Who is really responsible for the quality of Asian Import Cues(cont)

fsarfino

♔ ♕ ♖ ♗ ♘ ♙
Not really sure why this thread got locked. I just finished reading the entire thread and I personally feel that alot of valid points got posted by both Craig and John, and I personally think that they should be allowed to continue their discussion on this topic.

My thoughts on the topic is as follows

Due to the current economic crisis no matter what it is that you are buying of you live in the USA please try to buy a American product. With as many people out of work we owe it to our fellow Americans.
 

cubswin

Just call me Joe...
Silver Member
Not really sure why this thread got locked.

Got locked because the two main posters have to be right. They will go on forever until they feel they win the argument and have been shown to be right. They both can be insulting to others, which only drags things on farther.

Sadly they both also contribute some interesting points from time to time.
 

John Barton

New member
Not really sure why this thread got locked. I just finished reading the entire thread and I personally feel that alot of valid points got posted by both Craig and John, and I personally think that they should be allowed to continue their discussion on this topic.

My thoughts on the topic is as follows

Due to the current economic crisis no matter what it is that you are buying of you live in the USA please try to buy a American product. With as many people out of work we owe it to our fellow Americans.

http://www.aynrand.org/site/PageServer?pagename=objectivism_buy_american

No good economist advocates a buy American approach.

Here is a google search on this search term, "the economics of buy American" Follow the links and you will see that in 200 years no serious economist argues against free trade.

Argue amongst yourselves. I am not in on this one. Oh who am I fooling - but this time I won't use my words. And for the record, this is really NPR at this point and does not belong here. A "buy American" comment has absolutely nothing to do with who is responsible for the quality of Asian import cues. And the answer to that question is American players are responsible for the quality of Asian import cues since they purchase most of them.

This is from the first link.

"Buying American is Un-American"

By Harry Binswanger, Ph.D.

According to a recent poll, 80% of Americans think it their patriotic duty to give preference to American-made products. But "Buy American" is wholly un-American in both its economics and its philosophy.

America's distinction among all the nations of the world is that it enshrined political and economic freedom. Although we have departed greatly from our original laissez-faire principles, to the whole world America still symbolizes capitalism. Americanism means understanding that a free market, domestically and internationally, is the only path to general prosperity.

International trade is not mortal combat but a form of cooperation, a means of expanding worldwide production. The benefits of international trade flow to both trading partners, even when one of the countries is more efficient across the board. This is the "Law of Comparative Advantage," covered in every economics textbook. Free trade does not destroy but creates employment.

The lucrative workings of free markets do not depend upon lines drawn on a map. The economic advantages of international commerce are the same as those of interstate, intercity, and crosstown commerce. And if we kept crosstown trade accounts, the "trade deficits" that would appear would be as meaningless as are our international "trade deficits." Fact confirms theory: the U.S. ran a trade "deficit" practically every year of the nineteenth century, the time of our most rapid economic progress.

Philosophically, Americanism means individualism. Individualism holds that one's personal identity, moral worth, and inalienable rights belong to one as an individual, not as a member of a particular race, class, nation, or other collective.

But collectivism is the premise of "Buy American." In purchasing goods, we are expected to view ourselves and the sellers not as individuals, but as units of a nation. We are expected to accept lower quality or more expensive goods in the name of alleged benefits to the national collective.

Most "Buy American" advocates are motivated by misplaced patriotism. But for some the motive is a collectivist hostility towards foreigners. This xenophobic attitude is thoroughly un-American; it is plain bigotry.

Giving preference to American-made products over German or Japanese products is the same injustice as giving preference to products made by whites over those made by blacks. Economic nationalism, like racism, means judging men and their products by the group from which they come, not by merit.

Collectivism reflects the notion that life is "a zero sum game," that we live in a dog-eat-dog world, where one man's gain is another man's loss. On this premise, everyone has to cling to his own herd and fight all the other herds for a share of a fixed, static, supply of goods. And that is exactly the premise of the "Buy American" campaign. "It's Japan or us," is the implication. If Japan is getting richer, then we must be getting poorer.

But individualism recognizes that wealth is produced, not merely appropriated, and that man's rise from the cave to the skyscraper demonstrates that life is not a zero-sum game—not where men are free to seek progress.

