Whippy Meucci Shafts - Really?

[drivermaker]

Dave, I've seen a golf club roundness/stiffness tester used to test shafts.
The gizmo proved that no shaft is totally round or have even strenght 360 degrees b/c the shaft would spin to it's softest side and flex there ( not even 314 ).
It too showed where the flex point of the shaft was.
But, to buy and demo that machine is worthless imo. The maker would just be opening a can of worms for the googans to ask a million questions and still settle nothing.
Who really cares?

If it spins and flexes at it's softest side, that's what a spine finder is for. It must be in existence already if Meucci used something to figure out the spine for the red and black dot marking. Besides you can rotate the shaft in a clamp and still see what the stiffness/flex readings are for a 360 degree rotation and how they change, if at all.

What do you mean who really cares?? All of those measurements mean EVERYTHING in custom fitting a golf shaft to a particular golfers swing whether they're a high handicapper or a PGA pro...especially a PGA PRO.
NOTHING is left to happenstance. Why would this not be important in pool, or should it remain all guesswork and in dark ages?

Again...go to about 2 or 3 different threads on the forum right now where guys are talking about stiff and whippy shafts. Obviously they care...I just don't think ANYBODY is very well informed or knowledgeable about it. It's all guesswork...supposition...misinfomation...and untruths until proven one way or another.

What do YOU do and what do YOU use to determine the bend point in the shaft and accurately measure it?

 

[TATE]

I keep seeing people post how "whippy" Meucci shafts are.

Let me clear the air right now, right here.

Here's what happened. Once I said Meucci shafts were whimpy, but I misspelled it, and it came out "whippy". Then all the monkey-see types started calling Meucci shafts whippy and saying they gave more spin. Meucci saw a huge increase in sales, so they started building whippy shafts to match my perception.

Then I switched to Predator - and you saw what happened there.

I'm not telling people what I'm doing anymore.

Chris

 

[drivermaker]

Let me clear the air right now, right here.

Here's what happened. Once I said Meucci shafts were whimpy, but I misspelled it, and it came out "whippy". Then all the monkey-see types started calling Meucci shafts whippy and saying they gave more spin. Meucci saw a huge increase in sales, so they started building whippy shafts to match my perception.

Then I switched to Predator - and you saw what happened there.

I'm not telling people what I'm doing anymore.

Chris

HANG THIS MAN!!!

 

[tom haney]

Is it an old Meucci Originals?
A buddy had one and it was one of favorite all time cues. Don't know enough about the new ones to make any decisive remarks but I love the old ones.

Koop

Me too. My 20 year old Meucci OLD1 " The Diamond"
is a great cue. It's certainly flexible but I never did
understand all this whippy stuff.

 

[drivermaker]

Me too. My 20 year old Meucci OLD1 " The Diamond"
is a great cue. It's certainly flexible but I never did
understand all this whippy stuff.

That's because there's no such thing as "whippy". It doesn't exist unless it's made out of garden hose.

I'm not even sure if "flexible" is even close to appropriate as a description. I'd just say it's a little softer. How much?? Who the hell knows.

 

[BRKNRUN]

That sounds pretty scientific. And what's the difference between whippy and medium stiff? How do you measure it? Actually, how are you even determining the flex point?

Wouldn't it also be possible that two shafts having a flex or bend point at the same inch mark could STILL have different frequencies or flex?? I know the answer...do you?[/QUOTE]

I am going to guess.....yes???????

Hmmmm....are we going to see low and mid kick pool shafts in our future??

 

[drivermaker]

That sounds pretty scientific. And what's the difference between whippy and medium stiff? How do you measure it? Actually, how are you even determining the flex point?

Wouldn't it also be possible that two shafts having a flex or bend point at the same inch mark could STILL have different frequencies or flex?? I know the answer...do you?[/QUOTE]

I am going to guess.....yes???????

Hmmmm....are we going to see low and mid kick pool shafts in our future??

Good guess...too bad the Maserati was already given out yesterday.

