Whiteball - damage?

[genesis]

Saluc now called the wpa Rule:

Copy from http://www.wpa-pool.com/download/spec.pdf
-----

The cue tip may not be of a material that can scratch or damage the addressed ball. The
cue tip on any stick must be composed of a piece of specially processed leather or other
fibrous or pliable material that extends the natural line of the shaft end of the cue and
contacts the cue ball when the shot is executed..
------------

Thats a vicious circle. Going on and on.

 

[Cuebacca]

By the BCA/WPA at about the time that jump rods started appearing, which was before the current style of jump stick. Here is the current WPA wording:

The cue tip may not be of a material that can scratch or damage the addressed ball. The cue tip on any stick must be composed of a piece of specially processed leather or other fibrous or pliable material that extends the natural line of the shaft end of the cue and contacts the cue ball when the shot is executed..
​

Maybe the wording should be changed (if the intention is to outlaw phenolics). I say this because I wonder, aren't phenolic and canvas resin tips fibrous? When I look at my canvas resin tip, it looks fibrous by the definition: "Having, consisting of, or resembling fibers." To me, it resembles fibers due to the grid-like pattern visible in it.

The other half of the regulation is that a legal tip cannot damage the cue ball. So I suppose I should check my cue balls to see if I have any half moons, but I don't think I do.

It seems that if the WPA wants to outlaw phenolics (and wants players to have fair warning when they read the rules), the wording should specfically state, "no plastic tips; no phenolic tips; no canvas tips; leather only", or something similarly clear. Is there something I'm overlooking here?

As worded, is this supposed to prevent phenolics from being used?

 

[Buster8001]

I have this type of damage on my Aramith cue balls, but it is from miss-cueing not breaking. though I do use a "normal" leather tip for my break cue.

Josh

 

[genesis]

It seems that if the WPA wants to outlaw phenolics (and wants players to have fair warning when they read the rules), the wording should specfically state, "no plastic tips; no phenolic tips; no canvas tips; leather only", or something similarly clear. Is there something I'm overlooking here?

As worded, is this supposed to prevent phenolics from being used?

Well it should be i guess. ;-)

 

[GordonRamsay]

same problem here on my set of aramith... and I use a phenolic break tip. However, I just bought a blue circle cb got about 6 games on it and noticed the damage. I was then NOT using a phenolic break tip at that particular time.


what ticks me off is that it is impossibly difficult to contact Aramith......

 

[Bob Jewett]

Maybe the wording should be changed (if the intention is to outlaw phenolics). ...

I think the whole intention is to outlaw tips that damage the cue ball. I think the wording accomplishes that reasonably well, but what is missing is a clear procedure to determine whether a particular tip is acceptable. As has been pointed out, even a normal leather tip can do damage to a cue ball during a miscue, but it would be a serious problem out outlaw leather tips.

 

[Bob Jewett]

same problem here on my set of aramith... and I use a phenolic break tip. However, I just bought a blue circle cb got about 6 games on it and noticed the damage. I was then NOT using a phenolic break tip at that particular time. ...

It wasn't clear from your quoting, but I assume that you are saying that you have damage to your new blue circle cue ball from miscuing with a regular leather tip. Is that correct? What does the damage look like? Is the ball actually cracked? Does it just have scuff marks?

 

[AuntyDan]

I think the whole intention is to outlaw tips that damage the cue ball.

Interesting, I'd always assumed the bans on non-leather tips were introduced in an effort to limit the changes to the game such equipment made possible, such as enabling players to break harder and make jump shots easier.

The IPT's ban seemed to be for this reason. Just as a lot of their other decisions (E.G. Napped cloth, seeding for Hall Of Fame players past their prime, round robin format) seemed aimed at creating a more "classic" feel to their tournaments.

Personally I'd suggest what really needs to happen is for Saluc to improve their surface hardness/finish quality of their cue balls, both for consistency and to account for the obvious popularity of power break games like 9 Ball and break/jump cues with non-traditional leather tips.

