Whippy Meucci Shafts - Really?

[drivermaker]

I keep seeing people post how "whippy" Meucci shafts are. What the hell does this mean...can somebody explain it to me? How are you measuring the amount of flex? What tools do you have to do this? Which way is the shaft flexing and how much is bending to create this "WHIP"? WHERE is it bending upon impact and how much force is needed to create this bend or whip?

Don't just tell me that all of you have super human feel along with the ability to "see" it happening right in front of your eyes. That's bullshit. I know for a fact that some of the posters are hacks, so how can you even determine this?

I don't know of very many people in this country that have done as much testing and experimentation with golf shafts to determine flex and torque and how it affects performance. We have something pretty sophisticated called a frequency and torque analyzer which measures the vibrations of a shaft when "twanged" in cpm's (cycles per minute). Here is a picture of it:

http://www.csfa.com/clubsct3.html

For all of the Ph.D.s, engineers, and scientists out there, here are some additional areas of interest concerning flex/torque measurement in their tech area: http://www.csfa.com/techframe.htm If you click onto a subject on the left hand side of the page, this should keep you busy for a long time.

When we do human testing with shafts, we always do it in a blind fashion to the human testing it. We have them hit a club with a particular shaft and ask how it felt...and did it feel stiff or flexy (whippy if you prefer). I (we) are the ONLY ones that know the true cpm's or whippyness, and invariably we get totally incorrect assessments of what the shaft really is.

However, if we TELL the person up front what they're using, they'll concur all the time that it's either extremely stiff or whippy based on prior knowledge and what they're expecting to feel.

I know that Meucci uses a longer taper which isn't conducive to the stiffest hitting shafts that are tapered otherwise and I CAN feel some difference especially since I own about 10 or 12 red dots and black dots combined, but we're not talking about something so drastic that it's like using a bullwhip.

Unless you have some sort of machine like we use above in golf, how do you really know what you have and what the difference is between one or the other? When so many can't even run 3 fookin' balls...don't tell me that you possess that kind of feel. AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN!!

 

[runscott]

I know for a fact that some of the posters are hacks, so how can you even determine this?

What are the qualifications for being able to post in this forum? Let me know - if I qualify, I'll post my opinions on this since I bought a Meucci Originals cue specifically to see how it hit.

 

[Koop]

What are the qualifications for being able to post in this forum? Let me know - if I qualify, I'll post my opinions on this since I bought a Meucci Originals cue specifically to see how it hit.

Is it an old Meucci Originals?
A buddy had one and it was one of favorite all time cues. Don't know enough about the new ones to make any decisive remarks but I love the old ones.

Koop

 

[JoeyInCali]

If the flex point of the shaft is around the 16-inch mark from the tip, that is whippy imo.
If it's around the 12-inch mark, that's medium stiff to me.
My 2 cents worth a few more in Canada.

 

[drivermaker]

If the flex point of the shaft is around the 16-inch mark from the tip, that is whippy imo.
If it's around the 12-inch mark, that's medium stiff to me.
My 2 cents worth a few more in Canada.

That sounds pretty scientific. And what's the difference between whippy and medium stiff? How do you measure it? Actually, how are you even determining the flex point?

Wouldn't it also be possible that two shafts having a flex or bend point at the same inch mark could STILL have different frequencies or flex?? I know the answer...do you?

 

[runscott]

Is it an old Meucci Originals?
A buddy had one and it was one of favorite all time cues. Don't know enough about the new ones to make any decisive remarks but I love the old ones.

Koop

Yes, it was the 'square letter' old cue with a no-dot shaft. I am still trying to "rent" cues (buy and sell) to learn more about how different ones hit, and a 'no dot' Originals was on my list to try. I was very pleased with it, but it hit very different from my playing cue and I had no plan to switch, so I sold it. I won't get into details because I just might be a HACKER!!!!

 

[drivermaker]

What are the qualifications for being able to post in this forum? Let me know - if I qualify, I'll post my opinions on this since I bought a Meucci Originals cue specifically to see how it hit.

