop. You must understand the stroke before you can attempt to mimic it. If you really want to learn it, then you should spend time with someone who uses it correctly and have them teach you. Otherwise, you'll get it wrong.
 
FranCrimi said:
The Filipino stroke is not a pumping motion. It's more like a figure 8 or a continuous loop. You must understand the stroke before you can attempt to mimic it. If you really want to learn it, then you should spend time with someone who uses it correctly and have them teach you. Otherwise, you'll get it wrong.
Click to expand...

You're right. When I'm doing the stroke, it really does feel like there's so much more movement in my arm. So I think that's why I compared it to a Filipino stroke. However, when I watched a video I recorded yesterday, it doesn't really look all that bad. The shoulder movement on the backswing is hardly noticeable.
 
A few years ago I was told by a former US Open winner that I HAD to build a stroke for when the one GOD gave me went on the fritz.. We played for 3 days and I went from steam roller to steam iron before we were done....

He told me frankly that when my stroke was working I had as much firepower as anyone but when it wasn't 100% I had no where to go....

I had started out on Friday at an A+ level stringing packages and by Sunday all 4 wheels were off and I couldn't get out of a wet paper bag......

He pointed out that learning to win without your "A" game was one of the things that made all the difference between a pro speed player and a short stop....

I'm still working on building a stroke that holds up when my natural one goes in the tank and it's a hard thing to buy into...

My opinion is that the level pendulum stroke is likely only good enough to get you to a high B level... I think the touch and finesse required to play at a higher level come from your natural stroke....

My beliefs lead me to tell you to use your natural stroke when it's working and to continue to work on your fundamentals and building a stroke that may not be as high powered but is dependable for times when you don't need or have your high powered stroke firing on all cylinders...

I kind of look at it like owning 2 cars... 1 of my cars is a race car and when it's tuned properly and running right nothing on the track may be able to keep up with it that day... Man its a thrill to take it out and enjoy the ride... But the thing is it is prone to breaking down so it's a bad choice to drive to the store or to work.... If I am headed out to work or the store I have my dependable daily driver... It's not real fast or flashy but it gets me where I need to go and back like clockwork...

This is why I have such a hard time at least... I always want to drive the race car when I should be putting in my practice time with the daily driver.....

Chris
 
The Renfro said:
A few years ago I was told by a former US Open winner that I HAD to build a stroke for when the one GOD gave me went on the fritz.. We played for 3 days and I went from steam roller to steam iron before we were done....

He told me frankly that when my stroke was working I had as much firepower as anyone but when it wasn't 100% I had no where to go....

I had started out on Friday at an A+ level stringing packages and by Sunday all 4 wheels were off and I couldn't get out of a wet paper bag......

He pointed out that learning to win without your "A" game was one of the things that made all the difference between a pro speed player and a short stop....

I'm still working on building a stroke that holds up when my natural one goes in the tank and it's a hard thing to buy into...

My opinion is that the level pendulum stroke is likely only good enough to get you to a high B level... I think the touch and finesse required to play at a higher level come from your natural stroke....

My beliefs lead me to tell you to use your natural stroke when it's working and to continue to work on your fundamentals and building a stroke that may not be as high powered but is dependable for times when you don't need or have your high powered stroke firing on all cylinders...

I kind of look at it like owning 2 cars... 1 of my cars is a race car and when it's tuned properly and running right nothing on the track may be able to keep up with it that day... Man its a thrill to take it out and enjoy the ride... But the thing is it is prone to breaking down so it's a bad choice to drive to the store or to work.... If I am headed out to work or the store I have my dependable daily driver... It's not real fast or flashy but it gets me where I need to go and back like clockwork...

This is why I have such a hard time at least... I always want to drive the race car when I should be putting in my practice time with the daily driver.....

Chris
Click to expand...

Chris,

I think a agree with much of what you are saying, but just to clarify, what do you mean by a 'level' pendulum stroke?

The 'pendulum' sroke is not level (IMHO). The tip goes down when the butt comes up, then the tip comes up when the butt goes down, & finally the tip goes down through contact whlle the butt is coming back up again.