Accordingly, individualism holds that the interests of men do not conflict—provided we are speaking of self-supporting individuals who pay for what they get. Where there is free trade, the exchange of value for value, one man's gain is another man's gain.

The same harmony of men's interests applies in the international arena. One nation's enrichment raises the standard of living of all other nations with which it trades. Which nation adds more to your standard of living: Japan or Bangladesh? And how would you fare if Japan were suddenly reduced to the economic level of Bangladesh?

The patriotic advocates of buying American would be shocked to learn that the economic theory underlying their viewpoint is Marxism. In describing the influx of Japanese products and investment, they don't use the Marxist terminology of "imperialism" and "exploitation," but the basic idea is the same: capitalistic acts are destructive and free markets will impoverish you. It's the same anti-capitalist nonsense whether it is used by leftists to attack the United States for its commerce with Latin America or by supposed patriots to attack Japan for its commerce with the United States.

Contrary to Marxism, one does not benefit from the poverty or incompetence of others. It is in your interest that other men—in every country—be smart, ambitious, and productive, not stupid, lazy, or incompetent. Would you be better off if Thomas Edison had been dim-witted? Nothing is changed if we substitute a Japanese inventor for Edison.

More and better production is good for all men, everywhere. What's good for Toyota is good for America. That's individualism, and that's Americanism.

Government interference with free trade is un-American. Sacrificing one's standard of living in order to subsidize inefficient domestic producers is un-American. The tribal fear of foreigners is un-American. Resentment at others' success is un-American.

A patriotic American acts as a capitalist and an individualist: he buys the best, wherever it may be found."
 
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cueaddicts

AzB Gold Member
Silver Member
WHO CARES?? You're gonna have some people that buy the stuff and some that won't. Education and personal preferences and beliefs won't change anything in the grand scheme of things. It's kind of like everybody being pissed that they're paying 35% more for a lb of bacon at the grocery store and realizing it's only 12 oz. Nothing can be done at this point....the US has already sold itself out. :frown:
 

rackem

SUPPORT CLUB MEMBERSHIP
Silver Member
This seems to be a common response from you. Trying to get your post count a little higher ;)

Nope, trying to get yours a little lower. :rolleyes:
Closed threads should not be reopened.
I would imagine that the sticky about removal of post would pertain to reopening a thread also.

Good Luck and Have a great day.:smile:
 
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manwon

"WARLOCK 1"
Silver Member
Not really sure why this thread got locked. I just finished reading the entire thread and I personally feel that alot of valid points got posted by both Craig and John, and I personally think that they should be allowed to continue their discussion on this topic.

My thoughts on the topic is as follows

Due to the current economic crisis no matter what it is that you are buying of you live in the USA please try to buy a American product. With as many people out of work we owe it to our fellow Americans.

I totally agree that people should buy American, and while there are Import Brands of equal quality today to American products I do not think that quality is the only reason to buy American. I have heard many reasons in the multiple discussions on this subject on this board concerning why people buy other than American Products in the first place. In my opinion most, but not all buyers do not even know that they are buying an import in the first place and this is major reason so many are sold. Like with all most all import products, they are never advertised as an import, and the sales personal in most cases either do not know what they are selling, or intentionally do not bring up the subject unless asked. Even the brand names of the items do not really hint at the items origin and this is part of the Marketing program designed by the company having these cues built abroad.

However, every import cue and case does have a distinguishing mark that identifies them as an import. By law they all must have a sticker attached to the Cue or Case that identifies the country of origin, now if you wear glasses you may have to look close because these stickers are small, but again by law they must be present. The wholesaler and the retailer can not legally remove these stickers, only the consumer can remove this tag or sticker.

So, if you choose to buy American inspect what you are buying and ask questions before you buy that way you will get what you want.
 

manwon

"WARLOCK 1"
Silver Member
Got locked because the two main posters have to be right. They will go on forever until they feel they win the argument and have been shown to be right. They both can be insulting to others, which only drags things on farther.

Sadly they both also contribute some interesting points from time to time.



Got locked because the two main posters have to be right. They will go on forever until they feel they win the argument and have been shown to be right. They both can be insulting to others, which only drags things on farther.