Post away...the worst that could happen is you get blasted over the head and want to leave the forum. I too have a 1980 Meucci Original. (don't know what your year is)

 

[runscott]

Post away...the worst that could happen is you get blasted over the head and want to leave the forum. I too have a 1980 Meucci Original. (don't know what your year is)

Hey, that's happened to me PLENTY of times! I like the fact that there are scientific methods to measure "whippiness" - I never thought about this, and I admit that my "test" had up-front bias since I already had heard that Meucci's were "whippy". In any case, my soft game was great with the old Meucci (I think it was 84-6, 2nd series), but my control over the object balls was awful - I'm sure I would have gotten used to it, but I already had a good playing cue and didn't want to confuse my game further. Here's the old cue, since sold:

http://runscott.homestead.com/files/equipment/Meucci02.JPG

 

[Egg McDogit]

Even though I'm an admitted streetplayer and bigtime hack, I found a ball recently and will have you know that I can run 4 balls occasionally now. I have a pretty long bridge and I think it's pretty easy to feel the difference, especially on non-centerball hits.

Don't just tell me that all of you have super human feel along with the ability to "see" it happening right in front of your eyes. That's bullshit. I know for a fact that some of the posters are hacks, so how can you even determine this?other? When so many can't even run 3 fookin' balls...don't tell me that you possess that kind of feel. AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN!!

 

[drivermaker]

Hey, that's happened to me PLENTY of times! I like the fact that there are scientific methods to measure "whippiness" - I never thought about this, and I admit that my "test" had up-front bias since I already had heard that Meucci's were "whippy". In any case, my soft game was great with the old Meucci (I think it was 84-6, 2nd series), but my control over the object balls was awful - I'm sure I would have gotten used to it, but I already had a good playing cue and didn't want to confuse my game further. Here's the old cue, since sold:

http://runscott.homestead.com/files/equipment/Meucci02.JPG

Personally, I think you screwed up. That's a sharp looking cue and I think you should have kept it. I don't know why guys just don't change a shaft if they don't like it. Hell, it can even happen of the best of custom cues...

 

[runscott]

Personally, I think you screwed up. That's a sharp looking cue and I think you should have kept it. I don't know why guys just don't change a shaft if they don't like it. Hell, it can even happen of the best of custom cues...

I had too many cues and couldn't afford to keep them all, but yes, I wish I had kept it. I'm working on implementing a new philosophy "You can never have too many cues", but that means my kids starting next semester without textbooks. This could be tough.

 

[drivermaker]

I usually test all of my shafts to see how whippy they are. This is the first thing I do to other people who invite me to try out their cue. Oh, I use 'feel' and 'sight', together, if you can imagine this . It is not BS. You have got to be kidding, right?

I can definitely tell the difference in a whippy shaft and a stiff shaft. You would have to be a stiff to not be able to tell the difference. I am also one of those people who can tell the difference between cheap American beers and good German beers for example. It ain't so tough if you are a pro.

By the way DM, I used to do this with golf clubs all the time. I only liked stiff shafts, and in golf, if you drove the ball as far as I did, you definitely could tell the difference between a stiff shaft and a flexible shaft. You are in the golf business I hear, so I shouldn't have to explain this to you, unless of course you have never played or end up hitting the 'big ball' first so many times that your arms fall off. Bottom line, you are a hack at golf and you can only depend on equipment to give you an answer.

Now this is true bullsh*t:

"When we do human testing with shafts, we always do it in a blind fashion to the human testing it. We have them hit a club with a particular shaft and ask how it felt...and did it feel stiff or flexy (whippy if you prefer). I (we) are the ONLY ones that know the true cpm's or whippyness, and invariably we get totally incorrect assessments of what the shaft really is.

However, if we TELL the person up front what they're using, they'll concur all the time that it's either extremely stiff or whippy based on prior knowledge and what they're expecting to feel."

Do you expect me to believe this bullsh*t?