I see nothing 'level' in a 'pendulum' stroke except for a fraction of time & space at the change of the up & down directions, which can be just before, during, or just after contact depending on the level of perfection of the set-up.

Thanks in advance for any clarification.

Regards to You &
 
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The Renfro said:
A few years ago I was told by a former US Open winner that I HAD to build a stroke for when the one GOD gave me went on the fritz.. We played for 3 days and I went from steam roller to steam iron before we were done....

He told me frankly that when my stroke was working I had as much firepower as anyone but when it wasn't 100% I had no where to go....

I had started out on Friday at an A+ level stringing packages and by Sunday all 4 wheels were off and I couldn't get out of a wet paper bag......

He pointed out that learning to win without your "A" game was one of the things that made all the difference between a pro speed player and a short stop....

I'm still working on building a stroke that holds up when my natural one goes in the tank and it's a hard thing to buy into...

My opinion is that the level pendulum stroke is likely only good enough to get you to a high B level... I think the touch and finesse required to play at a higher level come from your natural stroke....

My beliefs lead me to tell you to use your natural stroke when it's working and to continue to work on your fundamentals and building a stroke that may not be as high powered but is dependable for times when you don't need or have your high powered stroke firing on all cylinders...

I kind of look at it like owning 2 cars... 1 of my cars is a race car and when it's tuned properly and running right nothing on the track may be able to keep up with it that day... Man its a thrill to take it out and enjoy the ride... But the thing is it is prone to breaking down so it's a bad choice to drive to the store or to work.... If I am headed out to work or the store I have my dependable daily driver... It's not real fast or flashy but it gets me where I need to go and back like clockwork...

This is why I have such a hard time at least... I always want to drive the race car when I should be putting in my practice time with the daily driver.....

Chris
Click to expand...

I have to disagree. I was at the DCC for one day, and observed some of the best of the best almost all exclusively had a pendulum stroke. SVB, John Brumback, John Morra, Jeanette Lee. We watched entire matches with all of these players have a very crisp, well controlled pendulum stroke with a clearly defined transitions with virtually no elbow drop.

Are there times when you have to modify the pendulum stroke for certain circumstances? yes, there are but it isn't a different stroke, it is a modification. Changing your stroke creates confusion in the mind... but if there are inconsistencies in your "natural god given stroke" those need to be addressed.

Let me just conclude with this, "If you continue to do what you've always done, you will continue to get what you always got."
 
ENGLISH! said:
Chris,

I think a agree with much of what you are saying, but just to clarify, what do you mean by a 'level' pendulum stroke?

The 'pendulum' sroke is not level (IMHO). The tip goes down when the butt comes up, then the tip comes up when the butt goes down, & finally the tip goes down through contact whlle the butt is coming back up again.

I see nothing 'level' in a 'pendulum' stroke except for a fraction of time & space at the change of the up & down directions, which can be just before, during, or just after contact depending on the level of perfection of the set-up.

Thanks in advance for any clarification.

Regards to You &
Click to expand...

in the classic pendulum the arm is at 90 degrees to the cue at contact and the cue is placed as level to the table as possible... The only moving part is the forearm, the grip is neutral and the wrist is only along for the ride.....
 
boyersj said:
I have to disagree. I was at the DCC for one day, and observed some of the best of the best almost all exclusively had a pendulum stroke. SVB, John Brumback, John Morra, Jeanette Lee. We watched entire matches with all of these players have a very crisp, well controlled pendulum stroke with a clearly defined transitions with virtually no elbow drop.

Are there times when you have to modify the pendulum stroke for certain circumstances? yes, there are but it isn't a different stroke, it is a modification. Changing your stroke creates confusion in the mind... but if there are inconsistencies in your "natural god given stroke" those need to be addressed.

Let me just conclude with this, "If you continue to do what you've always done, you will continue to get what you always got."
Click to expand...

SVB is forward of 90 at impact, sets a his wrist firm and drops his elbow...

Morra is close to a pendulum but drops the elbow and actually has his arm turned slightly under to get his cue inside his left eye....