First let me say, who the hell are you to make this statement!!!!!!!!!!:angry:

Then, let me say that I completely agree with you and I for one am going to try and make the changes necessary to preclude myself from this behavior in the future.:embarrassed2: I have a typical Type A personality which can certainly make me explosive, over bearing and pig headed at times when given interaction with others who share similar traits. There is a great deal more to me than meets the eye, and wasting my time involved in senseless bickering on an INTERNET forum is not how I want to portray myself or spend my time.:embarrassed2:

Thanks for your Post, and I applaud your honesty it is very refreshing.:smile:
 
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John Barton

New member
I totally agree that people should buy American, and while there are Import Brands of equal quality today to American products I do not think that quality is the only reason to buy American. I have heard many reasons in the multiple discussions on this subject on this board concerning why people buy other than American Products in the first place.

Do you think folks should have a right to buy from whom they want to and sell to whom they want to? Should government or even other people impose their beliefs on others?

In my opinion most, but not all buyers do not even know that they are buying an import in the first place and this is major reason so many are sold.

There is no legal requirement to advertise where a product comes from. Just like there is no requirement to list the salaries of the top executives who work for the companies producing goods in America.

The major reason why more of something is sold is because every person is responsible for their own bottom line. If I make $1000 a month and I have the choice to buy a $100 cue that is made outside the USA and a $150 cue that is made in the USA and you tell me that it's morally better to buy the $150 cue I am going to ask you why I should donate $50 to the American cue maker?

Why can't I buy the $100 cue and donate the $50 to whom I choose to, or spend it on my wife and kids?

Like with all most all import products, they are never advertised as an import, and the sales personal in most cases either do not know what they are selling, or intentionally do not bring up the subject unless asked
.

Primarily because of false stereotypes and stigmas attached to imports by zealots.

Even the brand names of the items do not really hint at the items origin and this is part of the Marketing program designed by the company having these cues built abroad.

Are they supposed to? If I said Fellini Cases what does that conjure up in your mind? To me it evokes old world Italian craftsmanship and I see an old Italian leather worker toiling at the bench carefully shaping the leather.

Of course the reality was that Fellini cases were made in Texas by Bob, Ann and Stephen.

However, every import cue and case does have a distinguishing mark that identifies them as an import. By law they all must have a sticker attached to the Cue or Case that identifies the country of origin, now if you wear glasses you may have to look close because these stickers are small, but again by law they must be present. The wholesaler and the retailer can not legally remove these stickers, only the consumer can remove this tag or sticker.

True. But it happens anyway that the stickers are removed. So the discerning consumer can do a little research and quickly find out where any product is made, including the ones which carry a "made in USA" brand but actually has nearly 50% and sometimes more of the parts made elsewhere. Or the "made in USA" products which are 90% finished outside the USA.

So, if you choose to buy American inspect what you are buying and ask questions before you buy that way you will get what you want.[/QUOTE]

Good point. And perhaps the companies that charge you more for the products that they produce in the USA will also pay you for the time you spend researching them. I would also advise people who wish to advocate a "buy American" policy which is communist in nature to go deeper and buy from companies that not only produce in America but those which don't make enormous profits and pay out major millions to their executives.

I mean if we are going to espouse communist ideas (such as "Buy American) and tell everyone to follow them then lets go all the way and impose our collective will on everyone. Bring it all the way back to the local level and impose a ban on buying anything outside of a five mile radius without a necessity permit.

I will go on Amazon.com and buy a copy of Atlas Shrugged and send it to the first person who responds to this thread that they believe in a buy American policy but will promise to at least read the book. Warning, it is long, very long, it took me several weeks to get through it, but it truly opened my eyes as pertains to this discussion.
 

manwon

"WARLOCK 1"
Silver Member
But it happens anyway that the stickers are removed

John like I said if a Wholesaler or a Retailer remove those stickers they are in Violation of Federal law, in fact not to many years ago Cue and Case had such a problem with a shipment that was stuck in Customs. This was not a small thing either there was more than Million Dollars in merchandise involved, and it was all do to a Mistake made in China where the stickers were not placed on the items being exported. The reason, I am aware of this is because about $2000 worth of Merchandise in the shippment was my order.

I would also suspect that it applies to the cases you make and export from China, is this not correct John.
 