And as far as pool goes, I really don't see want you are trying to accomplish, if anything at all. For example, the Predator cue flexes like hell, but it has zero deflection. Of course this is a bad example because Predator is such a superior flexible cue

Of course, golf could have the same parallels as far as the Predator shafts go. That is, and you tell me since you are the golf expert, it is possible that some golf shafts are flexible but hit the ball straighter than a normal stiff shafted cue? If this is the case, then your whole premise of the importance of stiffness is bullsh*t, is it not? And going to all that trouble to test the poor slob who probably can't even play golf anyway, using blinds and double blind testing, would be even more completely absurd, would it not?

Sometimes I think you like to jump off of the deep in just to see if you can swim.

WW

You truly are clueless...absolutely clueless. I have no response or explanation because you'd never understand it, nor would it matter.

 

[pawnmon]

whipped!

Just my two cents. I have had a Meucci for many years. I shoot with it once in a while just to remind myself of how it strikes the cueball. It's the only cue I have that "feels" that way. The pattern always ends up that I can readily make the close in shots that I hit easy. The longer shots that require more power (not a slammer, just more power) end up all over the place in comparison. Squirt galore. Have tried a few other Meuccis and I find them to be similar.

I've been told from several respected cuemakers that a shaft will flex most where the straight part of the taper meets the part of the shaft where it starts to flare out. I don't know if that's right but this explanation would indicate that the longer the straight part of the shaft is the more flex you'd get. These guys also said that this flexing gets worse as the diameter of the shaft becomes smaller (like if you have a cue with a 12mm tip).

All I know is that I've got many cues but I mainly play with only four of them when it counts.

 

[DaveK]

My 2 cents worth a few more in Canada.

Not much more, we're catching up ! Which makes your fine American products all that more affordable to us Canadians, although our exporters are feeling a bit of pressure ... but enough about our soaring dollar ...

I would like to see some standardized tests on cue shaft parameters. Golf shaft testing is somewhat standardized, and there are absolutely benefits to having shafts categorized by their charactoristics. I believe that many people can understand/feel some things about a golf/pool shaft when hitting a ball, but I would not think that many could take 10 shafts, hit with them all, then sort them in ascending order of 'stiffness'. Scientific measurement can. It simply a matter of subjective opinion vs objective test results.

So how much would a cue maker or cue retailer value a machine that could reasonably measure the stiffness of a pool shaft ? I think that the golf unit from dm's post retailed for $400, would anyone pay that for one to measure pool shaft stiffness ? I'm thinking that the torque measurement might not be too relevant to a pool shaft.

Dave

 

[Snapshot9]

Flexing ..

To me basically there are only 3 factors in determining
how stiff or how flexible a shaft is:

1) The hardness of the wood used, sometimes
the section of the tree that the wood comes from.
2) The thickness, or taper, of the shaft.
3) If the shaft is solid wood, or a composite method.

Composite methods can be stronger than the original material,
in which case, it would serve for a stiffer hit. If would depend,
of course, on the type of composite method used.

Cue makers, at some point in time, might switch suppliers
for their shafts, and the new 'trees' might not have quite
the density of the older 'trees'.

The longer the taper on a shaft, the more the tendency
to flex, but this too is affected by the other 2 factors.

Joss's today, to me, hit stiffer than I remember them being
30 years ago.

Many cues bend, or flex, when a person breaks the balls.

 

[Sharkey]

What was the point of this thread? So that you can ask a bunch of questions that no one really cares about and then blast into anyone that tries to give you their honest opinion but doesn't care about how you test you ummmm shaft. You have the gaul to say someone else just wants attention! I bet you are one of those people that run to your computer first thing in the morning so you can see who has been talking about you. Get a life, well besides this pathetic one and let the forum get back to helping people instead of antaganizing them. This forum has gotten way to "clickish" and has really stopped helping people.

 

[drivermaker]

So how much would a cue maker or cue retailer value a machine that could reasonably measure the stiffness of a pool shaft ? I think that the golf unit from dm's post retailed for $400, would anyone pay that for one to measure pool shaft stiffness ? I'm thinking that the torque measurement might not be too relevant to a pool shaft.