I think you and I are the only ones that truly believe that the next wave in the pool industry will be through composites and the integration of wood to be able to do any damn thing you want and have them all come out consistently or identical. I don't know what has taken so long already.

 

[BRKNRUN]

Good guess...too bad the Maserati was already given out yesterday.

I think you and I are the only ones that truly believe that the next wave in the pool industry will be through composites and the integration of wood to be able to do any damn thing you want and have them all come out consistently or identical. I don't know what has taken so long already.

I am guesstimating at this point billions of $$ have been spent on golf shaft technology R&D....I wonder if pool has even hit 1 million yet???

Pool is just barely getting to the stage where golf went from hickory shafts to steel shafts...When was that 1945????

 

[drivermaker]

I am guesstimating at this point billions of $$ have been spent on golf shaft technology R&D....I wonder if pool has even hit 1 million yet???

Pool is just barely getting to the stage where golf went from hickory shafts to steel shafts...When was that 1945????

I wouldn't know that. Even I wasn't born yet...

 

[BRKNRUN]

I keep seeing people post how "whippy" Meucci shafts are. What the hell does this mean...can somebody explain it to me? How are you measuring the amount of flex? What tools do you have to do this? Which way is the shaft flexing and how much is bending to create this "WHIP"? WHERE is it bending upon impact and how much force is needed to create this bend or whip?

Don't just tell me that all of you have super human feel along with the ability to "see" it happening right in front of your eyes. That's bullshit. I know for a fact that some of the posters are hacks, so how can you even determine this?

I don't know of very many people in this country that have done as much testing and experimentation with golf shafts to determine flex and torque and how it affects performance. We have something pretty sophisticated called a frequency and torque analyzer which measures the vibrations of a shaft when "twanged" in cpm's (cycles per minute). Here is a picture of it:

http://www.csfa.com/clubsct3.html

For all of the Ph.D.s, engineers, and scientists out there, here are some additional areas of interest concerning flex/torque measurement in their tech area: http://www.csfa.com/techframe.htm If you click onto a subject on the left hand side of the page, this should keep you busy for a long time.

When we do human testing with shafts, we always do it in a blind fashion to the human testing it. We have them hit a club with a particular shaft and ask how it felt...and did it feel stiff or flexy (whippy if you prefer). I (we) are the ONLY ones that know the true cpm's or whippyness, and invariably we get totally incorrect assessments of what the shaft really is.

However, if we TELL the person up front what they're using, they'll concur all the time that it's either extremely stiff or whippy based on prior knowledge and what they're expecting to feel.

I know that Meucci uses a longer taper which isn't conducive to the stiffest hitting shafts that are tapered otherwise and I CAN feel some difference especially since I own about 10 or 12 red dots and black dots combined, but we're not talking about something so drastic that it's like using a bullwhip.

Unless you have some sort of machine like we use above in golf, how do you really know what you have and what the difference is between one or the other? When so many can't even run 3 fookin' balls...don't tell me that you possess that kind of feel. AIN'T GONNA HAPPEN!!

I tought about this for a sec...Here is what I think....I do think there may not be any scientific designed set of guidlines for what is whippy or stiff...

However...I am sure you have heard.."If it walks, talks, and acts like a duck...It must be a duck"....

A lot of people label Meucci shafts as whippy...So, when a new person comes into the learning process of what is whippy vs stiff, they have no other real information to go on other than what they have heard....thus...they pick up Meucci and hit a ball or two with it and say..."so that is what whippy feels like"....and the trend goes on and on....

Also...as far as why maple shafts are still the norm vs "technology"

I think a pool cue and golf club differ in that most people do not look at a golf club as a form of "art"...The pool cue is looked upon almost as much as art as it is a functional tool for playing the game.......A factory built synthetic shaft is no longer regarded as "art" because its not hand made....Even though current maple shaft cue makers all probably follow a "template" of some kind when they turn the shaft, it's still considered hand crafted.

That...and the majority of population likes to resist change....