I have both red circle, blue circle and Pro cup cue balls with these half-moon cracks on them. The red circle is definitely the better of the three in terms of fewer marks and it also picks up far less chalk marks in normal play, and the Pro cup is by far the worst. The red circle I have is several years older than the Pro cup ball but holds up much better.

 

[Cuebacca]

I think the whole intention is to outlaw tips that damage the cue ball. I think the wording accomplishes that reasonably well, but what is missing is a clear procedure to determine whether a particular tip is acceptable. As has been pointed out, even a normal leather tip can do damage to a cue ball during a miscue, but it would be a serious problem out outlaw leather tips.

I agree, but I think the problem is that most people won't know until it's too late. Even if we each do our own testing with our own tips and cue balls, it will be our word against the ref's come game time. Of course, the ref's decision is final. But the wording offers no way to support their decision unless the ref examines the cue ball before and after a player breaks and shows him that the tip is indeed illegal because it just damaged the cue ball.

I guess the safest thing for players, who like phenolic tips, to do is to carry two shafts for their break cue; one leather tipped and one phenolic tipped. As an amateur who would rarely enter a pro tournament, I guess I'll just have to hope that when I do, no one looks at my break cue too closely, and if I start to notice my cue ball cracking, then I'll have a decision to make.

 

[GordonRamsay]

It wasn't clear from your quoting, but I assume that you are saying that you have damage to your new blue circle cue ball from miscuing with a regular leather tip. Is that correct? What does the damage look like? Is the ball actually cracked? Does it just have scuff marks?

I will try to post pics.... but there are chips in the cueball and in my opinion deep scuff marks....


the tip I was using was a soft Elk Master...so yeah... nothing softer than that.

 

[Bob Jewett]

I will try to post pics.... but there are chips in the cueball and in my opinion deep scuff marks....


the tip I was using was a soft Elk Master...so yeah... nothing softer than that.

This sounds to me like problems either with the pockets (but that would be seen on the object balls as well) or someone is sending the cue ball onto a concrete floor. In my experience, even nasty miscues with a regular tip will buff out with mild ball polish.

 

[GordonRamsay]

nah.. I do have problems with the object balls.... especially 1-9...........and they are leather pockets too!!

 

[genesis]

Please read the whole thread. Please...

There is so much work in it.
Yes it could come from the pockets , of table playing , wrong rotation of the sun, whatever ... BUT it definetly also comes from "Phenolic Tips, (All in one, phenolic, whatelse)" and there is a rule that is not allowed, NOBODY seems interrested in that.
Actually that is really really strange. A tip is in Lab of Saluc, i am waiting on that.

You will read, that i took a brand new ball, break 2 times and discover those half moon dents! No of table , to in pocket contact of the whiteball!

regards

 

[softshot]

I think one cue per player with one extra shaft with similar tip..... would solve it all ...


break two shafts in one day... you either have anger issues.. or it's just not your day...



a little extra POP in your break is NOT going to make you a better pool player..

the ball you slop in 1 time out of a 1000 on pure force does not mean you will runout from there....

hit the headball square and solid.. park the cueball ... deal with whats left... more often than not its a better layout than smash the living $hit out of this rack with all the power of a thousand armys....



SIMPLIFY!!!!!!

 

[GordonRamsay]

Please read the hole thread. Please...

There is so much work in it.
Yes it could come from the pockets , of table playing , wrong rotation of the sun, whatever ... BUT it definetly also comes from "Phenolic Tips, (All in one, phenolic, whatelse)" and there is a rule that is not allowed, NOBODY seems interrested in that.
Actually that is really really strange. A tip is in Lab of Saluc, i am waiting on that.

You will read, that i took a brand new ball, break 2 times and discover those half moon dents! No of table , to in pocket contact of the whiteball!

regards

I did... the others just brought up useless stuff........I do believe it is the phenolic tip....

 

[genesis]

So, wel well well...