Dave

I don't think torque would be to relevant either. But you're the engineer and have been around the equipment for measuring flex in golf shafts.

I'm not even sure that the one to measure a golf shaft would even apply to a cue shaft since the shaft actually bends and flexes from side to side upon striking the ball at from between 80-160 mph with about a 200 gram load.

How much do you think a shaft bends or flexes from a STRAIGHT ON HIT in regular pool play (not breaking) and what could measure it from THAT line of impact? Would the same machine apply?

 

[drivermaker]

What was the point of this thread? So that you can ask a bunch of questions that no one really cares about and then blast into anyone that tries to give you their honest opinion but doesn't care about how you test you ummmm shaft. You have the gaul to say someone else just wants attention! I bet you are one of those people that run to your computer first thing in the morning so you can see who has been talking about you. Get a life, well besides this pathetic one and let the forum get back to helping people instead of antaganizing them. This forum has gotten way to "clickish" and has really stopped helping people.

You have 8 posts and they've just about ALL been targeted toward me in a negative flaming fashion. You've NEVER posted ANYTHING of value. Crawl back under your rock...loser!!!

 

[DaveK]

I don't think torque would be to relevant either. But you're the engineer and have been around the equipment for measuring flex in golf shafts.

I'm not even sure that the one to measure a golf shaft would even apply to a cue shaft since the shaft actually bends and flexes from side to side upon striking the ball at from between 80-160 mph with about a 200 gram load.

How much do you think a shaft bends or flexes from a STRAIGHT ON HIT in regular pool play (not breaking) and what could measure it from THAT line of impact? Would the same machine apply?

I would guess that a shaft will vibrate after a straight centerball impact, and that vibration would be at some 'natural' frequency as determined by the shaft charactoristics. The amplitude of the vibration (how much does it flex, measured in inches or millimeters) would be small on a centerball hit, and more for an off-center hit, but I would guess that the vibration frequency would be the same, and that frequency would be an indicator of the 'stiffness' of the shaft. This is all speculation on my part.

The golf-shaft-frequency meter that I built has a range of 180cpm to 320cmp (iirc), I have no idea if that would be an appropriate range for a pool shaft, some may be outside of that range .... I dunno ... something to test The way I built my meter changing ranges is simply an EPROM change, so it could be adapted.

Testing the shaft while a player hits balls would be most interesting, but would need a different sensor (piezo) than what I use in my meter (optical interupter). But one could quite simply make a new clamp for a pool shaft and stick it in the golf meter, maybe I'll try it with an old McDermott shaft. If I get this going I will put out a call for everyone to send me a shaft and I'll test them .... I might send them back

Dave

PS If nothing else a testing system would reduce the arguements about whippy and stiff shafts and possibly debunk some myths about certain cues.

 

[JoeyInCali]

Not much more, we're catching up ! Which makes your fine American products all that more affordable to us Canadians, although our exporters are feeling a bit of pressure ... but enough about our soaring dollar ...

I would like to see some standardized tests on cue shaft parameters. Golf shaft testing is somewhat standardized, and there are absolutely benefits to having shafts categorized by their charactoristics. I believe that many people can understand/feel some things about a golf/pool shaft when hitting a ball, but I would not think that many could take 10 shafts, hit with them all, then sort them in ascending order of 'stiffness'. Scientific measurement can. It simply a matter of subjective opinion vs objective test results.

So how much would a cue maker or cue retailer value a machine that could reasonably measure the stiffness of a pool shaft ? I think that the golf unit from dm's post retailed for $400, would anyone pay that for one to measure pool shaft stiffness ? I'm thinking that the torque measurement might not be too relevant to a pool shaft.

Dave

Dave, I've seen a golf club roundness/stiffness tester used to test shafts.
The gizmo proved that no shaft is totally round or have even strenght 360 degrees b/c the shaft would spin to it's softest side and flex there ( not even 314 ).
It too showed where the flex point of the shaft was.
But, to buy and demo that machine is worthless imo. The maker would just be opening a can of worms for the googans to ask a million questions and still settle nothing.
Who really cares?