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John Barton

New member
But it happens anyway that the stickers are removed

John like I said if a Wholesaler or a Retailer remove those stickers they are in Violation of Federal law, in fact not to many years ago Cue and Case had such a problem with a shipment that was stuck in Customs. This was not a small thing either there was more than Million Dollars in merchandise involved, and it was all do to a Mistake made in China where the stickers were not placed on the items being exported. The reason, I am aware of this is because about $2000 worth of Merchandise in the shippment was my order.

I would also suspect that it applies to the cases you make and export from China, is this not correct John.

I didn't say it is not the law. It is. The law applies to imports and it's the same for goods imported to other countries - when goods that are "made in USA" go to other countries then they are required by law to carry some kind of notice on them as to the country of origin.

However here is the downside to making believe that "made in USA" automatically means "better quality" - in China retailers and manufacturers often put "made in USA" tags on domestically made goods.

The little tag or sticker IS prescribed by law. That's clear. But what is not prescribed by law (although I think it is to a degree for some products) is the amount of "made in USA" that is actually IN a product, or the AMOUNT of "made in China" that is in a product.

To answer your question about Sterling's products, I have just recently made it so that ALL of the cases Sterling carries have a tag sewn into the case permanently on four sides that reads "Superior Quality - Made in China by Sterling Gaming"

We are currently making several thousand cases and each one will carry this tag easily found and seen by any consumer.

It does happen that goods are made without proper marking. Just about every importer has had it happen to them at some point or another. That doesn't mean that the marking does not get removed at some point by accident or deliberately so.

Which is why there should be no such thing as a country of origin sticker. In the grand scheme of things in a global economy it's meaningless and easily faked. All it does is lead to the kind of fraud and deception you point to. Not all laws are good laws and this is one of them.

Why not? Because people twist it to mean more than it means. "Made in China" ONLY means made in China. Nothing more nothing less. Made in the USA only means made in the the USA nothing more and nothing less.

Sterling Gaming employs 14 people. It is an American company. If you buy from Sterling Gaming you are helping to feed 14 American families. Sterling sells products that are made in the USA and products made in Mexico, Japan, China, and Canada and Belgium.

Last point: For all of you who advocate buying American does that also mean no Simonis Cloth? No Aramith balls? No Italian Slate for your pool tables? No Canadian maple or African ebony for your pool cues? No Japanese tips for your cues?

And yes, before someone points it out again, I work in China, it's on the front of my website, www.jbcases.com, and it's clear that I personally benefit from the fact that people do buy goods that are made in China and imported into the USA. But plenty of people who live and work in the USA feel the same way I do.

As a person who has been on every side of this issue with my own business in Colorado, my own business in Germany, and my own business in China I am qualified to be in this discussion despite the obvious conflict of interest. Since it's just a discussion and I am not lobbying Congress to pass a law in my favor I think it's ok.

John
 

measureman

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
I have a question regarding the "made in stickers". Mcdermott has a couple of models that are started in China and finished here (not the Lucky or Star cues) and they say Made In America right on their website. What sticker do they put on them?
 

ratcues

No yodeling, please.
Silver Member
I don't think this whole argument is really about Chinese cues vs American cues. It is more of the "Walmartization" of America and its consumers. Why buy from the "mom and pop" stores when you can go get the "same" thing at Super-mega-store for half the price? It doesn't matter where it was made. Companies are going to make them as cheap as the consumer will let them. When it falls apart, who cares, it only cost $XX and it lasted Z number of years. I'll just go buy a new one. Cost vs benefit analysis.... Most cost less than the repair work needed.

Custom cue makers are the mom and pop's of the industry.
 

bdcues

AzB Silver Member
Silver Member
Please take the time to look up who Harry Binswanger is. His phd is in philosophy not ecominics. At MIT he founded a group called Radials for Capitalism. Now he is heavily involved in the Objectivist movement and if you care to do the research there is more than one flaw with the piece that John quoted for you. He (Binswanger) believes that the US should have completely open immigration, maintaining that the US is underpopulated and that we should attack Iran and implement a regime change.
 