Brumback uses more attack angles than most anyone you will watch and tends to always have elevation in his stroke.... The forearm swing and elbow drop are almost a onepiece motion for John.. Classic Piston...

Jeanette Lee you may be right on about... Never watched her since she doesn't play in the men's events she doesn't end up on the TV table.....

The descriptions on the other 3 are accurate... There are personal deviations from the classic pendulum for all of them......

I have no way to know how close to their natural strokes the strokes they employ really are... I do know from watching Shane shoot challenge shots with Alex for $100 a shot that when Shane uncorks his big stroke that he clears his head and adds a bunch of wrist to his stroke....

The one perk I get to do on every TV match is to watch the player's strokes and replay them in slow motion... I handle the scoring and instant replays so it's more of a job than a perk... The closest player to a classic pendulum is likely Thorsten Hohmann... If you remove the elbow drop from the end of his stroke his fundamentals are classic....

Chris
 
BeiberLvr said:
I think you can say the same about Niels.

Oh, and here's a video of the stroke.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nW9FC5q-WU&feature=youtu.be
Click to expand...

Niels looked as good as I have seen him at DCC this year but he has added a wrist roll to some of his shots... I have 2 slo-mos I will post on youtube when I get a chance to show it...

As far as your video I don't see a ton of things that are problem causing... The elbow drop you have is clearly after contact and very minimal... The raising up before the stroke isn't high enough to cause inconsistencies...

what I do see with the video is that the stroke you are using is very wristy.. As in I think you are using the wrist action to control the speed and cueball action you are looking for....

This can cause a timing issue when you bring the wrist thru early or late which will likely show up when you are powering up a shot or trying to hit it super soft....

As long as you are hitting balls regularly I don't think it will be a problem but you may want to work on building a stroke for those extreme ends that will keep you from missing balls because of inaccurate cueball contact because of timing... for the other 95% of your shots I think the stroke looks very solid....

Chris
 
The Renfro said:
I kind of look at it like owning 2 cars...
Click to expand...

Chris, I've been working on 2 strokes as well. The "Earl Stroke" is probably my more natural stroke, and the "Alex Stroke" is for that 70% of the time when I'm not in the zone. That short, slow back swing really helps my CB accuracy and speed control when I'm playing tight.

-roger
 
The Renfro said:
The one perk I get to do on every TV match is to watch the player's strokes and replay them in slow motion... I handle the scoring and instant replays so it's more of a job than a perk... The closest player to a classic pendulum is likely Thorsten Hohmann... If you remove the elbow drop from the end of his stroke his fundamentals are classic....
Chris
Click to expand...

Its likely I haven't seen any of the vids you've worked on but one of my *****es is NONE OF THE VIDS OR STREAMS SHOW THE STROKE.

The camera always closes in on either the CB or the OB falling in the pocket. The only thing to LEARN from these is shot selection.

A real shame there's no useful purpose to watch other than to see who wins and the antics.
 
3kushn said:
Its likely I haven't seen any of the vids you've worked on but one of my *****es is NONE OF THE VIDS OR STREAMS SHOW THE STROKE.

The camera always closes in on either the CB or the OB falling in the pocket. The only thing to LEARN from these is shot selection.

A real shame there's no useful purpose to watch other than to see who wins and the antics.
Click to expand...

One of the things we always talk about are new angles or sequences to include... I have been pushing for slo-mo break shots and regular stroke sequences so I feel your pain.... The stroke is not the center of attention in any of our shots at the moment and from a student's standpoint paying it some attention would be a worthy endeavor.......
 
Filipino stroke

Filipino stroke, wow sounds so pinoy!...

well Filipino strokes are for filipinos! lol, just kidding...

I'm a Filipino, I have combined my wavy stroke with the textbook styles... and it serves me well....

Actually, if your stroke is kinda built-in, Filipino or textbook style, Stick with it, just improve on aiming...
=======================================================


The filipino stroke (The reason why we have it)

1) majority of us are short.
2) Using standard cues (59") when we were younger or smaller, so the effect would be wavy stroke due to the imbalance of the cue and the person using it.
3) Francisco Bustamante!.. (that explains it)
4) etc..
 
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