Today i got replacement for the sent ball. A new pro cup and a totaly new ball that comes up early in the market calles DURAMITH. It is a Scope ;-)

I startet be all for it and begin breaking...

This is my break

<< Std. break - VIDEO RIGHTCLICK AS >>
<< One with heavy top spin - VIDEO RIGHTCLICK AS>>

.....................

<< Then this ... >>

The second video was exactly the video that makes that dent !

Well see what comes back from Saluc this time ...

And we are still waiting for the outcomes from the LAB ! ;-O

The ability to control the new ball is different to the pro cup. It goes to the std aramith ball but i could not say much. I have to play with it a longer time.
The Cueball is a bit lighter and little smaller (1g /0,05 mm)
I looks a bit like a Bird dump on the spinning ball ;-)

Some impressions:
<< Duramith / pro new / pro used >>
<< Duramith / pro new / pro used 2 >>
<< Cracks n dents 1 >>
<< Cracks n dents 2 >>
<< Cracks n dents 3 >>

Use the VLC Player for the Videos or Install www.divx.com

 

[eyesjr]

agree

Totally agree. an off-center hit on whitey will cause issues. I actually use siome spin to gain position followinfg the break, and when I am inaccurate in my hit it causes the same problem. I have changed to a wider radius shaped tip for breaking which seems to help. The standard aramiths didnt seem to do this, but I do not play on the tables here with them as often as I do on the laarger tables which have the measle ball.

No other opinions?

 

[genesis]

Please support my efforts by participating my poll at

http://forums.azbilliards.com/showthread.php?t=136089

 

[PetToilet]

has anyone experience with G-10 tips? I'm sure they would cause more damage than linen phenolic

 

[sfleinen]

Gold Crown III drop-pocket tables can damage a cue-ball

I have seen this damage before and the person " people " swore up and down that it was from their Sledgehammer, I told that it wasn't and told them to look for a loose screw or bolt holding the rubber pockets in the corners. Sure enough, 2 loose screws and if you look at the other balls you will probably find the same marks on them too!!!!

no-sho

I tend to agree with no-sho. I've played on a lot of Gold Crown III tables in my time, and at least with the drop-pocket version, my experience with them reveals a flaw in their design. The pocket buckets are held in place with two recessed screws, that are in-line with the travel of a ball into that pocket. Meaning, if you slam a ball into the back of the pocket -- on the proper angle into the pocket that makes the object ball slam head into that screw hole -- you will have an opportunity for that ball to hit the head of the screw. It doesn't matter that the screw is recessed into the pocket-bucket's plastic; if you hit it hard enough, you can compress the plastic and make the ball "bottom out" onto the head of the screw. It actually makes a very distinctive sound when it happens; not the normal "thunk" with a ball hitting soft plastic, but more of a "clack" sound.

I've seen this type of "comma" (or "C") damage on object balls as well, and in almost all cases, it was the pocket-bucket-support screwhead that caused it. There's actually a rubber or plastic plug that's supposed to cover that screwhead, but this plug almost always dislodges and falls into the pocket upon hard impact, thus most of the GC-III drop-pocket tables almost never have them intact. A very poor design if you ask me.

I'm not doubting that some Phenolic tips can cause this type of damage, but I am sure -- from personal experience -- that certain drop-pocket tables can cause this. I for one use a break cue (Fury JB series) that has a special "soft" Phenolic on it -- installed by a local cue luthier -- that's guaranteed to be softer than the cue-ball material. It's soft, but resilient -- it "springs back" and won't mushroom. (I had this special soft Phenolic installed because I was mushrooming the stock carbon-graphite tip/ferrule installed on the Fury JB series.) However, I wouldn't doubt for a second that there's Phenolics out there that are as hard as a rock, and would cause this kind of damage. I would suggest, though, that folks inspect their tables -- especially if they are the drop-pocket type with plastic buckets -- to see if there are any visible screwheads, recessed or not. If so, these could be the culprit!

I hope this is helpful info!
-Sean