 

[drivermaker]

A lot of people label Meucci shafts as whippy...So, when a new person comes into the learning process of what is whippy vs stiff, they have no other real information to go on other than what they have heard....thus...they pick up Meucci and hit a ball or two with it and say..."so that is what whippy feels like"....and the trend goes on and on....

Yeh, but that's exactly where the bullshit starts because like any other shaft, they're all a little different in weight, density, and taper.
All Meucci shafts aren't the same! So for someone to play with a Meucci, have a red dot or black dot on it and immediately make a statement that "these Meucci's are WHIPPY" is full of crap.

I would bet that those same players would pick up a Meucci and see what it is but NOT KNOW that the shaft was altered and on the stiff side, would STILL SAY..."Man...these Meucci's are whippy. Get this thing outta my hands".

As I said, I have about 10 or 12 shafts that are either red or black dot. One of them is 12mm and weighs 4.1 oz. which is an alright weight, and another one that is 13mm and weighs 3.65 oz. and I absolutely hate both of those things. I can't make shit with them. On the other hand, I have others that are 4.25 oz., 4.3 oz, 4.4 oz. 4.5 oz. and even 4.8 oz that are all 13mm and play SUPER.
I would defy any one on here to hit those cues without knowing what they are up front and say they were whippy or flexible. And you know what... NOBODY would!!

 

[drivermaker]

i guess this is directed more to you DM i think you have a great understanding of both golf and pool, so my question is like in golf we have many different clubs for the different playing surfaces and different reactions we wish to obtain, would it be feasible to have a set of cues for the same purpose, especially for like the road players as im sure they will be seeing a big different in slow and fast cloth changes even different balls and of course the different climates,where would one need a stiff shaft or a whippy shaft ,

I have actually known a number of players that do exactly what you're saying. They either have different weighted shafts and tips for varying conditions or even a couple of different cues for the game being played. Some guys prefer a certain setup for 9ball and something else for 1pocket, straight, or a barbox. I don't think you'll ever see the day where somebody pulls out a cue for a long shot...then changes over for a power draw...then a cut with a lot of english. But hey...who knows what could take place. Just about everyone now has a break cue, a jump cue, and a playing cue. Maybe the "golf bag cue case" will be the next thing down the road.

 

[bruin70]

That sounds pretty scientific. And what's the difference between whippy and medium stiff? How do you measure it? Actually, how are you even determining the flex point?

Wouldn't it also be possible that two shafts having a flex or bend point at the same inch mark could STILL have different frequencies or flex?? I know the answer...do you?

it largely depends on the shaftwood , imo. there are a few factors that can go into shaft whippiness,,,but i think for me, what it all boils down to the SHARPNESS of the hit....and THAT is a very noticable quality.

i played with a scruggs for an hour once, and i thought it hit kinda "mushy" or soft. it felt like the cb wasn't "taking off" after contact like it should. i checked the grain, and it was NOT straight. it bent off about 10 inches from the tip. because i play with very sharp hitting cues, this was immediately apparant to me.

 

[drivermaker]

it largely depends on the shaftwood , imo. there are a few factors that can go into shaft whippiness,,,but i think for me, what it all boils down to the SHARPNESS of the hit....and THAT is a very noticable quality.

i played with a scruggs for an hour once, and i thought it hit kinda "mushy" or soft. it felt like the cb wasn't "taking off" after contact like it should. i checked the grain, and it was NOT straight. it bent off about 10 inches from the tip. because i play with very sharp hitting cues, this was immediately apparant to me.

Yes, I agree with you on that, but it also has to do with the tip that can skew the thinking. I have Hercules Hard on all of those shafts, which I don't know if you've ever played with one, but those suckers are REALLY hard and everything comes off crisp. If you've never used one, try it if that's the kind of hit you like.