John Barton

New member
I don't think this whole argument is really about Chinese cues vs American cues. It is more of the "Walmartization" of America and its consumers. Why buy from the "mom and pop" stores when you can go get the "same" thing at Super-mega-store for half the price? It doesn't matter where it was made. Companies are going to make them as cheap as the consumer will let them. When it falls apart, who cares, it only cost $XX and it lasted Z number of years. I'll just go buy a new one. Cost vs benefit analysis.... Most cost less than the repair work needed.

Custom cue makers are the mom and pop's of the industry.

I would bet that an awful lot of people who buy import cues have spent a lot over the years on things that don't even need to be repaired. Like new wraps, new leather stack wraps, expensive layered tips, new ferrules, new shafts. I don't think that most people see a cue as a disposable item no matter where it comes from.

I still maintain however that the Wal-Mart comparison doesn't apply because people maintain that Wal Mart forces mom and pops out of business but in cue making the amount of repair shops and small cue makers has grown along with the amount of imports.

Can we agree on that?
 

John Barton

New member
Please take the time to look up who Harry Binswanger is. His phd is in philosophy not ecominics. At MIT he founded a group called Radials for Capitalism. Now he is heavily involved in the Objectivist movement and if you care to do the research there is more than one flaw with the piece that John quoted for you. He (Binswanger) believes that the US should have completely open immigration, maintaining that the US is underpopulated and that we should attack Iran and implement a regime change.

What are the flaws with what he wrote? Let's discuss the content instead of the person who wrote it.
 

ratcues

No yodeling, please.
Silver Member
I still maintain however that the Wal-Mart comparison doesn't apply because people maintain that Wal Mart forces mom and pops out of business but in cue making the amount of repair shops and small cue makers has grown along with the amount of imports.

Can we agree on that?

No. Walmart does not force mom and pops out of business. The consumer does. As you say, the consumer votes with their money and buys from Walmart just as players turn to imported cues as opposed to buying from a cuemaker. How? I'm glad you asked. Walmart lowers their prices, in any given area, until local businesses go under, then they start bumping the prices back up until new competition arises. The cycle starts over. Still, it is not Walmart forcing anyone out of business. Imported cues, in a way, follow the same business model. Capitalism at its finest.

The fact that there are more cuemakers has little to do with the amount of imports. It has more to do with the access to information, as we discussed before. Cue repairs are separate from the point you are trying to make.
 

John Barton

New member
No. Walmart does not force mom and pops out of business. The consumer does. As you say, the consumer votes with their money and buys from Walmart just as players turn to imported cues as opposed to buying from a cuemaker. How? I'm glad you asked. Walmart lowers their prices, in any given area, until local businesses go under, then they start bumping the prices back up until new competition arises. The cycle starts over. Still, it is not Walmart forcing anyone out of business. Imported cues, in a way, follow the same business model. Capitalism at its finest.

The fact that there are more cuemakers has little to do with the amount of imports. It has more to do with the access to information, as we discussed before. Cue repairs are separate from the point you are trying to make.

Actually there have been plenty of businesses that say that they do better when a Wal-Mart opens up. One example I clearly remember is a paint store that gets a lot of business from Wal-Mart through traffic in the strip mall that is increased by a Wal-Mart being there as well as from referrals from Wal Mart employees when they don't have the paint a customer wants.

There is the saying that a rising tide lifts all boats.

I can certainly agree that access to information makes it easier to get into the cue making business. But once they are in business how many stay in business? It's contradictory to say that imports force small cue makers out of business when there are more small cue makers than ever doing business, as in selling enough cues to finance their cue making. If a certain percentage of small cue makers are not financing their cue maker but are subsidizing it with their day jobs then aren't they as much of a problem to full time cue makers as imports are?

By the way, I was a manager of a successful Mom and Pop grocery store that has been in business long before Wal-Mart and other big box stores came to town. The owner of the store also owns the local mom and pop feed store and the local mom and pop hardware store and they are ten miles from the Super Wal Mart and business is still strong. Maybe they are an anomaly but I am sure that they are still in business because, like custom cue makers, they offer the kind of service that Wal Mart and sellers of pre-fab cues don't.

I guess we can just agree that we view the economics of this differently. Although we are both in the industry and both of us have our feet in both the production and custom sides we just feel differently about cause and effect.

Thanks for the conversation.
 
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