 

[bruin70]

Yes, I agree with you on that, but it also has to do with the tip that can skew the thinking. I have Hercules Hard on all of those shafts, which I don't know if you've ever played with one, but those suckers are REALLY hard and everything comes off crisp. If you've never used one, try it if that's the kind of hit you like.

i play with WB water buffalos, champions, eurekas, and crowns. i think it's actually EASIER to identify the shaft if you have hard tips because i think the soft tips mask the feel more.

haven't played in a while though, so i'd have to do this all over again to see if i can tell if it's the tip or shaft. as i recall, the tip feel is very localized, whereas you can feel a sharp shaft through its length.

you can change a lot with the tip, though. i think tenon through affects the feel more than tip.

 

[drivermaker]

thanks for the reply DM i didnt mean quite that extreme, but like you suggest it could be a thing of the future .wonder if i could get a caddy job with a touring pro .talk about slow play can you imagine. well what do you think for this cut a 19 oz meucci with a morri tip and a whippy shaft or maybe just use lepro tip on the ole lucasi 30 oz and stroke away.

I don't think 30 oz. is legal.

 

[inrush]

I never understood the 25oz weight max, when's the last time anyone's seen a scale at a tourney??

I don't think 30 oz. is legal.

 

[BRKNRUN]

Yeh, but that's exactly where the bullshit starts because like any other shaft, they're all a little different in weight, density, and taper.
All Meucci shafts aren't the same! So for someone to play with a Meucci, have a red dot or black dot on it and immediately make a statement that "these Meucci's are WHIPPY" is full of crap.

I would bet that those same players would pick up a Meucci and see what it is but NOT KNOW that the shaft was altered and on the stiff side, would STILL SAY..."Man...these Meucci's are whippy. Get this thing outta my hands".

As I said, I have about 10 or 12 shafts that are either red or black dot. One of them is 12mm and weighs 4.1 oz. which is an alright weight, and another one that is 13mm and weighs 3.65 oz. and I absolutely hate both of those things. I can't make shit with them. On the other hand, I have others that are 4.25 oz., 4.3 oz, 4.4 oz. 4.5 oz. and even 4.8 oz that are all 13mm and play SUPER.I would defy any one on here to hit those cues without knowing what they are up front and say they were whippy or flexible. And you know what... NOBODY would!!

I am guessing you like a forward balance cue.

That was kinda my point...I just subsituted the word trend for bullshit.....If someone is told that a Meucci is whippy, but the first ever cue he hits has a red dot or other stiff Meucci shaft on it...they will assume that to be the whippy hit

 

[VonRhett]

I am guesstimating at this point billions of $$ have been spent on golf shaft technology R&D....I wonder if pool has even hit 1 million yet???
Pool is just barely getting to the stage where golf went from hickory shafts to steel shafts...When was that 1945????

DM/Anyone know what the difference in the average Pro Golfers score is since the introduciton of Titanium, Computer-designed dimples, ALL the previously-mentioned testing instruments and diagnostics tools, Liquid Metals, Advanced Alloys, Custom Component Clubmaking, Impact Pads, Feel Catridges, Advanced Rubber Grips, and all leading-edge technologies to fully understand Kick Point, Flex Point, Bend Point, Torque, Flex Type, and all other goilf-swing dynamics - COMBINED? Throw in radioactive core balls, unobtanium shafts and computer-modeled swing analysis, and the answer is:

Less Than ONE

Right, DM? Since the mid 1950's, the average Pro Golfers average score has been reduced by ONE STROKE.

It's all about marketing and selling product, not necessarily better golf.
(Source: Gold Digest)

What the heck does that mean, you ask? That great shaft wood selection (15-20 gwpi) with a carefully tuned taper, properly cut tenon and correct ferrule length/material (1" ivory for me) will always provide better feel and more consistency than any of the leading-edge technologies which may or may not result in Nano-Carbon-LiquidWood-Cuetonium shafts.

Where were we - oh yeah - anybody figure out what "whippy" means, yet?

 

[billfishhead]

if whippy is your thing then get a meucci,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,Id rather have a better hitting cue, so I got a Szamboti